All-X2 Draft Sign Up Thread

[Frightened Inmate #2]

So when I come up with solid points you just reply that I am rating your team low out of spite. Well guess what no I am not.

And Punch Imlach was drafted before your coach, so who is to say that it wasn't Imlach that was the coahc tat set it all off. Your just making wild guesses that everyone wanted your coach, and by proxy that means that your team should be rated better.

Robinson won the norris two times, and I think Wilson won it once.

I find it laughable that your are promoting your Russians because of how great they are, and then trash my team because they didn't play in the NHL playoffs.

And questioning my hockey knowledge is useless, and just shows how bloody desprite you are to slavage anything from the wreck that is known at the Hamilton Tigers.... average to weak team in the draft, but nowhere near the top three as you promote them, and especially not going with your reasoning for that placement.

I don't know much about Wilson. He was a solid offensive defensman.... Powerplay specialist, and from what I can recall his defensive play wasn't spectacular to say the least.

 

[monkey_00*]

So when I come up with solid points you just reply that I am rating your team low out of spite. Well guess what no I am not.

Ya you are.

And Punch Imlach was drafted before your coach, so who is to say that it wasn't Imlach that was the coahc tat set it all off. Your just making wild guesses that everyone wanted your coach, and by proxy that means that your team should be rated better.

I still would have selected Viktor Tikhonov still.......and it was in that draft round when I selected Tikhonov that set off half of the guys in our draft to go on to select their head coach.

Robinson won the norris two times, and I think Wilson won it once.

Good finally you have something positive to say about Wilson.....don't forget Chara and your Russian guy Vladimir Lutchenko.

I find it laughable that your are promoting your Russians because of how great they are, and then trash my team because they didn't play in the NHL playoffs.

Laugh some more why don't you...............I have 3-Russians on my hockey club....I have all the respect in the world for their skill level HOWEVER I didn't go overboard with the Russians like you did with yours..........I picked Pavel Bure and he's already proven to everybody that he would excell in the NHL cause he did..........I picked Yakushev because he was the best player from Russia against the Canadians in 1972 PLUS was more of a North-American style hockey player and not your prototypical Russian-style hockey player.......Vladimir Lutchenko only allowed Team Canada to score once against the Soviets in 1972 everytime he was on the ice.....he was abrick wall for the Soviets.....SO the 3-Russians that I selected to go and play for my hockey club fits the mold better of North American style play..........and Viktor Tikhonov is ALOT smarter than you are giving him credit for..........I know that you would be jumping all over the place in here bragging to everybody that he was your coach IF you had gone on to select him which you didn't..............oh well.

And questioning my hockey knowledge is useless, and just shows how bloody desprite you are to slavage anything from the wreck that is known at the Hamilton Tigers.... average to weak team in the draft, but nowhere near the top three as you promote them, and especially not going with your reasoning for that placement.

Why should I not question your hockey knowledge?.........you just finsihed telling everybody in here that you don't know much about Vladimir Lutchenko and yet YOU'RE supposed to be the Hockey Guru around here when it comes to Russian hockey players..........now THAT'S laughable.

You drafted very well but you did a lousy job of ranking the hockey teams IMO.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

well about my hockey knowledge, it is very hard to get a grasp of a player not having seen them for the majority of their career. I am sure that you have seen the 1972 Summit series as many times as I have (around 10 times). I know who Lutchenko is, but at the same time we are talking about an event that Paul Henderson excelled in and played very well, and I am sure we all know that Henderson is not an all time great. The amount of info regarding Russian players is also lacking in quality as I am sure you know.

I had a different view on your team, and one that appears to be shared with other posters (BM67 who has a great knowledge of the game from every post I have read).

your ship was sunk when you refered to Smith, McSorley, and Greschner as great defensemen. Sure they won cups, but so did Charlie Huddy, and Randy Gregg, but they are not all time greats either. you selected #3/4 defensemen for a team and are surprised when people don't rate them high....

Also seeing as though you are now the god of russian hoceky knowledge can you share what type of player Lutchenko was?

 

[monkey_00*]

well about my hockey knowledge, it is very hard to get a grasp of a player not having seen them for the majority of their career. I am sure that you have seen the 1972 Summit series as many times as I have (around 10 times). I know who Lutchenko is, but at the same time we are talking about an event that Paul Henderson excelled in and played very well, and I am sure we all know that Henderson is not an all time great. The amount of info regarding Russian players is also lacking in quality as I am sure you know.

I had a different view on your team, and one that appears to be shared with other posters (BM67 who has a great knowledge of the game from every post I have read).

your ship was sunk when you refered to Smith, McSorley, and Greschner as great defensemen. Sure they won cups, but so did Charlie Huddy, and Randy Gregg, but they are not all time greats either. you selected #3/4 defensemen for a team and are surprised when people don't rate them high....

Also seeing as though you are now the god of russian hoceky knowledge can you share what type of player Lutchenko was?

Very Funny.........My ship was sunk?............ummm ok....if you say so........I didn't say Smith and McSorely were great what I did say instead is those GREAT high flying Edmonton Oilers were smart enough to know that they also needed some pluggers and muckers in their lineup like McSorely and Smith to help them win the Championships........as well, I have great group of Starting FOUR with: Robinson, Chara, Wilson and Lutchenko who would be playing for 85-to-90% of the time for my Hamilton Tigers.........Smith and Greschner would be 10-to15% of the ice time........my #5 and 6 guys back there are not nearly as good as my first FOUR but that's because my strategy in this draft was to concentrate on picking a solid Goalie first like Dryden (one of my top 3 selectons) and then I focused more on my forwards after I drafted Larry Robinson........I notice you only had a 1-line blur regarding my forwards...something to the extent of: "Oh...I almost forgot these guys.......yada yada yada" :lol

Anyways good luck with the next draft............I never said you two guys weren't knowledgable when it comes to hockey because if I REALLY felt that I wouldn't have even bothered to respond to any of your posts.........you drafted very well I have told you that more than once already.......I also told you two that I think BM67 did extremely well with his first 3-selections in our draft...........the only thing I was having a problem with I feel that you unfairly ranked my team as low as you did and when I was trying to come up with the reasoning for it I automatically assumed that it had something to do with me selected Tikhonov, Yakushev, Lutchenko and Bure to be on my hockey clubs especially when you consider that most of the guys on your roster were of Russian-decent........it was pretty obvious to everybody in here where you were going with your draft selections....out of all the participants in this draft your team was the most predictable one...........

