Any Undeserved Norris Trophy winners?

[The Panther]

I "hate" players who completely ignore the primary responsibility of their position.

Can I ask what you consider the "primary responsibility" of a forward? Clearly, in your definition, either Bob Gainey or Mario Lemieux was ignoring his primary responsibility.

 

[quoipourquoi]

the corollary of this thread: seasons where a defenceman deserved the hart trophy (but didn’t win it).

ones that i saw: 1990 bourque, 95 coffey, 2003 macinnis. i feel like there must be a year in the late 70s where it should have gone to potvin.

The 2003 Norris is definitely one of the ones where I think a misread of plus-minus as a defensive statistic carried the wrong player across the finish line.

Lidstrom: 99 ES GF, 59 ES GA (+40)
MacInnis: 82 ES GF, 60 ES GA (+22)

Comparable even-strength defensive numbers despite St. Louis having a .892 save percentage (29th in the NHL) to Detroit’s .914.

Added to that, MacInnis produced more offensively, so it’s not like the gap in GF can be wholly attributed to Lidstrom.

I wouldn’t say Lidstrom was an undeserving winner, but he was the wrong choice that year (*cough* and a few others *cough*). Still, a loaded year for Hart talent out West (Forsberg, Naslund, Turco), but you could definitely make a case for MacInnis on the ballot.

 

[danincanada]

The 2003 Norris is definitely one of the ones where I think a misread of plus-minus as a defensive statistic carried the wrong player across the finish line.

Lidstrom: 99 ES GF, 59 ES GA (+40)
MacInnis: 82 ES GF, 60 ES GA (+22)

Comparable even-strength defensive numbers despite St. Louis having a .892 save percentage (29th in the NHL) to Detroit’s .914.

Added to that, MacInnis produced more offensively, so it’s not like the gap in GF can be wholly attributed to Lidstrom.

I wouldn’t say Lidstrom was an undeserving winner, but he was the wrong choice that year (*cough* and a few others *cough*). Still, a loaded year for Hart talent out West (Forsberg, Naslund, Turco), but you could definitely make a case for MacInnis on the ballot.

Meh, Lidstrom played nearly 2.5 more minutes per game than Al, and was +15 better than any teammate, and that teammate was most regular partner that season, living legend, Mathieu Dandenault, who was +25.

I felt sorry for MacInnis cause he had a hell of a year but the voters got it right, having Lidstrom with 42 first place votes to 20 for Mac. The Hart voting is just another example of it being a somewhat confusing award.

Edit: If you delve into the ice-time even more MacInnis actually received 1:09 more PP time per game while Lidstrom had heavier SH and ES minutes. Lidstrom playing 1,513:25 versus MacInnis' 1,369:21 ES minutes over the course of the season might help add a little more context to your ES numbers.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I just struggle to find a case for MacInnis over Forsberg in 2003, though I'm sure you watched more Western Conference hockey than I did.

to add to qpq's points, giving macinnis the hart is a "valuable" vote, not a best player vote. though, tbh, he was pretty close to both.

i followed the west more closely than usual that year, though i was living in non-NHL US market at the time so i only saw games when i could. but i did follow the conversation really closely, because that was the year that vancouver broke into the detroit-colorado-dallas-st louis hegemon. (those four teams had owned the home ice seeds in the west the previous five seasons, except one year that phoenix finished one and a half wins ahead of st louis.)

basically, macinnis was everything on that team and carried them to a 99 point season, the fifth seed, in a very competitive western conference (edmonton was the 8th seed, and would have been an OTL away from 5th in the east).

he was partnered with a rookie (barrett jackman, whom he helped to the calder) and his goalies were brent johnson and fred brathwaite. the rest of the d was alex khavanov, bryce salvador, jeff finley, and christian laflamme. pronger played 5 games. macinnis kept that team middle of the pack in goals against.

the offence speaks for itself. he was one point out of 30th in the league, led all defencemen in scoring, was exactly as dominant on the PP as you'd expect.

but defensively, every source at the time said he was lidstrom-esque. i don't want to diminish how polished and NHL-ready jackman was, because he was really impressive. but i think anytime a rookie steps directly onto a first pair and looks like a ten year vet, you have to credit his partner for simplifying the game for him and helping him look like that. and he played 27 minutes a night as a 39 year old. i guess you don't get bonus points for being old, but i don't think there was a more valuable player that year.

not to say forsberg wasn't awesome, of course. i just think if you replaced forsberg with, say, doug weight, that avs team is fine. if you replaced macinnis with, say, gonchar or hell forsberg's teammate rob blake, and that team is drafting eric staal in june.

