Any Undeserved Norris Trophy winners?

[ChiTownPhilly]

In 1962-1963, a 38(!) year-old Doug Harvey had 4G 35A 39P [latter two numbers were league-leading, for Defensemen] and was minus (-) 1 for a hapless, dozen-games under .500 New York Rangers team, but didn't even get a whiff of the Norris Trophy. All right, I get that he'd won 7 of the last 8 Norrises, and writers wanted to change-it-up. So... do they go with:

Carl Brewer, who had one of his two best years ever, leading the league in plus/minus and was a key part of Toronto's Prince of Wales trophy campaign?

His teammate Tim Horton, who got the tougher assignments, scored as many points as Brewer, committed far fewer penalties and was possibly his team's MVP that year?

35-year-old Bill Gadsby, who was second only to Harvey in points by a Defenseman while laboring for a middle-of-the-pack Detroit team?

Hell, even Leo Boivin had an interesting Al Rollins-esque case (not that he would have been a great choice, either), and had as many points as the Norris winner while toiling for Boston in their basement-seepage days?

No, your 1962-63 Norris trophy winner was Pierre Pilote, minus (-) 4 for a team that just barely missed the Prince of Wales trophy. 26 points, 10 of which were on a (mostly) Mikita-Hull power-play. The voting results smack of a perfect (shit)-storm:

1) We're tired of voting for Harvey, let's do something different.
2) Toronto Defensemen split support.
3) That guy from Chicago had a pretty good year last year, let's hook-him-up this year.

So, we are left dealing with the "but-three-consecutive-Norris-trophies" narrative for Pilote, in perpetuity. But that's not the biggest travesty. The biggest travesty is that Harvey was NOT an end-of-season All-Star in 62-63. Unbelievable f***shit.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The history of this award seems pretty clean overall. Blake in 98 might look bad in hindsight as Lidstrom turned out to be a legendary player but I don't know how the talk of the town was like then. 23 goals for a defenseman of his type is damn impressive as well. Kind of like the Shea Weber of his day.

What about Harry Howell? Although it seems like it was a pretty drab year...

I remember Blake being a controversial winner. Some people really liked the way he played the game, others felt he was very overrated... kind of a Phaneuf or Doughty type figure. That year he happened to be juxtaposed against Lidstrom, who was showcased in consecutive Finals and was a darling of the “thinking man” crowd. Naturally there were strong opinions about which of them should win, and those opinions tended to fall along cultural lines (both hockey culture and general culture).

To me, ‘98 kind of helps balance out Lidstrom’s last Norris, which was very much a reputation trophy.

 

[biotk]

Talking about the Norris trophy's history: Are there any winners you think were undeserving?

I'll just get Randy Carlyle out of the way -- on the 1980-81 Penguins, Carlyle had an impressive 83 points but an unimpressive -16. His team had the fourth-worst defence in the NHL. Meanwhile, Denis Potvin of the Isles had 76 points and was +39, but finished second. His team had the fourth-best defence in the NHL. Larry Robinson was third with 50 scoring points and a +47.

Is the Norris Trophy a team award?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

In 1962-1963, a 38(!) year-old Doug Harvey had 4G 35A 39P [latter two numbers were league-leading, for Defensemen] and was minus (-) 1 for a hapless, dozen-games under .500 New York Rangers team, but didn't even get a whiff of the Norris Trophy. All right, I get that he'd won 7 of the last 8 Norrises, and writers wanted to change-it-up. So... do they go with:

Carl Brewer, who had one of his two best years ever, leading the league in plus/minus and was a key part of Toronto's Prince of Wales trophy campaign?

His teammate Tim Horton, who got the tougher assignments, scored as many points as Brewer, committed far fewer penalties and was possibly his team's MVP that year?

35-year-old Bill Gadsby, who was second only to Harvey in points by a Defenseman while laboring for a middle-of-the-pack Detroit team?

