Any Idiot Can Start A Budget Thread--Melnyk and Team Finances III

[Vesa Awesaka]

Well, the Sens problem isn't just the budget, it's money going to useless players.

We'll still have 8 defenseman signed to one ways next year, including an entirely superfluous Borowiecki making $1.1M against the cap. The you have Phillips, who is already a regular healthy scratch and is making $2.5M against the cap. Then Wiercioch, also a regular scratch who is making $2M. These guys combined will be costing us $5.6 million next year and at least two of them will be a scratch in every game. For that, you could have a legit top 4 defenceman. Murray's mismanagement in this respect is remarkable.

Why people have to say Boro makes an unnecessarily high amount of money when hes played solid in his limited amount of games this year? I dont feel the rookie dman should be held to the fire like the other guys.

 

[SuperDuper101]

Guys, please stop.

A very sober Eugene Melnyk, maybe a few months ago, talked about the internal budget and offered a few very valid points that most people have not heard or just refuse to believe. Although I have had a hard time with some of Euge's comments in the past, I find these points, in a sense justify being cheap to some extent.

Mika Zibanejad, Alex Chiasson, Mike Hoffman, JGP and Mark Stone are ALL RFA's next season. Also to note is that these guys are some of our best players.

So if..

Mika signs for 3.5ish, Chiasson for maybe 2.5-3, Mike Hoffman for 3.5-4, JGP for 3ish and Mark Stone for around 3.5 (if you want to argue potential salaries please dont, but my point will still probably stand),

That means that anywhere from basically between 15 and 18 million dollars would be added to our cap for next season. 55+15=70. Cap is projected around 73.

Then there is also Condra and Methot. Methot who, if he stays will likely be signing for 4.5-5.5, and Condra who if he doesn't get at least 2, will probably sign somewhere else. So best case scenario in terms of cheapest contracts would be another 6.5.

70+6.5=76.5

So we all know this is an impossibility. If anything, this is indicative of how well prepared we are for the future. Right now we literally have to trade 2 of our RFA's, and as Murray indicated in a recent interview, he wants another star.

Anyways it is obvious something will have to give, but be rest assured, we will be spending.

Another valid point Uncle Euge made was, "spend money on what?". Signing marginal UFA's in most cases is just a terrible call. Yeah I would of liked Pouliot too, but would any of you actually pay him 5.5? Clarkson? These deals are terrible, and who actually worth signing did we miss?

Toronto is an example of what happens when you decide that throwing money at the wall is going to win you games.

So all of this said, don't worry about the budget. he has no choice but to spend. The future at 55-60 mill a year is just not a possibility. Go Sens.

Except that you completely forgot all these players already have salaries. Even at 5.5M that's only a 2.5M bump for Methot.

Don't forget Neil, Smith, Phillips and Legwand may all be gone. So that's a good 9M that could easily come off the books. Not even counting Greenings 2.6 if they can find a team to take him or maybe they buy him out.

Now in terms of the other players raises you have to subtract the 1M they're already making from each player, then try and figure out how much they were making in bonuses. Max rookie contract is 3.5M when its tapped out with full bonuses I think - so Mika and company are already charging a bigger cap hit than their minimum once you take the bonuses into account. It's more hard to figure out all that stuff though until the end of the year - although you can make some projections.

Even in your max scenario you're only adding 12M not 16M. You forgot to take into account the money they were already making. And you've got to imagine Ottawa is going to shed some dead weight here shortly. In particular I think Smith (who has value to other teams) and Neil, are probably gone.

 

[EssendonBombers]

Why people have to say Boro makes an unnecessarily high amount of money when hes played solid in his limited amount of games this year? I dont feel the rookie dman should be held to the fire like the other guys.

Beause he's a good 6th/7th defenseman and you don't need to pay those guys more than the league min.

 

[jbeck5]

Well, the Sens problem isn't just the budget, it's money going to useless players.