 

[billybudd]

Rod Langway had a pair of brass balls. You have to be a brave man to be the only D in the league who doesn't wear a helmet. McTavish didn't, either, but McTavish's job wasn't to stand between a goaltender and a shooter and didn't so much have to worry about getting clobbered into the glass by a forechecker.

 

[KMart27]

Rod Langway had a pair of brass balls. You have to be a brave man to be the only D in the league who doesn't wear a helmet. McTavish didn't, either, but McTavish's job wasn't to stand between a goaltender and a shooter and didn't so much have to worry about getting clobbered into the glass by a forechecker.

How long was Langway the only defenseman to not wear a helmet?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Meh, Lidstrom played nearly 2.5 more minutes per game than Al, and was +15 better than any teammate, and that teammate was most regular partner that season, living legend, Mathieu Dandenault, who was +25.

I felt sorry for MacInnis cause he had a hell of a year but the voters got it right, having Lidstrom with 42 first place votes to 20 for Mac. The Hart voting is just another example of it being a somewhat confusing award.

Edit: If you delve into the ice-time even more MacInnis actually received 1:09 more PP time per game while Lidstrom had heavier SH and ES minutes. Lidstrom playing 1,513:25 versus MacInnis' 1,369:21 ES minutes over the course of the season might help add a little more context to your ES numbers.

Lidstrom's TOI lead over every defenseman other than Adrian Aucoin of all people was massive: 2002-03 NHL Skater Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[quoipourquoi]

not to say forsberg wasn't awesome, of course. i just think if you replaced forsberg with, say, doug weight, that avs team is fine. if you replaced macinnis with, say, gonchar or hell forsberg's teammate rob blake, and that team is drafting eric staal in june.

Not going to knock Forsberg at all, because he was a beast when Joe Sakic was out, but the Avalanche went 20-3-4 with Patrick Roy (.945) from January 20th through March 31st, so a lot of the Avalanche’s ascent in the standings was Roy digging himself out of the hole he put them into before the All-Star break. I think the visual of Colorado stealing the division title out from underneath Vancouver at the same time Forsberg and Hejduk slipped in and took the Art Ross and Rocket Richard Trophies was too appealing of a narrative though. With respect to Pavol Demitra, MacInnis could have used some help like that.

 

[billybudd]

How long was Langway the only defenseman to not wear a helmet?

Don't know. Couple years at least.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

How long was Langway the only defenseman to not wear a helmet?

If I recall correctly, he started with a helmet when he was with the Habs and then took it off when he went to Washington.

 

[Voight]

I don't award Norris's to players who enjoyed playing on MULTIPLE of, the most dominant teams of all time. With the all time greatest offensive forwards ever, to boot.

Nor will I consider for beat defensemen, players who stylistically, are nothing more than a 4th F. Ignoring the impact of positive defensive play is a non starter for me.

Coffey is vastly overrated. I've said this for a long time.

Then I guess you didn't like Karlsson winning 2 Norris'? (I didn't)

the corollary of this thread: seasons where a defenceman deserved the hart trophy (but didn’t win it).

ones that i saw: 1990 bourque, 95 coffey, 2003 macinnis. i feel like there must be a year in the late 70s where it should have gone to potvin.

I don't want to say its criminal that Bourque never won a Hart given the competition he had for it, but if there was ever one guy who deserved a Hart.....

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

How long was Langway the only defenseman to not wear a helmet?

the last defensemen i remember not wearing a helmet were the three guys who won norrises between robinson and coffey, and brad marsh.

and as for robinson himself, i'm not sure when he started wearing a helmet, but he definitely had one on in the early '90s when he played for LA.

langway, wilson, carlyle, and marsh all retired after the '93 season.