I"m not going to go on any further with this because I feel that I have already made my points and I don't want to keep repeating the same things over and over again which is beginning to happen in here already.................good luck to you in the next draft.

Cheers!

 

[BM67]

OK, here's a simple one for you monkey.

Compare Keon and Lach. What are their strengths and weaknesses? Tell me why Lach wont cut it but Keon will.

Doug Mohns and Marty McSorley.

Henri Richard and Frank Boucher.

Charlie Conacher and Tim Kerr.

Pavel Bure and Peter Bondra.

Joe Sakic and Stan Mikita.

Doug Wilson and Mark Howe.

Butch Goring and Teeder Kennedy.

Dickie Moore and John Tonelli.

Alexander Yakushev and Ted Lindsay.

Bob Gainey and Woody Dumart.

Denis Savard and Syl Apps Sr..

Zdeno Chara and Earl Seibert.

Dino Ciccarelli and Newsy Lalonde.

Larry Robinson and Bobby Orr.

Alexander Yakushev and Tim Horton.

Ken Dryden and Dominik Hasek.

Jerome Iginla and Dit Clapper.

 

[monkey_00*]

Geez Thanks BM67....................

Doug Mohns and Marty McSorley...McSorely over Mohns...McSorely very versatile....played defence and forward...very under-rated BUT he will be my teams enforcer and has couple of Stanley Cup rings....Mohns played in a different ERA.

Henri Richard and Frank Boucher....Henri Richard is the owner of 11-Stanley Cup rings which is an NHL record.....this one is a tie though.

Charlie Conacher and Tim Kerr...This one was VERY easy....Conacher is one of those ancient wonders on your hockey club...Kerr is a modern day warrior who holds the alltime NHL record for most Powerplay goals in a season...plus 4-consecutive 50+ goal seasons...How many times did Conacher score 50+ goals in a season?.....exactly..........if we were only drafting players from Pre-1950 then Conacher would be a great pick.

Pavel Bure and Peter Bondra....are you SERIOUS?

Joe Sakic and Stan Mikita....this one was a close one but again I pick Sakic...lead Team Canada to Gold medal...Stanley Cups in modern day NHL with the Avs...he's one of my team's leaders...Mikita is another of those handful of players that I feel would excell in today's NHL though.

Doug Wilson and Mark Howe....this one was also a very close one but I like Wilson better....Mark has that "HOWE" name...how high would you rank him if he had ANOTHER last name?.....what if his name was Mark WILSON?....this one is a tie

Butch Goring and Teeder Kennedy....this one is a tie but I still like Goring better simply because he played in a more challenging ERA than Kennedy...Kennedy only had to win 2-rounds of hockey to win the Stanley Cup...Goring's Islanders had to go through 4-rounds.....most people would still pick Kennedy.

Dickie Moore and John Tonelli....I like John Tonelli better...he was a playoff warrior if there ever was one...again more of a modern day player compared to Moore...Tonelli was also the 1984 Canada Cup MVP...I would be using Tonelli from that 1984 season of play.

Alexander Yakushev and Ted Lindsay...Lindsey was great player in his day I have all the respect for him but he was too small and would have tough time duplicating his numbers in today's NHL...Yakushev has the size and his style fits perfectly with the style of today's NHL...always the best guy for the Russians against the Canadians...almost always the top goalscorer for them.

Bob Gainey and Woody Dumart...This one is probably the easiest...Bob Gainey is probably the best defensive player of alltime...he has 4-Selke trophies to prove it...plus strong leadership abilities...the Russians whenever they played the Monreal Canadiens would say that he (Gainey) was the best player on their team.

Denis Savard and Syl Apps Sr....this one was close....Denis Savard is one of my alltime favorites....he just didn't have the good fortune to be playing on some better hockey clubs...that's what happens when you play for Bill Wirtz's Chicago Blackhawks...Apps was all-around great athlete and has the Stanley Cup rings so I picked him...he's only a handful of players that I feel would do good playing in today's NHL.

Zdeno Chara and Earl Seibert....Chara if he played in Seiberts ERA would be the best defencemen in the NHL.

Dino Ciccarelli and Newsy Lalonde...you win this one here easy.

Larry Robinson and Bobby Orr....I already told you that you selected the best player in the draft....Robinson is no prima-donna either.

Alexander Yakushev and Tim Horton....both guys played different positions....I'm a huge Horton fan though...........did you mean Lutchenko and Horton?

Ken Dryden and Dominik Hasek...this one is a tie...I've often said that Hasek is the greatest Goalie alltime to have never won the Cup before he won the Cup with Detroit...on the other hand Dryden helped the Habs win the Stanley Cup in his rookie season...Dryden also won the Conn Smythe that season and the Calder...but this one too was very close.

Jerome Iginla and Dit Clapper...The players of today are better than the players from the past...Iginla is probably the best player in the NHL today.

 

[monkey_00*]

BM67.............

I notice you forgot to include Glenn Anderson...he's also my my Hamilton Tigers PLUS the other two Goalie we picked............my other two Vladimir Dzurilla and Ron Hextall I pick over your other two of Turk Broda and George Hainsworth........those other two goalies of yours played without a mask.............as well you don't have enough grit and toughness on your roster.............I also have more proven playoff warriors........7-Conn Smythe trophy winners.....more NHL CLUTCH players with guys like Sakic and Anderson who are the #1 and #2 guys respectively in alltime NHL playoff overtime goals scored...........I also have one of the better Powerplay units in the League with Savard-Kerr-Bure up front and Robinson and Wilson at the points.......

