Proposal: Andrew Macdonald to Dallas for Lehtonen

Mr Misty

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Hello, have you seen the 2 years of Lehtonen before this? One of the worst even strength save percentages in the league, one of the worst save percentages in the league overall, including this year.

How is that not evidence of a rapid decline? And in the playoffs last year? How about game 7 of the St Louis series, when he sunk the team in a matter of minutes? Or were those goals the ''Defense's fault'' too? If those weren't weak goals then there is no such thing as a weak goal or any goal being the goalie's fault ever.

The sympathy and passes the Stars goalies get are undeserved. As if it's not just a possibility that Lehtonen (and Niemi now too) are BAD goaltenders and not just products of a poor defensive team. It's like that's not even a possibility to some people. Eye test and stats both back it up. Like the game recently where Niemi allowed 3 goals on 3 shots and ALL 3 were stoppable goals. Then there was the game where Lehtonen let in 4 goals against the Kings, with at least 3 of them being weak as ****, he was yanked late in the 3rd and they wound up winning the game with Niemi in relief. Then Niemi got hot, before proceeding to end that hot streak with the 3 weak goals on 3 shots in the opening minutes, which I just referenced.

The past is past, I don't know why you can't move past it. If you are stuck there why do you think this is an even deal because Mason is a tremendous goalie, a huge upgrade over Lehtonen. The Flyers would be crazy to trade him, he's the backbone of their playoff push.
 

Cootsfanclub

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The "eye test" and "weak goal" narrative doesn't match with the reality of MacDonald having the best 5 on 5 GF% and 3rd best GA/60 of any regular Flyers dman since the start of that deal.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...ense&minutes=750&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

MacDonald has been one of the Flyers absolute worst over the last three seasons, those numbers are meaningless without context. They're lifted by a 58.6% season alongside Ghost last year, while Ghost had a 66.7 GF% with his next most common partner (Brandon Manning). Macdonald performed worse as a partner than a guy that belonged in the AHL (they both do), Amac had more favorable zone usage too!
 

Bleedred

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The past is past, I don't know why you can't move past it. If you are stuck there why do you think this is an even deal because Mason is a tremendous goalie, a huge upgrade over Lehtonen. The Flyers would be crazy to trade him, he's the backbone of their playoff push.

Except that this is Mason's first bad season since he was in Columbus....
 

tictactoe

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The past is past, I don't know why you can't move past it. If you are stuck there why do you think this is an even deal because Mason is a tremendous goalie, a huge upgrade over Lehtonen. The Flyers would be crazy to trade him, he's the backbone of their playoff push.
I do not know if I would use those exact words but like someone said earlier this is Masons 1st really up and down season since he was traded to Philly.
 

Mr Misty

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Except that this is Mason's first bad season since he was in Columbus....

What are you talking about, bad season? All you care about is the 2014-15 and 2015-16 seasons and his numbers then were great. The trend is up up up for Mason. I don't know how Philly will afford his 7m AAV extension, maybe that's why you think they should trade him? They just don't have the cap room for a superstar goalie?
 

Bleedred

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What are you talking about, bad season? All you care about is the 2014-15 and 2015-16 seasons and his numbers then were great. The trend is up up up for Mason. I don't know how Philly will afford his 7m AAV extension, maybe that's why you think they should trade him? They just don't have the cap room for a superstar goalie?

You're missing the point here BIG TIME.

I don't understand why you are going way out of your way to defend a BAD goaltender that's shown a decline for over 2 years now.

The last two years aren't all I care about. The last two years show this is a trend with Lehtonen and that it's continuing this year, even though he hasn't been bad at even strength. Overall though, his save percentage has been in the crapper for 3 consecutive years now.

If Mason starts having consecutive bad years, I'll write him off as being bad or on a decline too. But as of now, he's in his first bad season in a half a decade. Lehtonen is in his third, despite the even strength save percentage being where he usually was pre-2014-2015 when he started declining.

I challenge you to find me a starting goaltender that's been worse than Lehtonen over the last 3 combined seasons in the NHL. Aside from maybe Cam Ward, I'm betting that you're gonna find one.
 

Bleedred

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I do not know if I would use those exact words but like someone said earlier this is Masons 1st really up and down season since he was traded to Philly.

I'm not sure if that post about Mason was serious or not, or just sarcasm to defend Lehtonen and his abysmal past 3 seasons. I'm completely lost on that.

One thing I'm positive that I'm not lost on is that Lehtonen has been a bottom 2 NHL starting goalie for 3 straight years now. This is not a one year deal or even an every other year thing, like Pekka Rinne has fluctuated with in the past several seasons. Even frickin Pavelec had a .920 season 2 years ago. This is 3 straight years of stone cold awful netminding at the NHL level, with the only redeeming factor being that his 5 on 5 save percentage is back to where it was before this decline before 2 seasons ago. I can't even believe that I have to go out of my way to defend why Lehtonen is a terrible goaltender in the year 2017. This is the same forum where John Chayka was a top 5 GM in the NHL before ever even being on the job for a single NHL game and where Murray from Buffalo was another ''top 5 GM'' before this year.:help:
 

Mr Misty

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You're missing the point here BIG TIME.