 

[Big Phil]

I don't award Norris's to players who enjoyed playing on MULTIPLE of, the most dominant teams of all time. With the all time greatest offensive forwards ever, to boot.

Nor will I consider for beat defensemen, players who stylistically, are nothing more than a 4th F. Ignoring the impact of positive defensive play is a non starter for me.

Coffey is vastly overrated. I've said this for a long time.

I am one of those guys who is a big Coffey apologist. I think time hasn't always been kind to him in the mold of Phil Esposito. For some reason these are two players that have gotten more flack on here than they should and I don't get it.

Coffey gambled a lot in the regular season, that's true. But with his speed how often was he out of position? And in the playoffs, or the Canada Cups, can anyone think of a time where he made a huge defensive error? We know the big play in the 1984 Canada Cup that led to the goal. I honestly don't know how many players in NHL history could make that play. Break up a two-on-one in overtime, have the confidence and calmness to just fluidly start skating the other way, carry it deep into the opposing zone, get the puck back to you at the blue line with a wrist shot and get an assist on the winner that Bossy tips.

Honestly, how many defensemen in NHL history make that play? Most would just slap the puck away once they break up the two on one. Or most would just skate a couple of strides and see a bit of pressure and dump the puck down the ice. Not Coffey. He just takes it the other way so effortlessly all in one motion. That goal in the 1996 World cup vs. Sweden which was in overtime was another one generated by a Coffey rush. Fleury's goal. Who does that in double overtime? Paul Coffey does.

Remember, it was Doug Wilson who made that awful, awful pinch in the 1984 Canada Cup game to leave Coffey alone. I don't know what Wilson was doing. He ignored the puck, basically just rubbed the Russian forward out at the blue line and left his partner out to dry. Tonelli and Bossy didn't have a chance to get back in time to help but Coffey bailed them out.

I've said it before, but between Gretzky and Lemieux you had Coffey as their teammate for 9 out of 10 of the highest scoring seasons of all-time. Only Gretzky in 1989 didn't have Coffey as his defenseman. Is that a coincidence? I don't think it is.

Thanks for noticing....? I actually was trying to change the avatar to Maurice Richard, but when doing so I saw this photo (which is on my blog) and just decided to use it.

Is that Luc Robitaille in your avatar? Hard to tell from a side profile though.

I’m not sure Weber vs Karlsson is a great example. A better comparison would be if Marc-Edouard Vlasic had won the Norris over Karlsson.

But did Vlasic ever carry a team like Langway? Vlasic is always a Foote-type level of defenseman in my mind. I don't know if he can turn around a team like Langway did. This is why I think the Langway Norrises shouldn't get the flack they do. He took a team that was bad and turned them into at least a serious contender. Other pieces came into place after that, but he started it. I just don't know another example of a defenseman who was that dominant defensively without the offense.

 

[KMart27]

the last defensemen i remember not wearing a helmet were the three guys who won norrises between robinson and coffey, and brad marsh.

and as for robinson himself, i'm not sure when he started wearing a helmet, but he definitely had one on in the early '90s when he played for LA.

langway, wilson, carlyle, and marsh all retired after the '93 season.

It does appear that all four of them finished their careers without a helmet unlike Robinson who was wearing one with the Kings.

 

[The Panther]

Robinson was wearing a helmet with the Habs at least by 1986-87:

(It's funny, I never think of him as a helmet-less player because I started watching NHL in 1986-87...)

 

[The Panther]

I am one of those guys who is a big Coffey apologist. I think time hasn't always been kind to him in the mold of Phil Esposito. For some reason these are two players that have gotten more flack on here than they should and I don't get it.

Yeah, it's odd. Coffey was probably the greatest skater ever, was maybe the third or fourth best passer ever, was capable of sometimes winning games by himself, was considered in his Norris seasons to have been better than Bourque / Chelios / Lidstrom, and was an impressively "winning" player wherever he went, yet on this Forum people are always running him down in somewhat revisionist fashion.

Coffey gambled a lot in the regular season, that's true. But with his speed how often was he out of position? And in the playoffs, or the Canada Cups, can anyone think of a time where he made a huge defensive error?