We'll still have 8 defenseman signed to one ways next year, including an entirely superfluous Borowiecki making $1.1M against the cap. The you have Phillips, who is already a regular healthy scratch and is making $2.5M against the cap. Then Wiercioch, also a regular scratch who is making $2M. These guys combined will be costing us $5.6 million next year and at least two of them will be a scratch in every game. For that, you could have a legit top 4 defenceman. Murray's mismanagement in this respect is remarkable.

This is a big issue for sure. Same with the forwards. You've got greening,Neil, legwand eating up 8 million. For three 4th liners/healthy scratches you can have 2 good players or one star player. Throw in michalek and that number becomes 12 mil

A lot of it has to do with where we are in the cycle. Hopefully as our prospects develop, we get rid of the multi million dollar bottom line useless players. But still, some of those contracts are terrible for a budget team.

 

[jbeck5]

"mismanagement"? I'm sure when Murray re-signed Phillips, Borowiecki and Weircioch he anticipated Borowiecki being injured for a long time because of a freak accident, Weircioch not improving even marginally and Phillips regressing to the point where he can't even skate a regular shift. I guess while he also had his crystal ball out he shouldn't have "mismanaged" his health...

Phillips had already regressed to that point before we resigned him. He didn't need some crystal ball, he just had to look at the trend over the last 3 years, look at his age, and look at his current level of play over the past year to know that chances of him earning that money were slim to none.

95% of the fans were screaming for phillips to be traded for a pick and were upset when he re-signed.

 

[Ice-Tray]

He signed 8 defenseman to one way deals. You don't need to be some virtuoso GM to realise that that might not be a great idea.

I'm confused because you seem to have a disconnect between the logic of the signings, and what we have actually experienced this year.

Maybe he did have that crystal ball because it turns out it WAS a good idea given that we have only ever had 7 of them healthy at one time, sometimes six. Imagine if we didn't have 8 guys who could play in the NHL, we'd be icing a couple prospects on D every night.

Add in that at least three of the players are auditioning for a permanent spot (Wier, Gryba, Boro) and you have solid competition, and have created an atmosphere where by this point management knows what they have in each guy and can make trades accordingly. Young players with another year on their contract are a little more valuable in a trade to boot.

I have to admit that I think you are completely wrong in your assessment on this one.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Except that you completely forgot all these players already have salaries. Even at 5.5M that's only a 2.5M bump for Methot.

Don't forget Neil, Smith, Phillips and Legwand may all be gone. So that's a good 9M that could easily come off the books. Not even counting Greenings 2.6 if they can find a team to take him or maybe they buy him out.

Now in terms of the other players raises you have to subtract the 1M they're already making from each player, then try and figure out how much they were making in bonuses. Max rookie contract is 3.5M when its tapped out with full bonuses I think - so Mika and company are already charging a bigger cap hit than their minimum once you take the bonuses into account. It's more hard to figure out all that stuff though until the end of the year - although you can make some projections.

Even in your max scenario you're only adding 12M not 16M. You forgot to take into account the money they were already making. And you've got to imagine Ottawa is going to shed some dead weight here shortly. In particular I think Smith (who has value to other teams) and Neil, are probably gone.

You have forgotten that if Murray is able to swing a Ryan-type trade like he wants, we will be adding a significant salary to the mix, and this has obviously been ok'ed.

There is no evidence to show that we are losing players due to budget. We just aren't adding short term players on bloated contracts to our long term growth plan.

The irony is that THAT is how you end up being a perennial middle team, with little room to sign the quality youngsters coming up in your system because no one wants to take on your long term, bloated, under performing UFA signings when it comes time to shed their salaries.

No, I'll take the burn time for the youngsters, watch the team develop together, and watch the budget grow organically as our core matures.

But then again, that's one man's opinion.

