You know Philly is in different position than Canucks? Canucks have a young core already and Philly does not. Also it's stupid to reverse everything once you are committed. We already traded high picks and are investing in Kuzmenko, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko and Miller as part of the new core moving forward. A rebuild will make these players ask for trade and then what? A complete rebuild does not guarantee anything. Just ask the Leafs and Canucks have missed 8 years of playoffs in the past 10 years. There is no way they want to miss playoffs for 10 more years with no guarantee of anything. 20 years of missing the playoffs will just drive fans away. Now that they are committed and already invested to this fast rebuild idea, it would be dumb to change directions midway.
Value of: Andrey Kuzmenko
- Thread starter docbenton
- Start date
I think you are only just thinking about building through the draft. There are other ways to build the team up and the draft is only one tool. If you are just dependent on drafting then that's also wrong way to do it. How did Canucks get Kuzmenko? Hirose? And previously Tanev? Canucks can target depth players using both draft, college free agency, European free agency and NHL free agency along with trades. Drafting takes time, so by the time your draft pick develops in 5 years with no guarantee if what you got, a bust or not, then the young core will have aged 5 years, out of their prime and would probably leave. Then you would have bigger holes to fill in replacing Miller, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko. Then you draft for another 5 to 6 years and wait for another 2 to 3 years and the draft picks you developed 7 years ago will also be asking either for big contracts or leaving...rinse and repeat. Just look at Buffalo, Arizona, and other teams that have been in it for the long term. So it's not 100% guaranteed that Canucks become contenders even with "proper" rebuild because you need luck in drafting and developing them
You’re not building a championship team out of a bottom feeder without the draft. This same feeble attempt has been going on for awhile in Vancouver and Philly. You cannot take shortcuts to success - you need to draft and develop talent.
If you really think European free agents and college signings will turn a bottom feeder to an elite team and in a time frame of the primes of their 2 core players, you haven’t been following history. Taro Hirose being used as an example proves my point.
They rushed their rebuild without enough support, crippled themselves with large and terrible cap hits and have failed to build anything. They only have a few years to do anything before Pettersson, Hughes and Demko are gone and Miller is past his prime. They need to focus on drafting and development and accept their refusal to rebuild was a massive failure.
They could move their core now, empty the team and do a proper rebuild or they can keep pretending but the fact of the matter is kicking the ball along until next year has gotten them in this position.
1. They have a bottom feeder team
2. They only have 3-4 players worth building around.
3. JT Miller is 30.
4. Demko, Pettersson and Hughes are in their prime NOW.
5. They’re up against the salary cap, loaded with bad contracts.
6. Their prospect pool is bleak (28 of 32 according to THN). Those other teams below them or around them are top tier teams for the most part too, not dumpster fires.
If it was as easy as just signing free agents and trading to build a good team overnight, it would have happened by now. There are no shortcuts to team building. Vancouver ownership needs to accept they need to go al in on a build
Almost 0% chance Kuzmenko is dealt.
He is on a great deal that he just signed. He fits perfect on EPs wing, and has 50 goal potential. He chose the Canucks over every other team, then signed a team friendly deal. Trading him would be an awful move, what type of message does that send to other potential FA's?
He is on a great deal that he just signed. He fits perfect on EPs wing, and has 50 goal potential. He chose the Canucks over every other team, then signed a team friendly deal. Trading him would be an awful move, what type of message does that send to other potential FA's?
Nucklehead Supreme
Registered User
- Jul 10, 2011
- 4,251
- 2,126
The leafs rebuilt and grossly overpaid for people like Tavares, and never addressed balance through out the line up, thats why they haven't had much playoff success, the Canucks have never rebuilt, like ever....
Great examples bud.
Hoglander
I'm Höglander. I can do whatever I want.
Disagree with a lot of this.