As an Oilers' historian, I can. Coffey's challenge at times wasn't so much being "out of position" -- as you say, he was so fast and mobile, he could get to anywhere on the ice faster than anybody else -- but rather, his challenge was zone defence, at which he was quite poor. When forced into a zone defence role, he sometimes looked lost. Man-to-man, he was fine, but his tendency was to position himself against one forward and follow that forward around the zone, even if the forward was thirty feet from the net. So, Coffey was frequently out of position in that he was defending rather purposelessly in the zone.

The best example of peak-era Coffey struggling is the 1986 Edmonton-Calgary series. He did come up with a big play in game six that helped keep Edmonton alive (so who knows? maybe they were eliminated that night if he weren't there), but he committed some fouls in game seven. He missed Gretzky's pass on the PP in the 1st period, leading to Calgary's first (short-handed) goal. Then, he and Huddy looked terrible 'defending' Peplinski in the 2nd -- they allowed him a shot and then both allowed him to drive the net and bang-in his own rebound. So, he was partly responsibly for both Calgary "real" goals in that game, and the Oilers lost 3-2 and were eliminated.

The thing is, though, if you're on an offensively-inclined team and scoring 120 points a year, and another All-Star is on a more balanced team and scoring 80 points a year, how many goals against does Coffey have to indirectly "cause" before the difference is made up? Look at the 1982-83 season: Coffey was on the ice for 117 goals against Edmonton, the highest-scoring team, and went +52. In Boston, Ray Bourque was usually on the ice for around 90 goals against in the eighties (sometimes as high as 120+). To my thinking, if Coffey created 30 more goals against than Bourque and was responsible for 30 more goals against than Bourque, where's the difference? (To be clear, I rate Bourque higher than Coffey, but I'm saying the difference isn't as extreme as some people think.)

Is that Luc Robitaille in your avatar? Hard to tell from a side profile though.

Ha, it's actually me!

 

[Big Phil]

It would have been interesting to see whether his 78-79 would have done it had it not also been Trottier's best season.

I honestly think Potvin could have won it in 1979. That was definitely not a bad pick, but still hard to argue against Trottier. There are two years where Potvin was close to the Hart. 1976 he finished a distant 2nd to Clarke. Sort of hard to build a case against Clarke too. In 1979 he was 4th. Trottier was the clear choice that year by the voters and then Lafleur, Dionne and then Potvin were all sort of the next tier.

the last defensemen i remember not wearing a helmet were the three guys who won norrises between robinson and coffey, and brad marsh.

and as for robinson himself, i'm not sure when he started wearing a helmet, but he definitely had one on in the early '90s when he played for LA.

langway, wilson, carlyle, and marsh all retired after the '93 season.

Robinson had one in 1989 by the pictures but not in 1986.

 

[Big Phil]

As an Oilers' historian, I can. Coffey's challenge at times wasn't so much being "out of position" -- as you say, he was so fast and mobile, he could get to anywhere on the ice faster than anybody else -- but rather, his challenge was zone defence, at which he was quite poor. When forced into a zone defence role, he sometimes looked lost. Man-to-man, he was fine, but his tendency was to position himself against one forward and follow that forward around the zone, even if the forward was thirty feet from the net. So, Coffey was frequently out of position in that he was defending rather purposelessly in the zone.

Yeah that's fair. That is pretty much how I see it with Coffey too. He wasn't irresponsible or anything. He had nice hands to poke the puck away and such and could and would get back when he had to in time. I can distinctively remember Coffey in the 1987 Canada Cup vs. the Russians gliding to get back into position...............backwards! No joke, he just skated back nonchalantly. If I ever do a binge watch of that final series I'll post it on here because it is funny to see.

But I can think of times like the 1996 World Cup. I can remember him struggling to contain Leclair in front of the net and such. In fact, on Amonte's game winning goal in Game 3 Coffey does exactly what you mentioned and just tails Leclair and actually has him pinned down on the ice as the goal is being scored. Not that others weren't responsible on the ice either. Gretzky got badly outworked in his own zone prior to the goal. Linden somehow got outmuscled by Bryan Smolinski which led to Team USA getting the puck in the Canadian zone and Damphousse just ignored Derian Hatcher on the point who assisted on the goal. But if Coffey had a struggle I would say maybe being over matched by a bigger forward. It wasn't as if he was soft, of course, but maybe a bit like you said, he just sort of clung to a guy at all costs.