I don't understand why you are going way out of your way to defend a BAD goaltender that's shown a decline for over 2 years now.

The last two years aren't all I care about. The last two years show this is a trend with Lehtonen and that it's continuing this year, even though he hasn't been bad at even strength. Overall though, his save percentage has been in the crapper for 3 consecutive years now.

If Mason starts having consecutive bad years, I'll write him off as being bad or on a decline too. But as of now, he's in his first bad season in a half a decade. Lehtonen is in his third, despite the even strength save percentage being where he usually was pre-2014-2015 when he started declining.

I challenge you to find me a starting goaltender that's been worse than Lehtonen over the last 3 combined seasons in the NHL. Aside from maybe Cam Ward, I'm betting that you're gonna find one.

Who cares about 3 combined seasons of resume? You only insist on this sample because it fits the conclusion you came to without consulting the evidence. And don't pretend you want three seasons, you don't care what this season's evidence is one bit.

I'll say again: Kari is 5th out of 23 in the NHL in 5v5 SV% among goalies with as much ice time as he has. There are 10 seasons of data on Corsica and this is his best. There is no way this information can be presented as evidence of decline. Saying he is in decline given this information requires some compelling evidence for why he currently has the 33rd highest 5v5 sv% mark in the past decade for goalies with as much icetime in a season.
 

Bleedred

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Who cares about 3 combined seasons of resume? You only insist on this sample because it fits the conclusion you came to without consulting the evidence. And don't pretend you want three seasons, you don't care what this season's evidence is one bit.

I'll say again: Kari is 5th out of 23 in the NHL in 5v5 SV% among goalies with as much ice time as he has. There are 10 seasons of data on Corsica and this is his best. There is no way this information can be presented as evidence of decline. Saying he is in decline given this information requires some compelling evidence for why he currently has the 33rd highest 5v5 sv% mark in the past decade for goalies with as much icetime in a season.

You know what? You're right, I give up! You win!

There is no such thing as goalies declining, the last 2 years is not a trend, it was an an aberration. Kari is only bad because Dallas has a very bad defense and not even Carey Price would have a 5V5 SV% better than Lehtonen's this year, playing behind that awful Dallas team.

The reason I use these 2 straight seasons it that it's become a TREND. Just like Cam Ward's last 4 seasons have become a trend and it's continuing this year, despite having a really good season up until about a month ago.

Who cares about his earlier seasons? They were years ago, it's clear that he's not the same goaltender as he was before 2014. And using this year to say he is? Small sample sizes. That's still 33 games, compared to 108 the 2 years before, where he had a putrid 5V5 save percentage. Which was much worse than even Niemi's last year, despite it being much better than Niemi's this year. Remember the year the Starts were 2nd in the league in scoring (if I'm not mistaken) and missed the playoffs anyway? Remember who had a 5V5 save percentage of below 91% and barely above 90% in 65 games overall? It was so bad, they even went out and got another goaltender to try to alleviate that. Which was a move that really hasn't worked out.
 
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Mr Misty

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You know what? You're right, I give up! You win!

There is no such thing as goalies declining, the last 2 years is not a trend, it was an an aberration. Kari is only bad because Dallas has a very bad defense and not even Carey Price would have a 5V5 SV% better than Lehtonen's this year, playing behind that awful Dallas team.

Our PK strategy is "give up a goal". It's also our 3v3 strategy. And our 4v4 strategy. We are really, really good at following this plan. The best I've ever seen. That Kings game you mentioned featured 3 instances of the Stars not having 5 skaters and the Kings scored 3 goals on special teams. To be fair, Kari did fail to save one pk shot when Hamhuis crosschecked him in the head. Probably that's because he's a bad goalie I guess. And one time he didn't see through Oleksiak who was making a really incredible screen. That's one you hang on Kari as well, because if he was good his 6'7" defenseman wouldn't try to prevent him from seeing a shot.

It's easier to fix these problems than it is to fix somebody's 5v5 sv%. Much, much easier.
 

Bleedred

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Our PK strategy is "give up a goal". It's also our 3v3 strategy. And our 4v4 strategy. We are really, really good at following this plan. The best I've ever seen. That Kings game you mentioned featured 3 instances of the Stars not having 5 skaters and the Kings scored 3 goals on special teams. To be fair, Kari did fail to save one pk shot when Hamhuis crosschecked him in the head. Probably that's because he's a bad goalie I guess. And one time he didn't see through Oleksiak who was making a really incredible screen. That's one you hang on Kari as well, because if he was good his 6'7" defenseman wouldn't try to prevent him from seeing a shot.

It's easier to fix these problems than it is to fix somebody's 5v5 sv%. Much, much easier.

Gimme a break already, every goalie faces these situations.

If Kari Lehtonen is not a bad goalie, who the hell in the NHL is a bad goalie? There must not be any of them at all.
 

Mr Misty

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Gimme a break already, every goalie faces these situations.

If Kari Lehtonen is not a bad goalie, who the hell in the NHL is a bad goalie? There must not be any of them at all.

