Analytics be damned!!

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Mimico

Good Ol' Mimico Boy
Aug 25, 2013
228
0
Tarana, Ontario
I love how these hockey nerds devote themselves to possession statistics yet there is only a moderate-at-best correlation to winning. The best is when a team like the Leafs consistently proves them wrong and instead of accepting that their stats really aren't that good they'll just call the Leafs "Lucky". Its golden LOL
 

TMLFAN4LIFE

Registered User
Dec 11, 2006
671
0
they have basically taken a stat like fenwick which actually has a fairly weak correlation with future wins, and are treating it as if it is a much stronger predictor than it actually is. It's correlation with future wins isn't strong enough to suggest its a a clear "cause" separated from all significant "effects", yet they still treat it as if the numbers have shown that we can actual model predictions with fenwick as the "reality", and factors such as sh% and sv% as just luck or small sample variation factors.

fenwick and corsi are nice stats that tell us something, but the conclusions being drawn from them are far too strong to be justified.

and this year is ESPECIALLY glaring because they are insanely drawing these conclusions from a the tiny half-season sample we had last year. even a full season is a small sample for the advanced stats with a weak correlation to future wins - a half-season sample is even weaker by orders of magnitude.

to give a layman's example, let's look at, say, Bozak.

Bozak Career:

Career: .23gpg, .56ppg
12/13: .26ppg, .61ppg
11/12: .25ppg, .64ppg
10/11: .18gpg, .39ppg
09/10: .22ppg, .73ppg

What we see there is a fairly consistent producer over his career. A guy with a hot rookie year, a bit of a sophomore slump, who then settled in between there the next two years, just a tad above his career average.

We have a solid track record to work off of here, which would give us very good reason to predict him to come in again around .25ppg/.60ppg level this year.

But an "Analytics Guy" is not allowed to draw this fairly simple conclusion, because last year Bozak had a 19.7sh%, an 11.1on-ice sh%, and a 1027 pdo. The "analytics guy" will be forced to claim that Bozak is very likely to suffer significant regression this year from last year's production - despite the fact that that would mean Bozak would "regress" to a level well below his relatively consistent career norms - career norms that were established before last year, even with less "lucky" advanced statistics.

So for an Analytics Guy, Bozak overachieved last year and is due for regression this year - even though Bozak simply continued on scoring at his typical career level last year.

And in fact, when you actually look at all the leafs' career production, weighted for recentness and adjusted for minutes played, it's very hard to argue that many leafs overachieved offensively last year, despite what the advanced stats say. About the only two leafs who played a significant amount of games that could legitimately be said to overachieve were kadri and franson - but even then, those were young guys gettting their first legit offensive opportunities, so their lack of track record is hard to hold against them. And moreover, a number of players, either due to poor performance or injury, clearly underachieved last year to balance those guys out - Lupul, Grabo, gardiner in particular.

What we've ended up with is having so many people with a fairly poor understanding of statistics, who have developed unjustified tunnel vision when it comes to these possession stats - they have literally convinced themselves that last year's half-season sample of possession stats has to be the "base" of their analysis, and are actually completely disregarding contrary facts like the Bozak example I showed above. For them, it doesn't matter that Bozak scored at his usual rate last year - he has to be due regression, because the advanced stats from a half-season sample size say that he was lucky last year.

They're making a big mistake, IMO.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

Well said, sir.
 

Penalty Kill Icing*

Guest
Momentum exists. In all sports.

Play it. Then you will believe it. Or else, you'll write countless articles about it not existing.
 

TieClark

Registered User
Jun 14, 2011
4,112
0
Ah, yes, this old bit.

It's funny I get accused of writing about "nothing but Corsi" all the time, but the reality is that it's actually rarely mentioned. You can search for yourself - on The Globe's website: 1,200+ articles, eight mentions of Corsi, ever.

All of my work is easy to sort through - as this link shows, very few of the stories recently are linked to or about advanced statistics.