The prospect pool rankings don't necessarily reflect what will become of them. Development is just as, if not more critical to prospect success, and things seem to have took a turn for the better on that front. It won't take 6-7 years for backup. There's a handful of solid prospects that are on the cusp of making the team this year or next. Just because they aren't touted as blue chip prospects, doesn't mean they can't become the middle and bottom of the lineup depth that the team needs.
They aren't just 2 good young players, they are elite stars - the kind you would hope to get from tanking. I also wouldn't change the direction of the team over a rumor (wherever that's even coming from), especially when one of the top prospects has starter potential and is already getting games and looking good.
A major problem for the team, has been the roster's balance - it's been very lopsided in talent between the forwards and defense. There's a fair bit of talent in the forward group as is evident by their ability to score, but the D needs to be addressed. Hronek will certainly help. The forwards basically just need tinkering, but if you strengthen the defense -on top of whatever it is now with a healthy Hronek and better 2way coaching under Tocchet- they should be a solid team. Too much is being made out of the cap situation. After this next season, its quite likely that the only bad contract left will be OEL, and at that point a buyout becomes much more palatable.
If you look at the teams still standing in the playoffs, they aren't being led by young cores that the team tanked years for, they are teams that built solid rosters through development and smart trades.
Really bad take here. I get that we didn't make the playoffs and this year was a big suck but there were obvious issues that contributed to it that won't be going forward and saying they have two or 3 good players is a really big swing and miss.
The 3 biggest issues this past season were,
Horrible goaltending for 58 games of the season, a terrible system that was exposed by terrible goaltending and Horvat sucking the life out of JT, all of which I believe won't be an issue next season.
There's also the issue a ton of injuries bur I won't use that as an excuse cuz that's part of the game.
That being said, by any metric or eye test if the goaltending had been league average we make the playoffs and it's exactly the same situation the Devils faced in 2021-2022.
There are holes like every team in the cap world but a forward group of EP, Kuzmenko, JT, Mikyahev, Boeser, Beauvillier, Podkolzin, Hoglander, plus whoever fills out the depth is a very strong top 9.
Defence of Quinn, OEL, Hronek, Bear is not world beating but is not below average and I feel this will be addressed once Garland and Myers are moved along with maybe signing a guy like Barbishev (hopefully)
A lot obviously depends on if Demko is truly back but if he is our offense was top 10 and Demko is a top 10 goalie so how does that sound like a team that needs to rebuild? Shuffle the deck a bit sure but nothing extreme needs to be done.
As for cap space, with LTIR they will have around 3 million with nobody too re-sign that will count more against the cap, so if the cap does go up by 4.5 (50/50 that happens) and if they move say Garland and Myers, that potentially 10-14 million in extra space too work with.
There's also guys like Raty, Kravstov, Linus Karlsson, and a few other prospects like Hirose and the RHD from Sweden we signed after his rights expired from the wild I think, who showed really well in the SHL last season.
There's also the fact that going forward, OEL will be the only 30+ left under contract on the nucks with the last of the dead cap over with after this season.
Bottom line is there's a good core group here and with a few moves cap space can be created that can be used to plug some of the holes.
It's fine too criticize the team and yes there's holes but the usual fanbases who have always shit on Vancouver always seem feel the need to exaggerate things and while leaving out big chunks of the story.
I guess the only thing to do is wait till we see what shakes out and who's in and who's out but Alvin isn't JR or Benning and so far has managed to add two solid RHD in Hronek and Bear, build up the almost ready age of prospects and has positioned the team to use any cap space to directly improve the team so I guess we will find out how much more he will do this summer.
The Leafs getting lucky in the draft is rebuild by your definition but the Canucks getting 5th round picks is not lol. They both overpaid over the hill players so not sure what you are talking about. They paid 11 million for Tavares in FA market and brought in dinosaurs like Giordano but sure, you call that a proper rebuild while Canucks never did even though they drafted a bunch of young players which they did trade for washed up players. Both Leafs and Canucks built their team similar way.