 

[Ice-Tray]

This is a big issue for sure. Same with the forwards. You've got greening,Neil, legwand eating up 8 million. For three 4th liners/healthy scratches you can have 2 good players or one star player. Throw in michalek and that number becomes 12 mil

A lot of it has to do with where we are in the cycle. Hopefully as our prospects develop, we get rid of the multi million dollar bottom line useless players. But still, some of those contracts are terrible for a budget team.

We don't have a single "terrible" contract on the books.

As has been mentioned ad nausea, WHO ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND THIS 12 MILLION ON?
People like to list off all of the top UFA's of last year like they would come here. I'm not one who believes that players don't like Ottawa, but they would not be coming here.

They all got bloated long-term contracts from better teams, and even if you believe that players only care about money and would chose a bottom team for a couple hundred grand more per year, that leaves us with a bunch of bloated long term contracts that would leave us as handcuffed as the leafs, flyers, wild, etc, with what would likely be a similar spot in the standings. Not to mention cause future trouble signing our own players to extensions.

Realistically we would have had to sign a bunch of Legwands of the world to make up the 12 million, because, you know, we have meet the cap floor and all.

Factor in the hit the organization would take for not re-signing the two longest serving legacy members of our team, to relatively tiny contracts, while they still have gas in the tank, and letting one of the best forward bargains available (Michalek) go for nothing, and you're left with everyone scratching their heads wondering how this organization suddenly became inept.

Once we announced that it was a couple armchair dudes "who know hockey" from HF behind it all it would all make sense. At least then we'd have a real reason to sharpen the pitchforks and brandish the torches.

Word

 

[pzeeman]

You have forgotten that if Murray is able to swing a Ryan-type trade like he wants, we will be adding a significant salary to the mix, and this has obviously been ok'ed.

There is no evidence to show that we are losing players due to budget. We just aren't adding short term players on bloated contracts to our long term growth plan.

The irony is that THAT is how you end up being a perennial middle team, with little room to sign the quality youngsters coming up in your system because no one wants to take on your long term, bloated, under performing UFA signings when it comes time to shed their salaries.

No, I'll take the burn time for the youngsters, watch the team develop together, and watch the budget grow organically as our core matures.

But then again, that's one man's opinion.

We don't have a single "terrible" contract on the books.

As has been mentioned ad nausea, WHO ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND THIS 12 MILLION ON?
People like to list off all of the top UFA's of last year like they would come here. I'm not one who believes that players don't like Ottawa, but they would not be coming here.

They all got bloated long-term contracts from better teams, and even if you believe that players only care about money and would chose a bottom team for a couple hundred grand more per year, that leaves us with a bunch of bloated long term contracts that would leave us as handcuffed as the leafs, flyers, wild, etc, with what would likely be a similar spot in the standings. Not to mention cause future trouble signing our own players to extensions.

Realistically we would have had to sign a bunch of Legwands of the world to make up the 12 million, because, you know, we have meet the cap floor and all.

Factor in the hit the organization would take for not re-signing the two longest serving legacy members of our team, to relatively tiny contracts, while they still have gas in the tank, and letting one of the best forward bargains available (Michalek) go for nothing, and you're left with everyone scratching their heads wondering how this organization suddenly became inept.

Once we announced that it was a couple armchair dudes "who know hockey" from HF behind it all it would all make sense. At least then we'd have a real reason to sharpen the pitchforks and brandish the torches.

Word

I wish this board had a voting system. +2 to Ice-Tray for the two posts above, and +1 to the poster (sorry, lost your name) who had to explain Eugene's thinking from a couple months ago.

 

[harvey]

I think Murray and this team are following their plan and i approve of the plan. Short term decisions leading to half way results are not the way to go.

 

[jbeck5]

We don't have a single "terrible" contract on the books.

Yes we do.

Phillips on your team at 1 million is bad.

Phillips on your team at 2.5 million is terrible...especially for a budget team.

 

[Smash88]

I really don't understand the thinking in here sometimes.