The best example of peak-era Coffey struggling is the 1986 Edmonton-Calgary series.

Yeah, that comes to mind right away. 1986 wasn't his finest moment, not even offensively either. Poor Coffey got a lot of flack for that to the point that Pocklington said some nasty things about him when his contract came up after 1987. I mean, you just won the Cup and you have Paul Coffey on your team who you can thank in part and you STILL lash out at him. He should have stayed out of it.

The thing is, though, if you're on an offensively-inclined team and scoring 120 points a year, and another All-Star is on a more balanced team and scoring 80 points a year, how many goals against does Coffey have to indirectly "cause" before the difference is made up? Look at the 1982-83 season: Coffey was on the ice for 117 goals against Edmonton, the highest-scoring team, and went +52. In Boston, Ray Bourque was usually on the ice for around 90 goals against in the eighties (sometimes as high as 120+). To my thinking, if Coffey created 30 more goals against than Bourque and was responsible for 30 more goals against than Bourque, where's the difference? (To be clear, I rate Bourque higher than Coffey, but I'm saying the difference isn't as extreme as some people think.)

That's the thing, he more than made up the difference, and then some. Even in his post Detroit career was only when it started to narrow. Even then in 2000 with Carolina of all teams he is on the ice for 101 goals and 71 against and he is definitely NOT Paul Coffey anymore by then. Look at some of the numbers of when he was in Edmonton. And he was killing penalties his entire career too so you can factor that in a bit.

Ha, it's actually me!

Well there you go, haha

 

[The Panther]

Even then in 2000 with Carolina of all teams he is on the ice for 101 goals and 71 against and he is definitely NOT Paul Coffey anymore by then.

It's bizarre to think that the current NHL coach of Patrick Laine (Paul Maurice) once coached Paul Coffey in the late-90s...

 

[Hockey Outsider]

to add to qpq's points, giving macinnis the hart is a "valuable" vote, not a best player vote. though, tbh, he was pretty close to both.

i followed the west more closely than usual that year, though i was living in non-NHL US market at the time so i only saw games when i could. but i did follow the conversation really closely, because that was the year that vancouver broke into the detroit-colorado-dallas-st louis hegemon. (those four teams had owned the home ice seeds in the west the previous five seasons, except one year that phoenix finished one and a half wins ahead of st louis.)

basically, macinnis was everything on that team and carried them to a 99 point season, the fifth seed, in a very competitive western conference (edmonton was the 8th seed, and would have been an OTL away from 5th in the east).

he was partnered with a rookie (barrett jackman, whom he helped to the calder) and his goalies were brent johnson and fred brathwaite. the rest of the d was alex khavanov, bryce salvador, jeff finley, and christian laflamme. pronger played 5 games. macinnis kept that team middle of the pack in goals against.

the offence speaks for itself. he was one point out of 30th in the league, led all defencemen in scoring, was exactly as dominant on the PP as you'd expect.

but defensively, every source at the time said he was lidstrom-esque. i don't want to diminish how polished and NHL-ready jackman was, because he was really impressive. but i think anytime a rookie steps directly onto a first pair and looks like a ten year vet, you have to credit his partner for simplifying the game for him and helping him look like that. and he played 27 minutes a night as a 39 year old. i guess you don't get bonus points for being old, but i don't think there was a more valuable player that year.

not to say forsberg wasn't awesome, of course. i just think if you replaced forsberg with, say, doug weight, that avs team is fine. if you replaced macinnis with, say, gonchar or hell forsberg's teammate rob blake, and that team is drafting eric staal in june.

Great post. I think the voters got it right - Lidstrom was the better defenseman (and therefore won the Norris in a relatively close two-man race), while MacInnis was more valuable to his team (and therefore finished higher in Hart voting - though he should have finished higher still).