I think people here make it a huge deal whennanteam misses playoffs while trying to improve and adding new players. Problem is that people on HFboard think one bad contract on the team makes it worthy of rebuilding but they don't accept the fact that rebuilding and improvement isn't linear and that rebuilding a team doesn't guarantee cups 100% of the time. So it would be completely idiotic to rebuild now that Canucks have invested draft picks to obtain players like Hronek, Kravatsov, Beauvillier, Raty etc. While also telling Demko, Pettersson, Miller, Hughes...sorry guys we need to rebuild for 10 more years. Then what would happen if that rebuild fails? Sorry Canucks fans we need to rebuild for 10 more years? Hockey is a business afterall and those fans or customers won't be waiting 20 years to see a cup contending team through "proper rebuild". Just look at teams like Anaheim that won't get Bedard. You need major luck in rebuilding too and Canucks are lucky enough to even got Pettersson and Hughes along with Demko. They could have had bad luck and ended up with Zadina and some other bust instead of Hughes and Pettersson. The only whining I keep hearing here is to "rebuild" like it's very easy to get a bunch of elite players in the draft and surround them by really good cheap young players that also turn out to be borderline star players. A team like the Canucks are going through growing pains and a previous GM that targeted and overpaid for washed up vets. But they are not in the same stage as Philly or Chicago to need a rebuild because they already have a young core to build around. They need to retool and get rid of players like OEL and Myers. They have other young players that already are showing to be great depth players like Joshua, Hirose, Bear, Mikheyev, Podkolzin, Hoglander etc. They need those players to develop more and the Canucks will get over the hump once they fix that defense which is not that tough to do when you have Hughes, Hronek, Bear and Hirose as a starting point.
Does Philly have a Pettersson? No...Does Philly have a Hughes??? No...Does Philly have a Demko??? No, Does Philly have a 26 year old 40 goal scoring machine called Kuzmenko??? No....Does Philly have a 100 point center that can play physical like Miller??? No....Does Philly have someone that is an up and coming young dman like Hronek??? No....
Why do you compare Canucks to Philly???
Pettersson
Hughes
Kuzmenko
Miller
Demko
Seems like they at the very least have 5 all star players at the most important positions (1C, 1D, 1G, 1W, 2C) How many of these positions do the flyers have filled? We still have players like Podkolzin and Hoglander who could take the next step next year. We added Hronek as a legitimate top 4 defender to play the right side. We have a backup goalie in Silovs that seems to be the real deal. Our prospect pool whilst not great does have Lekkeramaki, Raty, Hirose, Pettersson, and a few others are trending in the right direction. We also add an 11th OA this year and with some deals at the draft likely a few more 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks.
Our biggest issue is cap and not really an issue for next year as I see next season as the final tinkering season before we are ready to compete. I can assure you Myers, Garland and Beauvillier will all be gone by the trade deadline.
My biggest concern is can Boeser and OEL have a resurgent year next year. If they do, there is no reason to move players like Kuzmenko and definitely no need for a rebuild. A rebuild requires you to trade away your core in exchange for prospects you then hope will turn into the same players that you traded away. If these new players dont hit, perpetual rebuild.
What I can tell from your post is that you have very little knowledge on team construction or know very little about the Canucks. We're not quite there but we are now on the right track.
I agree, seems like people who comment the Canucks need a rebuild are mainly fans of other teams and some clueless Canucks fans that hate aqualini so whatever the management under him does, they will have a problem with it. Main concern is only cap space which aside from OEL, they can resolve in the next 2 years by buyouts, trades or letting the contract expire like Boeser, Myers etc. Poolman, Pearson and others will also be gone. They can use young players with cheap cap hits to compensate for the overpaid players in the meantime.
Make the playoffs first. The Canucks are legitimately the biggest joke in the league.
