Post-Game Talk: Annnd, we lost again. 3-2 Loss, Stamkos with GWG, Surprised?

[Trapper]

JFj had the down cycle, after going for it, and knew the team needed to rebuild.

I'm not sure it is any better than if JFj had been allowed to pursue a rebuild. I'd take Feaster's rebuid in Calgary over Burke's in Toronto.

One playoffs appearance since JFj was fired, and 1 year out of the bottom 10 of the league while playing at or near the cap ceiling.

I've seen some bad Leaf teams with no talent but this is the worst Leaf team I've ever seen with talent.
This team reminds of the pre cap Rangers when they thought signing names on the back of the Jersey meant winning. Holik,Jagr,Drury,Redden,Gomez etc, etc. as a collection they stunk. Played their own individual games and failed as a team.

 

[Slot]

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 1m1 minute ago
Challenged on assessment that issues have lingered for weeks, Phaneuf said: "You have your own opinion on what you think can be changed."

Oooooh....lol

Whiskey tango foxtrot! That's a smug comment from someone thinking to get the coach fired.

 

[Trapper]

Burke started an accelerated rebuild with the Kessel trade, this sealed the fate of this franchise on a true rebuild. When that didn't work along with some failed FA signings.

What he did in trading cap space for prospects and picks starting turning this franchise around.

He wasn't perfect, but he did leave this franchise with something in the cupboard from bare cupboards.

Our best prospect went from Tlusty to Rielly. and love him or hate him our best player from Blake to Kessel.

This team was better for Nonis, than JFJ to when Burke took over. A mixed bag, but some things he did good for this organization.

A lousy team with no individual assets to a lousy team with individual assets. Now it's time to take those pieces and move them to put a solid structure in place. We have players to trade now unlike in 2009 when we had nothing to trade. The team then and now is still no better. Time to begin the roll over.

 

[Giuseppe Sallo]

Defence is our biggest problem yet nothing is being done. what gives? You can wait for another free fall, leaf fans would go nuts.

 

[Giuseppe Sallo]

Another thing is were a lazy ass team. When we play hard, we WIN.

This team is an embarrassing when it comes to putting in work. Just a bunch of rich pretty boys counting their money.

 

[Trapper]

Defence is our biggest problem yet nothing is being done. what gives? You can wait for another free fall, leaf fans would go nuts.

By defense I hope you also mean the lazy forwards who after 2-3 games just stop providing support and wait at the blue line for a breakaway chance. A defense that just doesn't engage for lose pucks. Tampa fought for ever puck while the Leafs were happy to let them have it.

 

[dimi78]

JFj told management a rebuild was needed.

Management said no.

Burke said I don't need to rebuild, “I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim."

I'm sure there are people still defending Burke here. For some Leafs management is beyond reproach, and yet that defies all logic and reasoned thought.

There's more to that quote that never gets added. Like he will not trade youth for older players that won't be part of the long term future of the team. That he will stay away from trades of that nature that the Leafs were guilty of prior to his hiring.



Unfortanely people took the Kessel trade as quick fix which I'll never understand do to the player he brought in was 21 years old. Rather you like Kessel or not trading for a 21 year old isn't a quick fix... People hated that he wanted to make the playoffs and was vocal about it like wanting to win was a bad thing because so many are pro tank and continue to miss the boat that Burke didn't trade even 1 young player for something that would be gone in a year or 2. In fact he did the opposite of what he was flamed for but this is LeafNation right. You know the land where people are rational..

Burke has balls and isn't afraid to make bold moves as it should be to be a gm, as much as people are so adamantly pro tank to rebuild it takes success in all 3 tools available to the GM to build a contender. Trades & UFA is just as important as Draft & development all 3 require balancing and hits. Fail in one and you will fail to build a contender... Edmonton is figuring this out as we speak as the golden boys aren't so golden anymore.

Tell you one thing Burke did a hell of a better job than what happen out in Edmonton that many on here were glowing about how much better of a future they had than Burke's Leafs LOL!

Burke did F@u(k up though when he hired Carlyle

 

[Slot]

Equally confusing.

How about of mice and men?

 

[MajorLeaf]

JFj told management a rebuild was needed.

Management said no.

Burke said I don't need to rebuild, “I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim."

I'm sure there are people still defending Burke here. For some Leafs management is beyond reproach, and yet that defies all logic and reasoned thought.

See this is what is troubling for Leafs fans that have watched multiple managers apply similar tactics in building the team.

Trade away top end picks like first and second round picks to acquire players to help now rather then being patient to build the prospect pool into NHL players. Heck even free agent signings that make fans scratch their heads is another problem with this team.