I've been a lurker and reader on hfboards for a long, long time, but this criticism lately is really off base and frankly absurd. I understand that this type of analysis isn't for everyone, but I'm not doing it out of bias or Leafs hatred or for any other reason than it's another way to understand and write about the game.

The regression analysis I wrote about this week (wrote about, not invented, by the way) was used by analysts to predict the 2011-12 Wild team that was first in the NHL in mid-December would struggle to close the season, and that the eighth-seeded Kings that year were a contender despite their low position in the standings. Among many, many other things that have nothing to do with the Leafs.

No one in the traditional media made those predictions that season.

This stuff isn't going away - in fact, the work I see some people doing online is getting more impressive (and accurate) than ever. It's fine if some people aren't interested and find this a bit arcane - that I understand. It's a niche. But these constant potshots aren't fair and have little basis in reality.

Thanks.
Every. Single. Article.


Regardless of whether or not you want to acknowledge it or even realize you do it, every article you write is directly linked with advanced statistics, whether you're referencing them in the article or simply forming a view point on something in particular, you're entirely view on the game is based on the statistics.

If you don't believe it, think of one example where you believe something that directly contradicts the advanced statistics.
 

jakapono24

Registered User
Oct 20, 2011
170
0
Toronto, ON
I don't speak for the 'analytics' community, but I think some clarifications need to be made. First of all, some of the 'analytics' enthusiasts (like myself) have played competitive sports. Second of all, some (I'd argue most, if not all) of us watch the games, and very few of us solely rely on 'spreadsheets' (a blanket term for looking at stats). Calling those who look at some of these metrics 'nerds', to support your claim that stats are evil, is a clear fallacy.

Also, for those who say momentum exists because you've played sports: It's important to make the distinction between the appearance of momentum, and the actual existence of momentum. Evidence (not anecdotal) is necessary to verify that claim, what you are doing is taking an authoritative position and claiming that because you are the 'expert', you know more than the 'nerds', which is a logical fallacy.
 

jakapono24

Registered User
Oct 20, 2011
170
0
Toronto, ON
Every. Single. Article.


Regardless of whether or not you want to acknowledge it or even realize you do it, every article you write is directly linked with advanced statistics, whether you're referencing them in the article or simply forming a view point on something in particular, you're entirely view on the game is based on the statistics.

If you don't believe it, think of one example where you believe something that directly contradicts the advanced statistics.

His last 3 articles have no mention of advanced statistics. One is about age, the other two about fighting. I'm not sure why you are bating him, but it'd be helpful if you had actually provided some evidence (specifically to the claim that he used them in every article). It's okay to disagree with Mirtle, but let's not start attacking him without proper cause.
 
Feb 24, 2004
5,490
611
Every. Single. Article.


Regardless of whether or not you want to acknowledge it or even realize you do it, every article you write is directly linked with advanced statistics, whether you're referencing them in the article or simply forming a view point on something in particular, you're entirely view on the game is based on the statistics.

If you don't believe it, think of one example where you believe something that directly contradicts the advanced statistics.

Do you realize you completely missed his point?

Regardless about how wrong you are about other things, he said that he doesn't reference Corsi as frequently as was claimed. Your response insinuated that he was wrong because he references advanced stats in every article.

I hope you realize that Corsi and advanced stats aren't completely synonymous....
 
Feb 24, 2004
5,490
611
Momentum exists. In all sports.

Play it. Then you will believe it. Or else, you'll write countless articles about it not existing.

I've played plenty of competitive sports, thanks. But yes - looking for a deeper understanding of things means that can't be true, right?

Listen - I know the momentum thing is like finding out there's no Santa Claus.
 

Penalty Kill Icing*

Guest
I've played plenty of competitive sports, thanks. But yes - looking for a deeper understanding of things means that can't be true, right?

Listen - I know the momentum thing is like finding out there's no Santa Claus.