BrentSopelsHair
Registered User
The Canucks have built this team like morons and they are currently in a position where they HAVE to move out salary this summer to even be cap-compliant. Their options are either to move a valuable player who would be easier to move who would return real value, or to try to move a player like Myers, Boeser or Garland that they have been publicly begging someone to take off their hands for months, where they will definitely have to add one of their limited picks or prospects to move the player
I'm for moving Kuz if only so that this stupid team can stop cutting corners and drink its medicine for once
I'm for moving Kuz if only so that this stupid team can stop cutting corners and drink its medicine for once
The Canucks aren't the biggest joke, that's Calgary first of all and Toronto is 2nd. Canucks already got rid of Benning so they are in the right direction already
Yes it's easier to move your best players then what are you left with? What would be the purpose of creating cap space if you get rid of your core? Might as well rebuild if you trade your young core and at that point you don't need cap space. Not sure why some people don't think logically here. Moving Kuzmenko is a dumb Benning type of move.
BrentSopelsHair
Registered User
You obviously did't actually read what I said. While it's obviously not ideal to trade your good players, the Canucks are in such a cap crunch that there are no good options. Every team in the league knows they have to move money just to get compliant so it will cost even more to move bad money (which has already been prohibitively expensive through the new group's first 18 months), moving a good player might end up needing to happen if they can't find another deal.
"People don't think logically" is a very simplistic thing to say, because I would say that it's more logical to think this way. If we want to keep cutting corners and wasting assets to get out of problems we made for ourselves, that's easy to do, just keep digging down. The road to having a team that makes sense runs through a ton of shitty decisions.
They are cap compliant withoit doing anything. They have 5mill in LTIR to sign 4 players, + potentially 3-4 mil extra if the cap jumps. OEL will just stay in IR until opening day to make it work.
While they have very limited room to improve without making some trades, the notion that they need to dump salary to be compliant is incorrect.
Petes2424
Registered User
- Aug 4, 2005
- 8,049
- 2,326
Took me awhile to start liking him, as he does still have those lazy moments, but he can be a really productive player if he continues to clean some of that up. Which he has in stretches.
With everything else going on with Boeser and Garland, and his new contract in hand, they won’t be worrying about what to do with him for awhile. Could they get a 1st? Absolutely.
With everything else going on with Boeser and Garland, and his new contract in hand, they won’t be worrying about what to do with him for awhile. Could they get a 1st? Absolutely.
We'll be there next season. Your comment is a joke. Add some substance and quit acting like a baby who's had their lollipop taken away
Cap is expected to go up 3-4m
Myers will be moved post Sept 15, 2023 when his bonus is signed.
Garland & Beauvillier are not negative value players. Garland has been difficult to move because of the term remaining on his contract but with the expected rise in cap, it makes it a little easier. Both will be gone next season without adding sweeteners.
Pearson & Poolman come off the books for 2024-2025.
OEL will be bought out in the summer of 2024 should he not have a resurgent season next year.
Boeser will not be traded and strongly feel he will play up to his contract.
We should have the money to sign a 3C and pick up another defenseman as early as this off season.
Hopefully this changes your view on the Canucks situation or we could start going back and forth until one of our points comes across to the other.
Why not just keep the same roster and let the contracts expire? How many years does Myers have left on the contract? 1? How many years does Boeser have left? 2? How about others like poolman and Pearson?? The only long term contract is OEL which is unmoveable. So why not just keep the same roster with the hope of having a better team 2 years down the road versus selling good young players and not having a good team even after those contracts expire. There is no point in trading elite players just to save cap space. There is just no logic to it at all. I really don't get why people think of these ideas when NHL GMs never have pulled moves like these just for cap space.
I said fine and you still aren’t going to revert your comment about calling my post a joke?
Stay classy
- Apr 2, 2023
- 10,172
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He would be a great complimentary player if you need a sniper. Until he actually tries in other areas, he isn't that useful. Tocchet doesn't seem to like his game much.
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