Here is an example in the JFJ term:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/ferguson-timeline/

August 5, 2005 – Ferguson re-signs fan favourite Tie Domi, though it is widely speculated that the GM was told to by MLSE chairman Larry Tanenbaum, a friend of Domi’s. The impression that Ferguson doesn’t have full control of hockey decisions begins to erode his credibility in Toronto.

Then JFJ trades a first round pick for Toskala and spare parts to shore up goaltending including the disastrous Rask for Raycroft trade. Seriously?

Burke comes on the scene having to tell the media and fans he has full autonomy. Why did he have to say that?? All General Managers should have full autonomy…but no in Maple Leafs land he has to tell everyone this fact. Then all of a sudden Burke trades two first round picks and a second round for Kessel on a roster that should have been rebuilt. This made no sense.

Then we see Nonis trading away second round picks like candy for Bolland and Bernier, along with third and fourth round picks for Holland, O’Byrne, and even sending a fourth with Gunnarsson for Polak who has similar skill set to Gunnarsson. Plus the Leafs retained $200,000 salary in the deal.

Clearly with three General Managers trading away the future something doesn’t seem right within the Maple Leafs organization.

I’m not a defender of JFJ, Burke, or Nonis. Sometimes people see what could be happening behind closed doors as it is very odd for multiple people to be making the same type of moves or mistakes over the years. Makes any fan wonder on who is really running this Leafs organization. That is why people are still sceptical on what Shanahan can bring to this team.

 

[Stephen]

There's more to that quote that never gets added. Like he will not trade youth for older players that won't be part of the long term future of the team. That he will stay away from trades of that nature that the Leafs were guilty of prior to his hiring.



Unfortanely people took the Kessel trade as quick fix which I'll never understand do to the player he brought in was 21 years old. Rather you like Kessel or not trading for a 21 year old isn't a quick fix... People hated that he wanted to make the playoffs and was vocal about it like wanting to win was a bad thing because so many are pro tank and continue to miss the boat that Burke didn't trade even 1 young player for something that would be gone in a year or 2. In fact he did the opposite of what he was flamed for but this is LeafNation right. You know the land where people are rational..

Burke has balls and isn't afraid to make bold moves as it should be to be a gm, as much as people are so adamantly pro tank to rebuild it takes success in all 3 tools available to the GM to build a contender. Trades & UFA is just as important as Draft & development all 3 require balancing and hits. Fail in one and you will fail to build a contender... Edmonton is figuring this out as we speak as the golden boys aren't so golden anymore.

Tell you one thing Burke did a hell of a better job than what happen out in Edmonton that many on here were glowing about how much better of a future they had than Burke's Leafs LOL!

Burke did F@u(k up though when he hired Carlyle

In hindsight, anyone who thought it was a good idea to invest so heavily in one Phil Kessel is a damn fool. The guy is just so flawed it's unbelievable. Monumental waste of talent.

 

[Stephen]

I’m not a defender of JFJ, Burke, or Nonis. Sometimes people see what could be happening behind closed doors as it is very odd for multiple people to be making the same type of moves or mistakes over the years. Makes any fan wonder on who is really running this Leafs organization. That is why people are still sceptical on what Shanahan can bring to this team.

At the same time, the Board obviously wouldn't have been at the level of detail that said: "get Toskala, get Kessel, get Stempniak."

Peddie admitted they didn't want to go into a full rebuild during the JFJ era, but that doesn't mean they went out and ok'ed getting bent over a barrel and squandering futures.

Same with Burke. Even if he did want to retool on the fly, why couldn't he have just spent his money on people like Gaborik, Cammalleri and the myriad of free agents who could have given the team a short term boost while keeping the 2010, 2011 first round picks?

In the end, the Kessel deal and the botched retool doesn't matter. They got it wrong and this team isn't getting out of that bottom 10 territory any time soon. We'll have another top 10 pick this year and one of these years things will start turning around.

 

[Durrr]

In hindsight, anyone who thought it was a good idea to invest so heavily in one Phil Kessel is a damn fool. The guy is just so flawed it's unbelievable. Monumental waste of talent.

Yeah, but you're missing the point. When he was traded for, he was a 21 year old (drafted as a center), coming off a 36 goal, 60 point season. The price was steep, but the fact that Kessel never developed any part of his game besides offense is not something you can know without hindsight. Do you know how few players accomplish that type of season at 21?

Stop pretending you are some sort of genius, Kessel was a fantastic pickup when we traded for him, who sadly came with a high price tag that he is unable to make up for. I obviously don't agree with that trade in hindsight, but Burke gambled that we'd have a franchise player in Kessel (and he wasn't completely off the mark) BUT we ended up paying to steep a price in the end.