Some of the teams in this draft look good on paper with all that talent BUT how would they do in a real tournament?.....that is the question.........for example if you look at those New York Islanders of the 1980s that won 4-consecutive Stanley Cups each of those 4-seasons the Islanders didn't finish first overall in the NHL standings...some will even say that on paper there were a couple of other teams in the League at the time who were better than those Islanders and yet those guys won 4-straight Cups?......How can this be?.........The Islanders back then did a smart job of building their hockey teams....they had some talent (Bossy, Potvin, Trottier)....they had some toughness (Gillies, Nystrom Tonelli)....they had some grit (Goring, Brent Sutter).....they had a little of everything which is what you need to build yourself a Championship calibre hockey team........this is exactly what I've done with my team...........

Another example would be 1972 Team Canada from the Summit Series....many guys on that team were better on paper than Ron Ellis-Bobby Clarke and Paul Henderson but these 3-guys were the most effective against the Soviets.........another example would be Team Canada 1984.......they had the likes of Gretzky and Bossy playing on their team and who was voted the tournament MVP?...John Tonelli.........I could go on and on using example after example.........the way that some of the guys went on in this draft baffles me......even the NHL GMs will tell you that you can't buildup your roster with pure talent and finess players and forget about guys who are better suited to play the checking and defensive roles.........oh well...........this draft was alot of fun.

 

[BM67]

Doug Mohns and Marty McSorley...McSorely over Mohns...McSorely very versatile....played defence and forward...very under-rated BUT he will be my teams enforcer and has couple of Stanley Cup rings....Mohns played in a different ERA.

After that I don't know why I bother, as you prove you don't know who Doug Mohns is, and continue to spew nonsense. Doug Mohns played 22 years in the NHL, 53-75, without spending a day in the minors. He played in 7 all-star games (54, 58, 59, 61, 62, 65, 72) as both a defenseman and a left wing. He was the second defenseman to score 20 goals in a season in 59-60. He finished 9th in league scoring in 67. He had one of the hardest slapshots in the league, and was also one of the fastest skaters. Bobby Hull told him when he was in Chicago that he was getting older and he would some day beat him in a race. He never looked for fights but could handle himself when challenged. He was never one to shy away from the rough play and was actually motivated by it.

Henri Richard and Frank Boucher....Henri Richard is the owner of 11-Stanley Cup rings which is an NHL record.....this one is a tie though.

I don't care how many Cups he won, what was he like as a player?

Charlie Conacher and Tim Kerr...This one was VERY easy....Conacher is one of those ancient wonders on your hockey club...Kerr is a modern day warrior who holds the alltime NHL record for most Powerplay goals in a season...plus 4-consecutive 50+ goal seasons...How many times did Conacher score 50+ goals in a season?.....exactly..........if we were only drafting players from Pre-1950 then Conacher would be a great pick.

How many times did Kerr lead the league in goals? None, he finished 2nd once, and 3rd twice. Conacher led the league 5 times. Kerr managed to finish as high as 9 th in scoring in 87. Charlie won 2 scoring titles. His 57 points in 35 wasn't topped in 5 years. It wasn't until scoring started climbing during WWII that it was bettered. Conacher was the premier goal scorer of his day, with the hardest shot in the league. Has Kerr ever put a puck through the boards at Maple Leaf Garden? Charlie has. Conacher's willingness to go through the net to score is what led to the injuries that eventually ended his scoring reign. Nets didn't move in those days. Charlie was also an able fighter. He didn’t go looking for trouble, but if it came along he would clear it up. Usually with only a punch or two.

Pavel Bure and Peter Bondra....are you SERIOUS?

These aren't to prove my teams better, but to prove you are capable of saying something of value. I haven't seen much of that yet.

Joe Sakic and Stan Mikita....this one was a close one but again I pick Sakic...lead Team Canada to Gold medal...Stanley Cups in modern day NHL with the Avs...he's one of my team's leaders...Mikita is another of those handful of players that I feel would excell in today's NHL though.

Again I'm underwelmed with your deep insight. The fact that Mikita won the Art Ross, Hart Trophy and Lady Byng in 67 & 68 doesn't impress you at all? Is that too far bak in pre-history? Add in that he was a selke worthy defender, and that he held the single season assist and point records at the time of expansion, and if he hadn't suffered a back injury in 1970 that made him "a shadow of himself", he might have challenged Gordie Howe for a few career records, and you begin to see why he was in the top 20 of THN's top 100 list.

Doug Wilson and Mark Howe....this one was also a very close one but I like Wilson better....Mark has that "HOWE" name...how high would you rank him if he had ANOTHER last name?.....what if his name was Mark WILSON?....this one is a tie

That's why Mark finished 2nd in Norris voting 3 times? Wilson had a better shot, and was a better goal scorer, but Mark was better at everything else. Doug won the Norris in 82 because he scored 39 goals. He never got a sniff at 30 goals or the Norris ever again.

Butch Goring and Teeder Kennedy....this one is a tie but I still like Goring better simply because he played in a more challenging ERA than Kennedy...Kennedy only had to win 2-rounds of hockey to win the Stanley Cup...Goring's Islanders had to go through 4-rounds.....most people would still pick Kennedy.

That really tells me how good they were as players doesn't it.

Dickie Moore and John Tonelli....I like John Tonelli better...he was a playoff warrior if there ever was one...again more of a modern day player compared to Moore...Tonelli was also the 1984 Canada Cup MVP...I would be using Tonelli from that 1984 season of play.