Hell, even Leo Boivin had an interesting Al Rollins-esque case (not that he would have been a great choice, either), and had as many points as the Norris winner while toiling for Boston in their basement-seepage days?

No, your 1962-63 Norris trophy winner was Pierre Pilote, minus (-) 4 for a team that just barely missed the Prince of Wales trophy. 26 points, 10 of which were on a (mostly) Mikita-Hull power-play. The voting results smack of a perfect (****)-storm:

1) We're tired of voting for Harvey, let's do something different.
2) Toronto Defensemen split support.
3) That guy from Chicago had a pretty good year last year, let's hook-him-up this year.

So, we are left dealing with the "but-three-consecutive-Norris-trophies" narrative for Pilote, in perpetuity. But that's not the biggest travesty. The biggest travesty is that Harvey was NOT an end-of-season All-Star in 62-63. Unbelievable ********.

Just to be clear, there were no official plus/minus stats at that time. Coaches may have had the numbers but I'm pretty sure voters for the Norris did not.

That said, Pilote winning does seem like it was a bad choice.

Also an oddity of the 1962-63 season, there were no Montreal Canadiens to be found in any of the Awards voting.

 

[Voight]

Subban

Yea, I thought Suter got jobbed here. Guy was a beast that lockout season, IIRC he played an insane amount of minutes too.

Due Drew, Lidström's last Norris are the ones I think of instantly.
That said I believe Norris is one of the more fairly handed out trophies.

While 2016 may not have been his best season, there were at least 1 or 2 other seasons where he should have won.

Drew Doughty's is the only one in recent history that sticks out. Only player to win, in recent memory, on a team that didn't make the playoffs. That and he was being promoted heavily by the PHWA from before the season and all the way through it. Wasn't even clear he should have been a finalist with amazing years by Karlsson, Klingberg, and Letang as well as Krug and Gostisbhere.

The non playoff thing is wrong, but Jesus you really don't like the guy.

As for the OP - Weber should have won back to back 2011 +2012. Clearly the best defenseman in the league both seasons but lost out to Lidstrom's career award and Karlsson scoring a bunch of points (Weber had more goals tho).

Doughty IMO was robbed in 2015 for the award.

 

[seventieslord]

"Phaneuf or Doughty" type figure? What a strange way to put it. I typically hear "Phaneuf or McCabe type", but Phaneuf and Doughty? What exactly is being implied here?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

three guys who played on the kings? idfk

personally i think a lot more precision is needed with that kind of player, which of course doughty is not.

on the spectrum of big pp shot physical defensemen, there are numerous lines between, say, phaneuf, kevin hatcher, mccabe and rob blake or shea weber.

in that morass between can’t skate backwards and chew gum at the same time and legitimate first team all-star whose defensive game is overrated are jovo, souray, aucoin, dave manson, iafrate, ron greschner, jerry korab, and today brent burns, byfuglien, john carlson, etc.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In 1962-1963, a 38(!) year-old Doug Harvey had 4G 35A 39P [latter two numbers were league-leading, for Defensemen] and was minus (-) 1 for a hapless, dozen-games under .500 New York Rangers team, but didn't even get a whiff of the Norris Trophy. All right, I get that he'd won 7 of the last 8 Norrises, and writers wanted to change-it-up. So... do they go with:

Carl Brewer, who had one of his two best years ever, leading the league in plus/minus and was a key part of Toronto's Prince of Wales trophy campaign?

His teammate Tim Horton, who got the tougher assignments, scored as many points as Brewer, committed far fewer penalties and was possibly his team's MVP that year?

35-year-old Bill Gadsby, who was second only to Harvey in points by a Defenseman while laboring for a middle-of-the-pack Detroit team?

Hell, even Leo Boivin had an interesting Al Rollins-esque case (not that he would have been a great choice, either), and had as many points as the Norris winner while toiling for Boston in their basement-seepage days?