We don't have the type of players needed to house a player like Kessel, were missing so much talent upfront. Kadri, JVR, then nothing.

 

[King85Kong]

Please get better soon Bernier

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Yeah, but you're missing the point. When he was traded for, he was a 21 year old (drafted as a center), coming off a 36 goal, 60 point season. The price was steep, but the fact that Kessel never developed any part of his game besides offense is not something you can know without hindsight. Do you know how few players accomplish that type of season at 21?

Stop pretending you are some sort of genius, Kessel was a fantastic pickup when we traded for him, who sadly came with a high price tag that he is unable to make up for. I obviously don't agree with that trade in hindsight, but Burke gambled that we'd have a franchise player in Kessel (and he wasn't completely off the mark) BUT we ended up paying to steep a price in the end.

He said "in hindsight"

even though a lot of people predicted he would be the one dimensional player he is

 

[Durrr]

He said "in hindsight"

even though a lot of people predicted he would be the one dimensional player he is

A lot of people predict things on both sides of the spectrum, are you actually shocked that perennial negative fans predicted something negative about a leafs player? Kessel could have actually become a man instead of the scared, lazy boy he currently is and been a top 10 player in this league right now, he has the talent and the ability. The trade would still hurt the organization long term because of how poor we finished, but we could be in a lot better shape, that's the nature of a gamble.

Leafs could have had the pick that year, finished last without Kessel and drafted Hall. How are we looking then?

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Think we go 1-8 in our next 9

@Boston Loss
@Minny Loss
@Winnipeg Win (maybe)
Washington Loss
Columbus Loss
@LA Loss
@Anaheim Loss
@San Jose Loss
@St.Louis Loss

 

[Giuseppe Sallo]

We'll win in Boston. Just a gut feeling.

 

[Giuseppe Sallo]

Please get better soon Bernier

 

[King85Kong]

You know things are bad when the Kessel trade is being discussed in a PGT

 

[MajorLeaf]

At the same time, the Board obviously wouldn't have been at the level of detail that said: "get Toskala, get Kessel, get Stempniak."

What about Tanenbaum telling JFJ to sign Tie Domi in free agency?

Not at the very fine detail but a mandate would have been given by the Board or Tanenbaum to make the playoffs at all cost. It was up to these General Managers to figure out how to make it happen.

Peddie admitted they didn't want to go into a full rebuild during the JFJ era, but that doesn't mean they went out and ok'ed getting bent over a barrel and squandering futures.

Well if Peddie admitted the team did not want to go into full rebuild mode the only way to bolster the roster would be to overpay in free agency or trade away valuable picks, prospects or roster players to get there. They may not have approved to get bent over, but they approved a mandate for making the playoffs at whatever cost.

Same with Burke. Even if he did want to retool on the fly, why couldn't he have just spent his money on people like Gaborik, Cammalleri and the myriad of free agents who could have given the team a short term boost while keeping the 2010, 2011 first round picks?

This is not the pre-salary cap era where the Leafs could flex their financial muscle and sign free agents to fix the team. Deals like Komisarek where the Leafs had to buyout are prefect examples of where the team should avoid making these signings. Even the Clarkson signing was horrible and will haunt this team for years.

In the end, the Kessel deal and the botched retool doesn't matter. They got it wrong and this team isn't getting out of that bottom 10 territory any time soon. We'll have another top 10 pick this year and one of these years things will start turning around.

The botched retool does matter because it looks like every year a "re-tool" keeps happening with different General Managers. That is the main problem with this franchise the impatience of not allowing for a rebuild to be conducted. Let's see how if the Board or Tanenbaum will let Shanahan properly build this team.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Please get better soon Bernier

nuhnuh.
let hiim take his time getting better.

 

[Giuseppe Sallo]

We need Ujiri to give Shanny advice, first thing he'll say: Trade your underachievers. Our D has plenty.

 

[ironhorse384]

In hindsight, anyone who thought it was a good idea to invest so heavily in one Phil Kessel is a damn fool. The guy is just so flawed it's unbelievable. Monumental waste of talent.

He's not a waste of talent he just doesn't give a ****. He just wants to score goals and that's it. The problem for the leafs is that he basically needs to have multi point games to make up for his apathetic defensive zone play.The leafs are paying large for a power play specialist.

 

[King85Kong]

nuhnuh.
let hiim take his time getting better.

Not sure our season can handle that. Someone get him Buckley's.

 

[King85Kong]

He's not a waste of talent he just doesn't give a ****. He just wants to score goals and that's it. The problem for the leafs is that he basically needs to have multi point games to make up for his apathetic defensive zone play.The leafs are playing large for a power play specialist.

He needs someone on his line that is good at handling the puck and defensive play.