That fact that Moore is regarded as one of the best clutch playoff scorers of all time doesn't factor in I guess. Moore was a tenacious digger in the corner, that never took a shift off. He won his first of two Art Ross Trophies while wearing a cast on his wrist for 3 months. He set the single season scoring record with 96 points in 59, and then led all scorers again in the playoffs with 17 points in 11 games. He came out of retirement to help the Blues to the finals in 68, and finished 2nd in playoff scoring, despite having to ice his knees after ever game. "I haven't seen anything like that in a long time. Not since I was in St. Louis and Dickie Moore was icing his knee after every game have I seen anything like Yzerman." - Scotty Bowman

Alexander Yakushev and Ted Lindsay...Lindsey was great player in his day I have all the respect for him but he was too small and would have tough time duplicating his numbers in today's NHL...Yakushev has the size and his style fits perfectly with the style of today's NHL...always the best guy for the Russians against the Canadians...almost always the top goalscorer for them.

Yakushev wasn't a very physical player, so his size isn't that big a factor. The fact that he was only once an all-star in the Soviet Union, is more telling that what he did in a couple of tournaments.

Bob Gainey and Woody Dumart...This one is probably the easiest...Bob Gainey is probably the best defensive player of alltime...he has 4-Selke trophies to prove it...plus strong leadership abilities...the Russians whenever they played the Monreal Canadiens would say that he (Gainey) was the best player on their team.

You don't have anything to say about Dumart?

Denis Savard and Syl Apps Sr....this one was close....Denis Savard is one of my alltime favorites....he just didn't have the good fortune to be playing on some better hockey clubs...that's what happens when you play for Bill Wirtz's Chicago Blackhawks...Apps was all-around great athlete and has the Stanley Cup rings so I picked him...he's only a handful of players that I feel would do good playing in today's NHL.

Yet you passed on Apps in the dispersal draft. hmm...

Zdeno Chara and Earl Seibert....Chara if he played in Seiberts ERA would be the best defencemen in the NHL.

He's been the biggest player in the NHL for quite a while now. How many times has he been the best defenseman on his team? Once? Twice? How many players has he put in the hospital with his monsterous power?

Dino Ciccarelli and Newsy Lalonde...you win this one here easy.

And why is that?

Larry Robinson and Bobby Orr....I already told you that you selected the best player in the draft....Robinson is no prima-donna either.

So how close is it?

Alexander Yakushev and Tim Horton....both guys played different positions....I'm a huge Horton fan though...........did you mean Lutchenko and Horton?

Yeah Lutchenko.

Ken Dryden and Dominik Hasek...this one is a tie...I've often said that Hasek is the greatest Goalie alltime to have never won the Cup before he won the Cup with Detroit...on the other hand Dryden helped the Habs win the Stanley Cup in his rookie season...Dryden also won the Conn Smythe that season and the Calder...but this one too was very close.

But Dryden played in the deep dark past! How can it be close?

Jerome Iginla and Dit Clapper...The players of today are better than the players from the past...Iginla is probably the best player in the NHL today.

Some of todays players are better than some of the players from the past. Is Clapper one of the lesser players? Maybe, but you haven't given any reasons for it. Was he too small? No. Was he too poor a skater? No. Was he a one dimensional player? No. Was he a Pisces? Maybe that's it, I'll have to check.

 

[BM67]

BM67.............

I notice you forgot to include Glenn Anderson...as well you don't have enough grit and toughness on your roster

I didn't do all the players, but then I did do more than I needed to see that you aren't much for giving solid reasons for your opinions.

As for grit and toughness, I don't lack that in any way shape or form. My guys might be smaller than I'd like but they don't lack in heart and fire, and a liking for the rougher side of the game. Ted Lindsay is small, but he's the only player to have led the NHL in goals, assists, points and penalty minutes.

My players are bigger on average than the Sutter brothers, have a similar work ethic, and more talent to top it off.

 

[monkey_00*]

I didn't do all the players, but then I did do more than I needed to see that you aren't much for giving solid reasons for your opinions.

I know you didn't do all the players and why not?

All's I know is that you first hopped on the thread declaring to everybody that "I didn't have the Top 3 of anything on my roster.......and then I responded with this:

BM67..........

That's not entirely accurate........besides having 7-Conn Smythe trophy winners; which I believe is tops in this draft I also have the winningest coach in International hockey; Viktor Tikhonov....I don't buy the arguement that my team was placed a couple of spots lower than it should have been because of "the coach selection".....Brenton Fraser (formerly Maxwell Edison) ranks my coaching low simply because he drafted a team made up of mostly Russians and he wanted to draft Viktor Tikhonov for himself but I beat him to the punch......not only that but Tikhonov had good record against NHL clubs as well........and don't forget how the Soviet National team did against the NHLers back in 1981........

I also have plenty of big game players....and by "big game" I mean players that really excelled in the playoffs.....besides having the 7-Conn Smythe trophy winners which I've already outlined you also have to consider the following:

(1) Joe Sakic is FIRST alltime in playoff overtime Goals
(2) Glenn Anderson is SECOND alltime in playoff overtime Goals

..........so I have the top 2 guys alltime on my team for NHL playoff overtime goals as well:

(3) Tim Kerr who holds the NHL record for most powerplay goals in a season with 34
(4) I have the "X-Factor" on my team John Tonelli who was the 1984 Canada Cup MVP......damn great players in the NHL playoffs too.

My top line of Yakushev-Sakic-Bure is as good as any in this League........

I also have the top defensive forward alltime; 4-Selke trophy winner Bob Gainey playing on my checking line with Mr.Playoffs Butch Goring at Centre and Jarome Iginla on the right side to add some scoring punch and toughness to my checking line........this line would really excell going up against anybody's top line I feel.........

I also have Henri Richard who has 11-Stanley Cups...an NHL record.....
=======================================================

The next area you decided to look at was the size of our two hockey clubs........your arguement was that my forwards are similar size to your forwards........and this is what I responded with:

OK next on the agenda the team's overall size.........that was a comparison you have there between our two groups of forwards....but now let's see what happens when your forwards have to go up against my defencemen who are the BIGGEST group of D-men in the entire draft.........