No, your 1962-63 Norris trophy winner was Pierre Pilote, minus (-) 4 for a team that just barely missed the Prince of Wales trophy. 26 points, 10 of which were on a (mostly) Mikita-Hull power-play. The voting results smack of a perfect (****)-storm:

1) We're tired of voting for Harvey, let's do something different.
2) Toronto Defensemen split support.
3) That guy from Chicago had a pretty good year last year, let's hook-him-up this year.

So, we are left dealing with the "but-three-consecutive-Norris-trophies" narrative for Pilote, in perpetuity. But that's not the biggest travesty. The biggest travesty is that Harvey was NOT an end-of-season All-Star in 62-63. Unbelievable ********.

Harvey's shocking lack of award recognition in 1962-63, despite virtually the same stats as his Norris winning 1961-62, also on the Rangers, was examined on this forum before.

Edit: Thread here: Doug Harvey - 1963.

It seems his defensive play likely declined that year, and rumors of alcoholism may have also been a factor.

 

[tarheelhockey]

"Phaneuf or Doughty" type figure? What a strange way to put it. I typically hear "Phaneuf or McCabe type", but Phaneuf and Doughty? What exactly is being implied here?

The point wasn't to put any of these players on a tier together. Just to point at a couple of reasonably recent Norris finalists who made a lot of noise as "the next great defenseman" when they were young players, but also generated a lot of pushback around whether they were really deserving of a Norris.

Check out this thread from March 2015, how people perceived Doughty a year before he won his Norris:
How has Drew Doughty not won a Norris yet?
Lots of people who were comfortable ranking him among the top defenders in the league, but with a caveat that he wasn't quite elite at [insert reason] and therefore didn't deserve it over [insert favorite defenseman].

In Blake's case there was that feeling that he took a lot of big slapshots, threw a lot of big hits, showed up respectably in the playoffs... but just wasn't quite that good at either end of the ice to warrant a Norris. The trophy might have been more validating for him, except he had a very ugly playoffs that year while Lidstrom cruised to a dominant Cup win, and so the award announcement seemed to make people question even more loudly whether he had really risen to the top tier in the way that Lidstrom definitely did.

 

[tony d]

Carlyle in 1980-1981 is pretty bad. Denis Potvin should have won it that year.

 

[billybudd]

I thought Subban should have finished third in 2013.

 

[The Pale King]

To reframe the Doughty-Karlsson discussion somewhat: how many goals does a Karlsson- Jamie McBain pairing give up over the course of a season? And do the numbers improve much if you replace Mcbain with soon-to-retire Jeff Schultz late season? To quote the Simpsons McBain slightly out of context: "The goggles! They do nothing!"

Conversely, does a Doughty-Methot pairing allow even 15 goals at even-strength all year?

 

[JackSlater]

Carlyle in 1980-1981 is pretty bad. Denis Potvin should have won it that year.

If award voters in 1981 voted properly and Potvin won the Norris and Conn Smythe he would at least have a trophy case more reflective of his ability than he currently does

 

[Voight]

The point wasn't to put any of these players on a tier together. Just to point at a couple of reasonably recent Norris finalists who made a lot of noise as "the next great defenseman" when they were young players, but also generated a lot of pushback around whether they were really deserving of a Norris.

Check out this thread from March 2015, how people perceived Doughty a year before he won his Norris:
How has Drew Doughty not won a Norris yet?
Lots of people who were comfortable ranking him among the top defenders in the league, but with a caveat that he wasn't quite elite at [insert reason] and therefore didn't deserve it over [insert favorite defenseman].

In Blake's case there was that feeling that he took a lot of big slapshots, threw a lot of big hits, showed up respectably in the playoffs... but just wasn't quite that good at either end of the ice to warrant a Norris. The trophy might have been more validating for him, except he had a very ugly playoffs that year while Lidstrom cruised to a dominant Cup win, and so the award announcement seemed to make people question even more loudly whether he had really risen to the top tier in the way that Lidstrom definitely did.

While I don't think Blake was undeserving of his Norris, he always seems forgotten when people mention that group of 80s/90s defensemen. Always left behind.