We have a ton of kids who will need raises in the coming years. We aren't a budget team, we are a smart team.

What happens when we need to give 10-15 million in raises if we are a cap team? We are forced to lose some of our young guys because we can't fit them into the cap.

We've never lost anyone because of money issues and until we do, I'm not sure why everyone is up in arms about it.

Phillips is a career player here and Murray rewarded him for that, it's probably a million too much, but who cares? we are well below the cap anyhow, that contract hardly harms us at all.

Melnyk has always maintained he will spend when the time is right. After the Ryan deal this summer, I tend to believe him.

 

[Inf4mous0ne]

I really don't understand the thinking in here sometimes.

We have a ton of kids who will need raises in the coming years. We aren't a budget team, we are a smart team.

What happens when we need to give 10-15 million in raises if we are a cap team? We are forced to lose some of our young guys because we can't fit them into the cap.

We've never lost anyone because of money issues and until we do, I'm not sure why everyone is up in arms about it.

Phillips is a career player here and Murray rewarded him for that, it's probably a million too much, but who cares? we are well below the cap anyhow, that contract hardly harms us at all.

Melnyk has always maintained he will spend when the time is right. After the Ryan deal this summer, I tend to believe him.

This. I like how people complain about a $2.5 million contract when:

1) It is no where near a horrible deal when compared to others in the league
2) We haven't lost out on the opportunity for someone else because of it
3) We are no where near the cap

I think people need to get over this "budget" team label. Being on a budget means we wont spend recklessly, not that we won't spend.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Yes we do.

Phillips on your team at 1 million is bad.

Phillips on your team at 2.5 million is terrible...especially for a budget team.

No, that's the opinion of a biased anti-Phillips poster, and his gang of knowledgable hockey friends I suppose...

I can understand that when a person thinks that this money would be spent elsewhere on something bigger and better, that it may be irritating. The problem is that such posters are irritating themselves with imaginary scenarios that do not, and would not, exist.

But by all means, float that boat though!

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

Yes we do.

Phillips on your team at 1 million is bad.

Phillips on your team at 2.5 million is terrible...especially for a budget team.

But we had to spend that money to get to the cap floor and who else do you spend that money on? Let's be honest, rebuilding teams are not attractive for first time UFAs and these are the players in the age bracket that we would be targeting... Oh, and this has nothing to do with Ottawa not being a desirable destination.

So now you're in the next bracket of UFAs (29-33 years old) and you're either spending big money for a guy that will be out of his prime when we're ready to contend or you're taking a big risk on a contract.

So....now you look internally at your loyal vets and start to risk manage. You ask yourself how much risk you're willing to take at this point in time. If I'm Bryan, at this point in the teams development you make this decision 10 times out of 10 and you bring Phillips and Michalek. You just hope that next time the results are better.

 

[harvey]

Yes we do.

Phillips on your team at 1 million is bad.

Phillips on your team at 2.5 million is terrible...especially for a budget team.

no, you are wrong, please look at the CBA and the current cap.
no, you are wrong.

definitely a post to er cause controversy because it is just stupid
maybe posted on purpose yes?

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Yes we do.

Phillips on your team at 1 million is bad.

Phillips on your team at 2.5 million is terrible...especially for a budget team.

2.5 million for a vet who can play a 6 or 7 role isn't outrageous by any means. Richardson earned around that when the sens signed him, and Jason Smith earned more. Years ago.

There is more to building a team than just on ice results. The locker room is important, time and time again teams will pay big bucks for regressing vets for a reason. Can't ignore the trend.

Im sure there are plenty of comparables around the league but im too lazy to look it up.

 

[StefanW]

You have forgotten that if Murray is able to swing a Ryan-type trade like he wants, we will be adding a significant salary to the mix, and this has obviously been ok'ed.

There is no evidence to show that we are losing players due to budget. We just aren't adding short term players on bloated contracts to our long term growth plan.