Hamilton Tigers D: 6’3.5â€, 215.3 (6’3.1â€, 218.1) r-l 1-6
N Jersy Devils: F: 5’10.8â€, 182.7 (5’10.8â€, 184) r-l 6-7

Big Difference right?..........that's what your small forwards will have to go up against.........

Zdeno Chara, D – 6’9â€, 255
Larry Robinson, D – 6’4â€, 225
Steve Smith, D – 6’4â€, 215
Ron Greschner, D – 6’2â€, 205
Dit Clapper, D/RW - 6’2â€, 195
Marty McSorley, D – 6’1â€, 235 r
Vladimir Lutchenko, D – 6’1â€, 205
Peter Bondra, RW - 6’1â€, 205
Charlie Conacher, RW - 6’1â€, 202
Doug Wilson, D – 6’1â€, 187
Woody Dumart, LW - 6’0â€, 200
John MacLean, RW - 6’0â€, 200
Syl Apps Sr., C - 6’0â€, 195
Teeder Kennedy, C - 5’11â€, 180
Dickie Moore, LW - 5’10â€, 185
Elmer Lach, C - 5’10â€, 170
Frank Boucher, C - 5’9â€, 185
Newsy Lalonde, C - 5’9â€, 170
Stan Mikita, C/RW – 5’9â€, 170
Ted Lindsay, LW – 5’8â€, 165

The above is an EXCELLENT illustration of what I was referring to when I talked about CULTURE SHOCK.......now notice the HUGE difference in size when your forwards have to go up against my defencemen..................

ok Now compare your defencemen to my forwards:

Hamilton Tigers Forwards: F: 5’11.6â€, 189.2 (5’11.5â€, 188.9) r-l 5-8
N Jersy Devils Defencemen: D: 6’0.3â€, 190.8 (6’0.3â€, 190) r-l 3-4

You have the edge here but only SLIGHTLY....we can live with that difference, less than an inch and less than a pound differential........nothing really to lose any sleep over and nothing like the HUGE differential between your forwards and my defencemen as the above list demonstrates here to everybody.............
=========================================================

Oh well.........I like Bobby Orr you have the best player in the draft..........I also mentioned that I don't like your two backup Goalies Broda and Hainsworth who both played without the mask and your response was:

What makes you think Hainsworth is playing without a mask but your goalie isn't?

My response to you then was:

All my goalies were masks bro.....Dryden, Dzurilla and Hextall.....that's why.....PLUS the players back then didn't use the slap-shot like the players do today..........what happens if my PAVEL BURE for example rips a Big Slapper on Hainsworth's head?........then what?.........

Now for whatever reason you're asuming that any games involving both of our two teams would mean that any and all of my netminders would have to play without the Goalie mask and why is that?....all my guys were masks and furthermore there were no rules back then stopping the goalies from wearing the Goalie masks.

Good luck in the next draft.

 

[monkey_00*]

OK BM67...........Now it's your turn...........and THIS time I'm using ALL the players

BM67 - NJ Devils............monkey_00 - Hamilton Tigers

Lester Patrick...Coach....Viktor Tikhonov

Stan Mikita...................Joe Sakic

Ted Lindsay..................Jerome Iginla

Charlie Conacher...........Pavel Bure

Dit Clapper...................Alexander Yakushev

Dickie Moore.................Glenn Anderson

Newsy Lalonde..............Denis Savard

Syl Apps Sr..................Dave Keon

Teeder Kennedy............Tim Kerr

Peter Bondra................John Tonelli

Elmer Lach...................Henri Richard

Frank Boucher...............Butch Goring

Woody Dumart..............Bob Gainey

John MacLean...............Dino Ciccarelli

Bobby Orr.....................Zdeno Chara

Tim Horton....................Larry Robinson

Mark Howe...................Vladimir Lutchenko

Earl Seibert...................Doug Wilson

Lester Patrick................Ron Greschner

Emile "Butch" Bouchard....Marty McSorley

Doug Mohns..................Steve Smith

Dominik Hasek...............Ken Dryden

Turk Broda...................Vladimir Dzurilla

George Hainsworth.........Ron Hextall

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

OK BM67...........Now it's your turn...........and THIS time I'm using ALL the players

BM67 - NJ Devils............monkey_00 - Hamilton Tigers

Lester Patrick ...Coach....Viktor Tikhonov

Stan Mikita...................Joe Sakic
While this isn't an insult by any means to Joe Sakic who is a great offensive player in his own right at the same time Mikita offers a great deal more in terms of toughness, defensive presence, and from what I have been able to read skill might also be an advantage for Mikita. Just because he played in the original six doesn't mean that he is a worse player, but rather the fact that he was an elite player in a much more condenced and tougher league does have a further advantage for Mikita.


Ted Lindsay..................Jerome Iginla
Terrible Ted Lindsay, tough, tallented, dirty, and well he did more in his career than Iginla has done in his to date. he put up with more abuse. Iginla is a great player, and in a few years he might be equal or better, but at the current time Linsday wins this one in a walk.

Charlie Conacher...........Pavel Bure
Bure really disappeared in the mid to late 90s, had a horrible attitude (especially when it came to money), and really was fragile throughout his career. Conacher on the other hand excelled throughout his career, with the Kid line being the dominate line of a decade. More consistant than Bure and well from everything I have read he has two times the heart that Bure had.... differnet type players through Conacher bowled players over, while Bure skated through them. Conacher could also fight, while not often starting the fights you could be guarenteed he would end the fights.


Dit Clapper...................Alexander Yakushev
No even close here, you have Dit who was able to play two positions, was a great athlete, could hit better than most players, great sportsman, and well he was tough as hell, just ask Clarence Campbell. Consistantly a great player, and was able to be an all star at forward or on defense, something not many players can do. Durable also with the 20 years in the league, first to do that.