 

[JackSlater]

While I don't think Blake was undeserving of his Norris, he always seems forgotten when people mention that group of 80s/90s defensemen. Always left behind.

He's more of a 90s/2000s defenceman to me. Pretty weak era for defencemen but Blake is probably a bit underrated these days.

 

[The Panther]

Is the Norris Trophy a team award?

Is the best defenceman on an NHL team not a part of the team? So, yes, partly it is.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

While 2016 may not have been his best season, there were at least 1 or 2 other seasons where he should have won.

Doughty IMO was robbed in 2015 for the award.

The funny thing is the dialogue around here leading up to the 2015 Norris was that Drew's team missed the playoffs, so he couldn't win the award.

Then in 2016 when that was flip-flopped, that same crowd tried to conveniently change their tune.

Now it's just revisionist history where Drew sucked and didn't deserve either when really he was absolutely dominant night in and night out and could have won both.

I don't necessarily like that arbitrary criteria, but that seems to be one of the affecting conditions around these award issues.

 

[psycat]

Yea, I thought Suter got jobbed here. Guy was a beast that lockout season, IIRC he played an insane amount of minutes too.



While 2016 may not have been his best season, there were at least 1 or 2 other seasons where he should have won.



The non playoff thing is wrong, but Jesus you really don't like the guy.

As for the OP - Weber should have won back to back 2011 +2012. Clearly the best defenseman in the league both seasons but lost out to Lidstrom's career award and Karlsson scoring a bunch of points (Weber had more goals tho).

Doughty IMO was robbed in 2015 for the award.

Nah Doughty was never robbed, there are seasons where he have a legitimate case though but not the year he won it.

 

[Voight]

The funny thing is the dialogue around here leading up to the 2015 Norris was that Drew's team missed the playoffs, so he couldn't win the award.

Then in 2016 when that was flip-flopped, that same crowd tried to conveniently change their tune.

Now it's just revisionist history where Drew sucked and didn't deserve either when really he was absolutely dominant night in and night out and could have won both.

I don't necessarily like that arbitrary criteria, but that seems to be one of the affecting conditions around these award issues.

Doughty is underrated on HFB. Seems theres a ton of people who hate him for no real reason.

Nah Doughty was never robbed, there are seasons where he have a legitimate case though but not the year he won it.

2015 was his year. Not that Karlsson was an awful choice, but Doughty was clearly the best defenseman that year.

 

[Big Phil]

While I don't think Blake was undeserving of his Norris, he always seems forgotten when people mention that group of 80s/90s defensemen. Always left behind.

As mentioned before, 1990s and 2000s more or less. But yeah, quite often forgotten. I know I am not the only person on here that puts Blake ahead of Niedermayer on an all-time list. Niedermayer didn't become an elite defenseman until he was 30 and it didn't last that long. Blake had a nice string of good years in a row and the voting shows that. Not the strongest era for Norris winners of course, but Blake is certainly right in the mix after Lidstrom.

 

[Beukeboom]

Lidstrom's last was very weak.

 

[Voight]

As mentioned before, 1990s and 2000s more or less. But yeah, quite often forgotten. I know I am not the only person on here that puts Blake ahead of Niedermayer on an all-time list. Niedermayer didn't become an elite defenseman until he was 30 and it didn't last that long. Blake had a nice string of good years in a row and the voting shows that. Not the strongest era for Norris winners of course, but Blake is certainly right in the mix after Lidstrom.

From 98-04 he finished 1,3,3,4,5,8,17 in Norris voting which is a solid run.

& I just noticed that his Norris winning year was actually the first year he ever received Norris votes/consideration. Interesting.

 

[crobro]

Rod Langway over PAUL coffey both years was insane

 

[quoipourquoi]

2015 was his year. Not that Karlsson was an awful choice, but Doughty was clearly the best defenseman that year.

As I recall, Mark Giordano was the heavy favorite until his injury - which occurred about a week into Ottawa’s 21-3-3 run to end the season.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Any year Coffey won.