Good. Now that you realised that there is no Santa Claus, time for you to find out that momentum exists. :laugh:
 
Feb 24, 2004
5,490
611
So now you've reduced yourself to using petty insults? That's definitely how you win arguments. Good job.

Yes - because the comments I've responded to have been so full of reasoned analysis.

Let me ask you a question: can you define momentum?
 

Duke Silver

Truce?
Jun 4, 2008
8,610
1,942
Toronto/St. John's
Every. Single. Article.


Regardless of whether or not you want to acknowledge it or even realize you do it, every article you write is directly linked with advanced statistics, whether you're referencing them in the article or simply forming a view point on something in particular, you're entirely view on the game is based on the statistics.

If you don't believe it, think of one example where you believe something that directly contradicts the advanced statistics.

The question we should ask is: Could James Mirtle provide an ounce of hockey insight without a boxscore/online database at his disposal?

It's for this reason that I put a hell of a lot more stock in what someone like Justin Bourne does when analyzing the game.

Not to mention, it seem like everything Mirtle writes about is just laying the groundwork for a future "I told you so". There is such a level of arrogance to the arguments of he and his fellow stat-heads.
 

GordieHoweHatTrick

Registered User
Sep 20, 2009
16,463
280
Toronto
Leafs have some real good shooters that don't typically take low % shots. One of the most exciting offenses in the league. Possession numbers will have to increase though
 

n1ck13

Registered User
Jul 28, 2013
77
0
Yes - because the comments I've responded to have been so full of reasoned analysis.

Let me ask you a question: can you define momentum?

The first step to defining momentum would be to find something that all hockey people agree on could be an emotionally charged situation, whether it be a fight, goal scored, big hit, etc. From that point, you would need to begin tracking changes in player's data versus themselves, to see if they are playing above their level.
 

Duke Silver

Truce?
Jun 4, 2008
8,610
1,942
Toronto/St. John's
Yes - because the comments I've responded to have been so full of reasoned analysis.

Let me ask you a question: can you define momentum?

Would the Oxford Dictionary of Sports Science suffice?

It defines psychological momentum as, "the positive or negative change in cognition, affect, physiology, and behavior caused by an event or series of events that affects either the perceptions of the competitors or, perhaps, the quality of performance and the outcome of the competition. Positive momentum is associated with periods of competition, such as a winning streak, in which everything seems to ‘go right’ for the competitors. In contrast, negative momentum is associated with periods, such as a losing streak, when everything seems to ‘go wrong’."
 

Jimmy Firecracker

Fire Sheldon.
Mar 30, 2010
36,385
35,887
Mississauga
Yes - because the comments I've responded to have been so full of reasoned analysis.

Let me ask you a question: can you define momentum?

There have been a few posts since your last posts earlier today that you've conveniently ignored.

Not sure what defining it is going to do. You won't change your mind anyways. The while point of momentum is that it can't truly be defined, quantified, or studied on a stat sheet. Like I said before, there are way too many factors that can happen in sports that can effect team morale and their emotions. A team who is fighting for their playoff hopes is going to battle harder than a team who's already clinched a playoff berth. Teams fighting to stave off elimination in the playoffs are going to battle harder than they ever have. A soft goal by the goalie can deflate a team, or a brilliant glove save can give them the confidence that they can win. To try to define momentum and attach numbers to it is trying taking the humanity out of the sport. We're not robots for Christ's sake.

Duke just posted a pretty good definition himself above. If that doesn't satisfy you still then nothing will I guess.

On another note, most people so far agree with me here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1510295 Though 43 votes is hardly enough to draw a full conclusion on what this site thinks, it's not a terrible representation.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
Ah, yes, this old bit.

It's funny I get accused of writing about "nothing but Corsi" all the time, but the reality is that it's actually rarely mentioned. You can search for yourself - on The Globe's website: 1,200+ articles, eight mentions of Corsi, ever.

All of my work is easy to sort through - as this link shows, very few of the stories recently are linked to or about advanced statistics.