Dickie Moore.................Glenn Anderson
There really is a comparison between one of the hardest working players of all time that also had skill, and Glenn Anderson, who at the end of the day would be lucky to make the hall, who topped the 100 points something like 2 or 3 times in his career in the high flying 80s... in fact I think he only cracked the top 10 point gettings what one time? Dickie Moore what topped the league in scoring two times?

Newsy Lalonde.............Denis Savard

Don't know enough about Lalonde to make an accurate judgement.

Syl Apps Sr..................Dave Keon
Apps was the best captain the leafs ever, a good point producer, who left the league in his prime two times, the first time to volunteer for the war effort, and the second time he left because he wanted to spend time with his family. He played more than one sport, and was a great skater, and a great stickhandler. The editors of the hockey news also agree that Apps is better after they ranked him much higher in the 100 best of all time. If you want to talk about clutch players by the way Apps is the reason that the Leafs were able to come back from a deficit of three games in the finals... not saying Keon wasn't a great player, but he wasn't as good as Apps.


Teeder Kennedy............Tim Kerr
This one really isn't close, both were pretty poor skaters, but Kennedy offered much more in terms of intangable assets towards his team, and was likely one of the top 3 captains in Leafs history, and arguably hockey history. Quite possibly the best faceoff man in hockey history. This quote really says it all, "Kennedy is the greatest competitor in hockey" - Conn Smythe. Kerr might have had some more pure skill, but Kennedy more than made up for that with the tenacity and the drive.

Peter Bondra................John Tonelli

Elmer Lach...................Henri Richard



Frank Boucher...............Butch Goring

Woody Dumart..............Bob Gainey

John MacLean...............Dino Ciccarelli

Bobby Orr.....................Zdeno Chara

Tim Horton....................Larry Robinson

Mark Howe...................Vladimir Lutchenko

Earl Seibert...................Doug Wilson

Lester Patrick................Ron Greschner

Don't know a great deal about Patrick.


Emile "Butch" Bouchard....Marty McSorley

Doug Mohns..................Steve Smith

Dominik Hasek...............Ken Dryden

Turk Broda...................Vladimir Dzurilla

George Hainsworth.........Ron Hextall

I will add more explanations later, but the teams are not remotely comparable.

 

[monkey_00*]

..............heh heh heh...........ok thanks Maxwell.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

Yeah I guess any view that doesn't coincide with your view on the teams must be laughable right?

 

[monkey_00*]

Yeah I guess any view that doesn't coincide with your view on the teams must be laughable right?

Nope.........not necessarily.......I only laugh at guys like you who make a silly attempt to rank our teams and then ranks mine low simply because I drafted Tikhonov to be my coach and Yakushev, Bure and Lutchenko to play on my hockey club.....let's face it...your club is made up of mostly Russians and these are guys that you would have wanted to play for your hockey club......your drafting methods were to predictable........oh well........

I didn't really expect for you to rank my team high anyways....not after I took 4 guys for my club that you would have wanted playing on yours........I'm not going to loose any sleep over your opinions on the matter.........it's only a make-beLEAF draft...........well...I've said all I had to say on the matter.........good luck in the next draft.

good night buddy.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

Stop being such a dumbass, I never even thought of that when I rated your team. I rated it so damn low because you have some bad players for the draft such as Smith, McSorley, and well most of your third line. Ciccerelli is arguably the worst player selected, and your entire fourth line isn't that far behind. Your goaltenders are average at best and well lets face it Hextall and Dzurilla are nothing to write home about. you took players from the 80s on, and you ignored great players who had played before likely because you didn't know anything about them.

You rated low because you ignored 60 years of history instead focusing on 15-20 years. While I am sorry if you disagree,but most every person that follows hockey has some appreciation for the greats of yesteryear, you sir do not seem to have any appreciation. There is a reason that few of your players made the THN list a few years ago, and it isn't because they are underappreciated, it is because they are not very good.

Frankly I am insulted that you would think that I would rate a fairly weak club low because of a coach, a third line player, and a defenseman who would likely be on my third pairing. it was rated low for the reasons that BM67 listed, it just isn't a good team. What is your reasoning for him not liking your team? Did you steal a couple players away from him to? Did you somehow control him in some manner. Tell me how your team is great, other than saying, well those players played without masks so they suck.

news flash, if this league did exist all the goaltenders would have masks or would not have masks. We are rating the goaltenders not the equoment they have, and your bringing up that point just shows how desprite you are in order to salvage your team from the basement of the draft.

Good night.

 

[monkey_00*]

Stop being such a dumbass, I never even thought of that when I rated your team. I rated it so damn low because you have some bad players for the draft such as Smith, McSorley, and well most of your third line. Ciccerelli is arguably the worst player selected, and your entire fourth line isn't that far behind. Your goaltenders are average at best and well lets face it Hextall and Dzurilla are nothing to write home about. you took players from the 80s on, and you ignored great players who had played before likely because you didn't know anything about them.

You rated low because you ignored 60 years of history instead focusing on 15-20 years. While I am sorry if you disagree,but most every person that follows hockey has some appreciation for the greats of yesteryear, you sir do not seem to have any appreciation. There is a reason that few of your players made the THN list a few years ago, and it isn't because they are underappreciated, it is because they are not very good.

Benton Fraser......

Hmmmmmm........Are you angry with me?......heh heh heh........I have Tikhonov and you don't........Na Na Na Na Na Na

"Dumbass?"...........Oh I see....you've decided to resort to name-calling eh?.........how very intelligent of you.........you drafted very well I have to admit.......you just can't take hearing from me that I think you did a lousy job with your rankings that's all.........but hey It's only a matter of opinion.....you say yes....and I say no...you say black...and I say white.....oh well......

good night.

 

[monkey_00*]

.................ok kids.........It's off to Draft #3.......ding ding ding ding.

 

[BM67]

(1) Joe Sakic is FIRST alltime in playoff overtime Goals

Actually Rocket is still number one.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Actually Rocket is still number one.