I'll say again, why is his 5v5 SV% so high if he is bad? Sample size isn't really an answer unless you are skeptical of all goalie numbers at this point, and we are past the number of games played in the lockout season.
 

Bleedred

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I'll say again, why is his 5v5 SV% so high if he is bad? Sample size isn't really an answer unless you are skeptical of all goalie numbers at this point, and we are past the number of games played in the lockout season.

Easy

I think it's an anomaly and I don't expect him to continue to put those kinds of numbers up at 5V5 going past this year, if even for the remainder of this year.

He was abysmal the 110 games before this at even strength. Much worse than Niemi was at even strength last year.

And just think where his overall save percentage would be if he wasn't so good at 5V5 this year. We're talking like probably what, .890-ish?
 

serp

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After 1.5 years of actually watching the Dallas Stars with both Finns i don't think there are many if any who would declare Niemi the better goalie than Lehtonen. There are some big problems with Lehtonen but he's still much more capeable to actually win you games on a somwhat regular basis than Niemi.

Niemi had a very strong start in Dallas but in January / February of last year he completely imploded and posted like a .870%~ SV% for the remainder of last season.

This year its not even a really a question .
 

Bleedred

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After 1.5 years of actually watching the Dallas Stars with both Finns i don't think there are many if any who would declare Niemi the better goalie than Lehtonen. There are some big problems with Lehtonen but he's still much more capeable to actually win you games on a somwhat regular basis than Niemi.

Niemi had a very strong start in Dallas but in January / February of last year he completely imploded and posted like a .870%~ SV% for the remainder of last season.

This year its not even a really a question .

If any goalie on the team last year deserves a pass or more fingers should be pointed at the defense/skaters on the team than the goalie himself, it's definitely Niemi. He allowed an absurd 11 goals on 32 shots faced last year, while the Stars were on the PP. That's unheard of and pretty unlucky. This year, he's allowed 3 goals on 24 shots while the Stars were on the PP. 11 goals on 32 shots in any situation is almost unheard of. Last year, Niemi's even strength save percentage was identical to his final 2 seasons with the Sharks. Lehtonen was just superior on special teams, while Niemi was superior at even strength.

I realize this is not the case this year, as Lehtonen has been fine at even strength, while Niemi has been below average at the very best at even strength.

Last game where Niemi gave up 2 goals on 5 shots, I would ding him on the first goal he allowed, even though it was pretty much Kane driving the net and it was high quality. Not a brutal goal, but kind of stoppable. I wouldn't ding him on the goal after that one on the PP. Went 5 hole but it was a bang bang play from like 2 or 3 feet away. Nilsson gave up two weak goals in that game for Buffalo though. And in that game where they played the Rangers, most of 6 goals were not Niemi's fault, probably one bad one in there. But I'm firmly believe that it's not the blowouts (even though they won that game) where the bad goaltending usually hurts you. It's more noticeable in those 3-2 losses, where one weak goal allowed decides the game.

Though the 3 goals he allowed on 3 shots the other week to Minnesota, those were all at least partially on Niemi. One went right through him from distance, off his angle on another one from a good distance and one of the worst rebounds you can allow on another one.

One of them needs to go next year, the Stars making the playoffs last year with their weak goaltending (which was just as bad last year as it's been this year) is a testament to the team being a pretty good one IMO.
 

BurgoShark

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Lehtonen is 5th in the NHL in 5v5 sv% for goalies with as many minutes as him. If we had any semblance of a PK/4v4/3v3 game he'd be the overlooked good season of the year.

Yep - everyone keeps coming back to the goalies, but the Stars two biggest problems are that their PK sucks and they are horrible at 3v3. They are 2-9 in OT.

Fix the PK - then if you really need to trade a goalie make it Niemi.
 

airbus220

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Feb 19, 2012
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and Flyers do this because?

Stupid thread to include Andrew MacDonald.

PHI knew exactly who MacD was when they signed him, now keep him and don't start stupid threads.
Lehtonen this season is better than Mason and better than Neuvirth.
 

tictactoe

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Stupid thread to include Andrew MacDonald.

PHI knew exactly who MacD was when they signed him, now keep him and don't start stupid threads.
Lehtonen this season is better than Mason and better than Neuvirth.

Really? u sure about that? Because Mason sucked this season and his number are still identical to Lehtonen while plays almost 10 more games. Do no get over heated in Veagas...
 

airbus220

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Really? u sure about that? Because Mason sucked this season and his number are still identical to Lehtonen while plays almost 10 more games. Do no get over heated in Veagas...

You don't think that I have stats Lehtonen with .935 and Mason with .905 for nearly the same amount of shots?

I like Mason. It wasn't only his fault that he is so bad this season.
 

tictactoe

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You don't think that I have stats Lehtonen with .935 and Mason with .905 for nearly the same amount of shots?

I like Mason. It wasn't only his fault that he is so bad this season.
Not a single Flyers fan said that Mason was good this season. Lehtonen and Mason stats are identical this season. Now.. what is it that you are trying to say?
 

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