I've been a lurker and reader on hfboards for a long, long time, but this criticism lately is really off base and frankly absurd. I understand that this type of analysis isn't for everyone, but I'm not doing it out of bias or Leafs hatred or for any other reason than it's another way to understand and write about the game.

The regression analysis I wrote about this week (wrote about, not invented, by the way) was used by analysts to predict the 2011-12 Wild team that was first in the NHL in mid-December would struggle to close the season, and that the eighth-seeded Kings that year were a contender despite their low position in the standings. Among many, many other things that have nothing to do with the Leafs.

No one in the traditional media made those predictions that season.

This stuff isn't going away - in fact, the work I see some people doing online is getting more impressive (and accurate) than ever. It's fine if some people aren't interested and find this a bit arcane - that I understand. It's a niche. But these constant potshots aren't fair and have little basis in reality.

Thanks.

Just three questions, James:

1) Given your assessment of Reimer and Bernier's talent and track records, is it logical to believe the Leafs' sv% will be significantly worse than it was last year?

2) Given each player's track record of offensive production (weighted for recentness and adjusted for minutes), which players do you feel significantly overproduced last year in terms of total scoring, and which players are you specifically expecting to see significant regression from? (and, of course, which players if any would it be logical to expect more total offense from?)

3) All evidence we have indicates that even full-season team corsi is a relatively weak future predictor.Team stats based on a sample half as big, such as last year, will of course be much, much weaker in terms of future prediction. Why should we dismiss the individual track records of production (which, in the leafs' case, indicates both that the Leafs will be a very high scoring team AND a very high save percentage team) in favor of a half-sized sample of an already weak predictor?
 
Last edited:
Feb 24, 2004
5,490
611
There have been a few posts since your last posts earlier today that you've conveniently ignored.

Not sure what defining it is going to do. You won't change your mind anyways. The while point of momentum is that it can't truly be defined, quantified, or studied on a stat sheet. Like I said before, there are way too many factors that can happen in sports that can effect team morale and their emotions. A team who is fighting for their playoff hopes is going to battle harder than a team who's already clinched a playoff berth. Teams fighting to stave off elimination in the playoffs are going to battle harder than they ever have. A soft goal by the goalie can deflate a team, or a brilliant glove save can give them the confidence that they can win. To try to define momentum and attach numbers to it is trying taking the humanity out of the sport. We're not robots for Christ's sake.

Duke just posted a pretty good definition himself above. If that doesn't satisfy you still then nothing will I guess.

On another note, most people so far agree with me here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1510295 Though 43 votes is hardly enough to draw a full conclusion on what this site thinks, it's not a terrible representation.

Duke's response (the definition of momentum from the dictionary) references words like "perception" and phrases like "everything seems to go wrong". As I've mentioned a few times (and you and others have conveniently ignored) - just because it seems like it exists doesn't mean that it actually does.

Just because you feel deep down that it exists doesn't mean that it actually does. Sort of like Santa Claus.
 

Jimmy Firecracker

Fire Sheldon.
Mar 30, 2010
36,385
35,887
Mississauga
Duke's response (the definition of momentum from the dictionary) references words like "perception" and phrases like "everything seems to go wrong". As I've mentioned a few times (and you and others have conveniently ignored) - just because it seems like it exists doesn't mean that it actually does.

Just because you feel deep down that it exists doesn't mean that it actually does. Sort of like Santa Claus.

Ch.

Okay. If you want to continue to believe that hockey is a game played on paper then by all means, do as you please. If you're going to sit here and tell me my eyes are flat out lying to me when a team on the ice clearly steps up their play during a game, or there's a clear momentum shift, then by all means, pat yourself on the back. The majority of hockey people (and sports people in general) will tell you momentum exists, perceived or not.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
79,185
54,415
Eh. There are flaws in advanced stats, but I will take it over the 'eye test' and various other visual cues like 'watching the game' that are even more flawed when it comes to player evaluation.

So you'd rather be compiling numbers than actually watching the sport?
 
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