Sakic and Rocket are tied for first, with Roenick one back.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

No I am not upset that you don't like my rankings, I am upset that you would question my reasoning for my rankings. I thought I did a good job, and yet you say I didn't because of spite and other flaws of my character which don't exist in the situation. Oh well talking to a wall very rarely offers any solid conversation anyways////

 

[monkey_00*]

No I am not upset that you don't like my rankings, I am upset that you would question my reasoning for my rankings. I thought I did a good job, and yet you say I didn't because of spite and other flaws of my character which don't exist in the situation. Oh well talking to a wall very rarely offers any solid conversation anyways////

..................whatever Dumbass.

 

[BM67]

I haven't been doing much on this lately but here's how much I have done. So enjoy monkey.

A few of these are really close, and might be worthy of ties. 6 of these guys I would have thought about if they had lasted a round or two longer. I didn't have any intention of selecting Tikhonov, Bure, Kerr or Savard.

BM67 - NJ Devils............monkey_00 - Hamilton Tigers

Lester Patrick...Coach....Viktor Tikhonov

Both are great coaches. Both are solid tacticians and innovators. Both demand perfection from their players. Patrick was more innovative, but Tikhonov had more of a base of past innovations to build on, so hard to give an edge on that. Both had their teams playing similar styles, so not much to choose from there. In the end it comes down to how the players react to the coach. Hamilton has more players that one would wonder if they would react well under a tyrant. In the end I’d think Patrick is a little more flexible and has a roster better suited to his coaching philosophy and style. Edge Patrick.

Stan Mikita...................Joe Sakic

Neither is a large body, and while Mikita is more aggressive, his slight build doesn’t give him much of an edge. Sakic has a better track record for clutch play, but Mikita’s being second in career playoff scoring, when he retired, without playing on a dynasty, is also a good indication of a playoff performer. Sakic is more than solid defensively and on faceoffs, but Mikita is somewhat better in both areas. Sakic has a better wrist shot, while Mikita is more known for his Slap shot. Sakic is a slightly better skater, but Mikita had a knack for exploiting holes in a defense, which makes up for Sakics smoothness. Overall offensively I’d give the edge to Mikita. Mikita’s edge in offense, defense and aggression, beats Sakic’s clutch play.

Ted Lindsay..................Jerome Iginla

Jerome Iginla is pretty much the complete package. He hits, fights, scores, plays decent defense and is a leader for his team. The same can be said of Ted Lindsay. Lindsay is a cross between Iginla, Theo Fleury and the Energizer Bunny, or maybe Jason of Halloween fame. He was a perpetual motion machine, that didn’t let his size deter him from taking on all comers. How important was Ted to the Red Wings of the 50’s? With Lindsay they finished 1st overall 7 years in a row, and 8 out of 9 years. After he was traded to Chicago, over the union attempt, they didn’t finish first again until he came out of retirement in 64-65. If Iginla can put together back to back years of MVP performances, it might move him ahead of Lindsay, but not yet. I might remind you that I selected Lindsay at 51; you tried to select him at 66. You settled for Bure, and went on to grab Iginla at 117. So it would appear that even you would take Lindsay.

Charlie Conacher...........Pavel Bure

Bure certainly has more flash. He’s the much better skater, and in open ice is the much better player. Bure flying down the ice is better. Conacher is better driving the net, and in close quarters around the net. Conacher is better going into the corners to get the puck. Neither is a diligent backchecker, but at least Conacher isn’t a world-class cherry picker. Conacher went on to coach in Chicago, and there he stressed attention to defense, so I’m of the opinion that he would fit better with Patrick’s coaching than Bure would with Tikhonov’s. I’d give a slight advantage to Conacher. I’d really like to see what Charlie could do with a slapshot, since he put a puck through the boards at MLG without one.

Dit Clapper...................Alexander Yakushev

Dit Clapper is one of the best all-around players in NHL history. He and the Big Yak are comparable in size, and while both were clean players, Dit was much more willing to throw the body around. Dit was an all-star at both right wing and defense. He was a long serving captain for the Bruins, as well as stretch player/coach, and is the only player to win 3 Cups with the team. He was the first player to play 20 years in the NHL, and returned to all-star form after severing a tendon in his leg, an injury that required 100 stitches inside and another 100 outside the wound, when it was thought that he would never walk again.

Dickie Moore.................Glenn Anderson

A scouting report of Anderson reads much like one on Moore. Anderson was the better skater, but both were relentless and fearless going after the puck. Both would ignore the punishment their bodies took, and keep on grinding. Yet Anderson had a nonchalance that would lead to lapses in concentration. Moore on the other hand was a consummate pro. Despite playing on shaky pins, among many other injuries, for most of his career, he won two scoring titles, the first of which he won while wearing a cast on his wrist for 3 months. He set the single season scoring record with 96 points in 1958-59. He twice led all playoff scorers, and after coming out of retirement missed out on a third by just one point. Moore’s ‘68 playoff performance is what Scotty Bowman thought of while watching Yzerman playing on one knee in the 2002 playoffs.

Newsy Lalonde..............Denis Savard

As exciting as Savard was, he couldn’t check his own hat, and if this caused a feud with Keenan, I don’t see it sitting well with Tikhonov. Lalonde might not have been quite as slick as Savard, but he didn’t take a back seat in getting the crowd excited. He was the complete package: he could skate, shoot, stick handle, and pass expertly. He also was a skilled fighter with a volcanic temper that saw fans come out in droves to watch his running feuds with many of the day’s bad boys. Lalonde also served as captain and player/coach for several years. His 17 goals in 10 playoff games stood as the record for 57 years. He had a 9 goal game, and an 8 goal game, in the NHA, and had a 6 goal game in the NHL. He won 6 scoring titles in 5 leagues. He scored over a goal a game in 16 seasons. He was the first player to lead the NHL in goals and assists in the same season.