The irony is that THAT is how you end up being a perennial middle team, with little room to sign the quality youngsters coming up in your system because no one wants to take on your long term, bloated, under performing UFA signings when it comes time to shed their salaries.

No, I'll take the burn time for the youngsters, watch the team develop together, and watch the budget grow organically as our core matures.

But then again, that's one man's opinion.

BM is willing to make a "Ryan type deal", which means moving multiple young assets for a more proven player. We have several young guys who are pending FAs. Making such a move does not necessarily mean adding spending. In fact, depending on which players are moved out it may actually save cash. We wont know either way until such a deal happens.

The "evidence" we have is that we are 30th in team spending after being bottom 5 last season. All 29 other teams are not signing players to bloated contracts and staying in the middle of the league as a result. And the Kings and Chicago each have bloated contracts on their roster, but somehow managed to win Cups recently.

I agree that having young players on the roster and letting them mature together is the way to go. This is the approach that Wpg took, and it is paying dividends now. However, they opted to spend cash to keep their young core together on longer term deals. It will be interesting to see how much of our young core is here next October, and whether any have been shipped in deals "to help the team." That will be the acid test.

 

[Xspyrit]

[mod]

He signed 8 defenseman to one way deals. You don't need to be some virtuoso GM to realise that that might not be a great idea.

You don't need to be some virtuoso poster to know that Ceci is on a 2-way...

Oh and by the way, teams can carry 23 players on their roster. They pretty much all go to the limit because a lot of injuries happen in one season... So you either have the choice :

2 G, 8 D, 13 F
2 G, 7 D, 14 F

Which one do you choose?

It's not about it's a great idea or not, it's about understanding very basic things...

[mod]

This. I like how people complain about a $2.5 million contract when:

1) It is no where near a horrible deal when compared to others in the league
2) We haven't lost out on the opportunity for someone else because of it
3) We are no where near the cap

I think people need to get over this "budget" team label. Being on a budget means we wont spend recklessly, not that we won't spend.

I don't even think those people understand the difference between budget and cap. So yeah, those posts are not really surprising when you think of it.

 

[EssendonBombers]

I'm confused because you seem to have a disconnect between the logic of the signings, and what we have actually experienced this year.

Maybe he did have that crystal ball because it turns out it WAS a good idea given that we have only ever had 7 of them healthy at one time, sometimes six. Imagine if we didn't have 8 guys who could play in the NHL, we'd be icing a couple prospects on D every night.

Add in that at least three of the players are auditioning for a permanent spot (Wier, Gryba, Boro) and you have solid competition, and have created an atmosphere where by this point management knows what they have in each guy and can make trades accordingly. Young players with another year on their contract are a little more valuable in a trade to boot.

I have to admit that I think you are completely wrong in your assessment on this one.

What are you talking about? You're acting like it's impossible to just call up someone on a two way in those situations. Is Borowiecki or Wiercioch really that much better at being a scratch than Chris Wideman? There is zero need to ever have 8 defenseman signed to one ways.

As for your last sentence, it also makes no sense. Gryba and Boro have no trade value anyway, and the length of contract is pretty irrelevant for young players because they're RFAs.

 

[EssendonBombers]

You don't need to be some virtuoso poster to know that Ceci is on a 2-way...

My mistake, but Ceci is effectively on a one way as there's no way that Murray expected to send him down this season.

This. I like how people complain about a $2.5 million contract when:

1) It is no where near a horrible deal when compared to others in the league
2) We haven't lost out on the opportunity for someone else because of it
3) We are no where near the cap

I think people need to get over this "budget" team label. Being on a budget means we wont spend recklessly, not that we won't spend.

The team has allocated $5.6 million to Wiercioch, Borowiecki and Phillips when only one of them will be playing on any given night. That is spending recklessly in my opinion.