Syl Apps Sr..................Dave Keon

These guys are pretty similar in that they are both clean, smooth skating, two-way players. Keon is probably better defensively, and Apps offensively, but neither is a slouch in either department, although Keon was better at creating chances than burying them. Apps is the more physical of the two and the better leader, so I’d give him the nod.

Teeder Kennedy............Tim Kerr

Peter Bondra................ John Tonelli

 

[monkey_00*]

Thanks but I wouldn't expect for it to be any other way from you.....like I said I respect those players from days gone by I just don't think that they would be able to compete against the best from today except for maybe a handful of players like Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr and Maurice Richard.......other than that I really have a hard time believing that most of the others would do just as well........there are some variables that one has to also consider when you compare the players of the past with the players from today like for starters the players today train all year round which the players in the past (for the most part) didn't do......the NHLers from the past use to use the NHL training camps as their primary tool for getting into game shape whereas the players from today train all-year-round PLUS they also have better training facilities today too........

The game is also alot faster today.......the players on average are bigger and stronger.....especially on draft day when you see guys like Pat Quinn and Larry Robinson who both use to be one of the taller players in their day and the kids they
draft just TOWER over them.....pound-for-pound I just don't think that the players from the past could withstand the physical play from the modern day player......

The other point (and this especially is in regards to your hockey club) is that 2 of your three goalies (Turk Broda and Georges Hainsworth) played without the goalie mask......and alot of the players from the past didn't use slapshots either.......if my teams is skating down the ice like Pavel Bure and Joe Sakic for example and they wind up with one of their slappers how would Broda and Hainsworth react in their Nets?.......then that's when you asked me what would make me think that my goalies (Dryden, Hextall and Dzurilla) would play without a mask?.....that's when I responded with "because my goalies played with one PLUS there were no rules back then in the NHL disallowing the goalies from wearing the mask"....so this would mean that my goalies would still be able to play with their mask.....I still find it hard to believe that you would actually think that my goalies would have to play without one......I wonder why you would think that........

Also in defence of my hockey club you said that I didn't have the top 3 of anything......that's when I responded with I had 7 Conn Smythe trophy winners on my hockey club which is probably tops in our League...top 3 for sure....I also had 2 of the best playoff overtime goal scorers in Sakic and Anderson......I also had the NHL record holder for most powerplay goals in a single season; TIM KERR Plus with him he also had 4-consecutive 50+ goal seasons which not too many others in the history of the game can claim.......I also have Henri Richard who owns 11-Stanley Cup rings; that too is an NHL record.........

The other area that we looked at was the comparison of our two hockey clubs..........your arguement was that my forwards were of similar size to yours:

Average Sizes
Tigers: F: 5'11.4", 185.7
Devils: F: 5'10.9", 186.3

You have the edge here but only SLIGHTLY....we can live with that difference, less than an inch and less than a pound differential........nothing really to lose any sleep over and nothing like the HUGE differential between your forwards and my defencemen:

Zdeno Chara, D – 6’9â€, 255
Larry Robinson, D – 6’4â€, 225
Steve Smith, D – 6’4â€, 215
Ron Greschner, D – 6’2â€, 205
Dit Clapper, D/RW - 6’2â€, 195
Marty McSorley, D – 6’1â€, 235 r
Vladimir Lutchenko, D – 6’1â€, 205
Peter Bondra, RW - 6’1â€, 205
Charlie Conacher, RW - 6’1â€, 202
Doug Wilson, D – 6’1â€, 187
Woody Dumart, LW - 6’0â€, 200
John MacLean, RW - 6’0â€, 200
Syl Apps Sr., C - 6’0â€, 195
Teeder Kennedy, C - 5’11â€, 180
Dickie Moore, LW - 5’10â€, 185
Elmer Lach, C - 5’10â€, 170
Frank Boucher, C - 5’9â€, 185
Newsy Lalonde, C - 5’9â€, 170
Stan Mikita, C/RW – 5’9â€, 170
Ted Lindsay, LW – 5’8â€, 165

ok Now compare your defencemen to my forwards:

Hamilton Tigers Forwards: F: 5’11.6â€, 189.2 (5’11.5â€, 188.9) r-l 5-8
N Jersy Devils Defencemen: D: 6’0.3â€, 190.8 (6’0.3â€, 190) r-l 3-4

I honestly feel that the size of the players would greatly come into play if a game were possible between our two hockey clubs.........I also think my hockey club is alot better than what some of you think................I also built my team around great playoff performers....not only the 7 Conn Smythe trophy winners of Dryden, Robinson, Gainey, Sakic, Keon, Goring and Hextall but as well guys like John Tonelli and Glenn Anderson.......and then I complimented surrounded them with guys like Denis Savard and Russians Bure, Yakushev and Lutchenko..........there isn't a more gruelling Hockey tournament than the Stanley Cup playoffs and I feel that my roster of players are better equipped physically and MENTALLY to handle the rigours of an NHL Stanley Cup playoff marathon than your team is.........I also think you guys are drastically under-estimating Viktor Tikhonov's coaching abilities...............

I'm concentrating on the other draft now.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

I question whether you know anything about Tikhonov and his coaching or whether you are looking at the statistics/wins and making a judgement based on that. He stressed a team game, and that included defense and complying to a system, and almost none of your forwards fit the mold as to what his players have to be.

And one has to make the assumption that all players are playing with the same equipment or else you are in a situation where it is the equipment that is being judged or rated and not the player. I draft players like Sawchuk, not the Hockey Company and Koho....

When it comes to older players you mention that handful, but then you must know that those handful of players didn't dominate the game anymore than some of the elite players from today. Why do those players get treated better and well then the players who were almost their equals (such as Clapper) get treated like garbage because they played in the 30s.... Obviously Richard and Howe were better than those players, but you must recognize that Clapper and many of the players BM selected really were almost at their levels.... why are some rated a great deal higher than others when they weren't much differ?

he gave your defense credit for being tall, and big by the way.... it is just the rest of your team doesn't stack up, in my opinion, and apparently in BM67s opinion either.