 

[Ice-Tray]

What are you talking about? You're acting like it's impossible to just call up someone on a two way in those situations. Is Borowiecki or Wiercioch really that much better at being a scratch than Chris Wideman? There is zero need to ever have 8 defenseman signed to one ways.

As for your last sentence, it also makes no sense. Gryba and Boro have no trade value anyway, and the length of contract is pretty irrelevant for young players because they're RFAs.

What are you talking about? Call ups and downs? What in the world does that have to do with salary dude?

Yes, Boro and Weir were better than Wideman starting from last season. This good season of his might get him some play time next year. See how it works? If Wideman was a rotating player this year on the roster he wouldn't be having a great season.

Bro and Weir were given one-way contracts for services rendered, which doesn't stop players from being sent to the AHL, but is a cash reward from the club. Your confusion and irritation about 8 one-way contracts is just weird. The team WANTS to have 8 guys up with the squad, because, you know, there hasn't been a time when all 8 have been healthy and we're halfway through the season. To reiterate, 8 one-way contracts doesn't mean guys can't be moved up or down, it's a cash reward/commitment from the organization to players they feel deserve it. Why again do you care who the organization pays full NHL salaries? It's not stopping us from making any moves, nor are we anywhere close to the cap.... Chill Winston

As for your last sentence, that's nothing but your personal opinion, which is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Obviously the organization sees value in Gryba and Boro, and if and when that changes they will either trade them or let them go. Not a big deal at al...

 

[Ice-Tray]

My mistake, but Ceci is effectively on a one way as there's no way that Murray expected to send him down this season.



The team has allocated $5.6 million to Wiercioch, Borowiecki and Phillips when only one of them will be playing on any given night. That is spending recklessly in my opinion.

This issue has been pounded to death over and over again.

 

[jbeck5]

No, that's the opinion of a biased anti-Phillips poster, and his gang of knowledgable hockey friends I suppose...

I can understand that when a person thinks that this money would be spent elsewhere on something bigger and better, that it may be irritating. The problem is that such posters are irritating themselves with imaginary scenarios that do not, and would not, exist.

But by all means, float that boat though!

I haven't made any imaginary scenarios. You make it sound like I have something against Phillips personally. My opinion is observational and not emotional. I love his type of player in his prime, I love his beer. But he needs to hang them up, and we need to not keep re-signing him.

But we had to spend that money to get to the cap floor and who else do you spend that money on? Let's be honest, rebuilding teams are not attractive for first time UFAs and these are the players in the age bracket that we would be targeting... Oh, and this has nothing to do with Ottawa not being a desirable destination.

So now you're in the next bracket of UFAs (29-33 years old) and you're either spending big money for a guy that will be out of his prime when we're ready to contend or you're taking a big risk on a contract.

So....now you look internally at your loyal vets and start to risk manage. You ask yourself how much risk you're willing to take at this point in time. If I'm Bryan, at this point in the teams development you make this decision 10 times out of 10 and you bring Phillips and Michalek. You just hope that next time the results are better.

I don't bring those players back because they were really bad. I was finally hoping to cut our ties with michalek. This coming from a guy who has a michalek jersey.

no, you are wrong, please look at the CBA and the current cap.
no, you are wrong.

definitely a post to er cause controversy because it is just stupid
maybe posted on purpose yes?

Is this English? Look at the current CBA? Phillips makes average coin while being strongly below average. If that doesn't equal bad contract, then what does?

2.5 million for a vet who can play a 6 or 7 role isn't outrageous by any means. Richardson earned around that when the sens signed him, and Jason Smith earned more. Years ago.

There is more to building a team than just on ice results. The locker room is important, time and time again teams will pay big bucks for regressing vets for a reason. Can't ignore the trend.

Im sure there are plenty of comparables around the league but im too lazy to look it up.

If I remember correctly, richardson signed for like league minimum. And smith realized he was crap and retired half way through his contract. Not the greatest comparables.

 

[The Lewler]

I wonder what some expansion windfall money would do to Eugene's bottom line..