All-X2 Draft Sign Up Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Frightened Inmate #2

Registered User
Jun 26, 2003
4,385
1
Calgary
Visit site
You know what I am done with this it appears we are both stuck in our positions where I feel greats would be great no matter of the generation, and you feel as though only the players of today and a few others should ever been considered great.... oh well..

Do change your font though it really is irritating.
 

monkey_00*

Guest
OK...........I Capiche...........

Ya I know that one was the biggest surprise of all even for me........I was reading a hockey book at the local Library where they were talking about the early NHL years and the rules that have been added since then........I first remember them saying "No Forward Passing allowed" which you corrected me on when I said "no Backwards passing"....I knew it was one of those...THEN from this book as well it also stated that the players were not allowed to wind up their hockey sticks to take a shot on Net......this was changed sometime between when this Forward passing rule was passed and the late 1940s when the NHL was experimenting with alot of the rule changes to their game........the players who wanted to take a shot on net back then had to sort of SNAP it with the blade of their stick on the ice...a snapper or a wrist shot was allowed but no shots where the player would first have to wind up with his stick leaving the surface of the ice.......there were alot of rule changes back then like:

1929: The first offside rule is introduced.

1931-32 - Though there is no record of a team attempting to play with two goaltenders on the ice, a rule was instituted which stated that each team was allowed only one goaltender on the ice at one time.

1937: The first rule to deal with icing is introduced.

1949: The center red line first appears on the ice.

I'm still trying to find a location on the Net where they state the date that was set when the NHL finally allowed for their players to take the Slapshots.

Cheers!
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,143
14,445
Monkey... please don't read this as an attack, and I know that you are quite knowledgeable about hockey. But a few things you said aren't correct and I will comment on them.

monkey_00 said:
Ya ok.......so instead of No backwards passing it was no FORWARD passing allowed.......PLUS no Slapshots allowed.......PLUS Goalies playing with no Goalie masks are THREE PRIME EXAMPLES right there for you Sir that the game of hockey in 2005 is not the same Hockey that they played in the Early years of the NHL.[/B][/COLOR][/FONT]]

1) Forward passing was allowed in the NHL as early as 1919 (its second season), in the neutral zone.

Forward passing was changed to its modern definition in December of 1929. Since Conacher and Jackson both started playing in 1930, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make about them.

2) Slapshots were never banned in the NHL, they just weren't common. However many stars from the past had fantastically hard shots.

Here's a quote from 4-time all star Hall of Famer Frank Boucher about Conacher's shot: "The thing I remember most about Charlie was his wrist shot. It was frightening. In later years they talked about Boom Boom Geoffrin's shot and Bobby Hull's shot, but Charlie Conacher's was every bit as good" (source: Hockey Compendiun, pg 66).

Another quote: "Conacher had the hardest shot in hockey, a notorious blast that eluded goaltenders and dented rink boards" (source: http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080...?mem=p196102&type=Player&page=bio&list=#photo).

3) Hainsworth is a bad goalie because the mask hadn't been invented yet? Isn't it fair to assume that if Hainsworth played against modern players, he'd have the opportunity to use modern equipment? If not, we're basically evaluating equipment and not players.


monkey_00 said:
Speaking of Magic you seem to think that those ancient wonders from the 1930s and 1940s will always continue to be the best hockey players that have ever laced up a pair of skates.......ummm Ya......


In 50 years when hockey continues to evolve, will people say "Gretzky and Lemieux played in a weak era with different equipment... they were awful players"? This is a sincere question.

monkey_00 said:
todays NHL also includes the best from the ENTIRE world like Russia, Sweden, Finland and the rest of Europe.......the NHL didn't have foreign-born hockey superstars play in their League........does this mean that they weren't good enough?.....no.....

Non-Canadians simply weren't good enough to play in the NHL the mid 1940's, when the Russians starting playing. For an excellent article, go here: http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/puckerings/puck009.htm. The best players from other countries in the world consistently got destroyed by Canadians who weren't good enough to play in the NHL.

Quote: "The first official Olympic hockey championship was held in Chamonix, France in 1924... Canada played against a field of the USA, Great Britain, Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Switzerland, France and Belgium. Canada won all six of their games en route to the gold medal, scoring an average of 22 goals per game while giving up one-half a goal per game. The team was the Toronto Granites, amateur champions of the country. Make no mistake, this team would have been destroyed by the best NHL clubs of the day. They, in turn, destroyed the best of the competition. Canada’s second-best were undisputed world champions."

I have a question for you. (Again, not an attack. This is a sincere question). If you're convinced that players from before 1967 couldn't compete with modern players, why have you decided to participate in an all-time draft?
 

monkey_00*

Guest
Sorry but where are you getting this no slapshots rule from? Honestly I have never heard of it....

Do you want to know where I get my info from, Ultimate Hockey, Total Hockey, the Hockey News, and well a variety of other sources who apparently know more than you do as they do it for a living.

Benton Fraser..............

Yep that's where I get my hockey history information too...I also go to hockeydb.com, and a very Large hard cover "20th Century Hockey Chronicle"...there are a number of books I have too numerous too mention......


With regards to the forward passing, anyone who knows hockey would tell you that forward passing was first allowed in 1929-30 in order to prop up sagging goal totals. Now you state that Conacher is a lesser hockey player because he played without forward passing, yet you ignore the fact that Conacher played from 1929/30 to 1941... an era that if you knew anything featured forward passing.... so that arguement falls flat on its face.

once again i would like to ask you for a link rquesting you for a rule that was in place in the NHL that stated players were not allowed to take slap shots....

Read post #877 of this thread.......

The no masks is the worst arguement that you have going for you. In this draft when ranking the teams one has to think that all the players are playing with the same equipment, and I decided to make that modern equipment. I am drafting players, not differnt companies that produce hockey equipment.

Well NOW he tells me....sheesh....why didn't you tell me that in the first place....Now I will have to change my strategy for drafting the hockey players.........I didn't know we had to ASSUME that all the players in our draft are playing with the same equipment...ok....that sort of helps me see why you rank the players and the teams the way that you do.......

Prime examples my ass.

Hey buddy......If I stop using "Capiche" then you better stop saying "ass" too ok. :D

You basically said he was a bad player when you said how he would get destroyed by players of today. How is that not saying he is a bad player. How are they no match for the players of today. Your arguements, are well as have been noted by more than one poster weak at best, and you then rely on saying there is a personal bias when the teams were ranked.

Well I didn't mean to use Teeder Kennedy specifically.....I was only using a player from his Era when he would have to go up against my GIANTS on Defence who are the biggest mothers in our Entire League........You remember SPACE JAM with Michael Jordan....Jordan goes up against a team of Giants called the "MONSTARS"....that's the knick-name of my players on defence.....the "MONSTARS".......heh heh heh :D

The travel thing and jetlag arguement is fair I suspose, but I wonder how big of an effect there is with jetlag when you consider that there is a three hour time difference between EST and PST.... now if you are saying that the players of today are tough players because they are able to have this horrible jetlag of a a three hour max differnce then I sort of think you are in for a bad arguement.

..................ok

More games are played today but in more time. It wasn't as though hockey used to start in september and end in june.... less games in less time still means that the players would have the same time differential between games......

They have to go through more rounds of hockey in today's NHL playoffs....It's a more gruelling marathon for those players today compared to the past when all they would have to do was win two rounds of hockey and then they would win the Stanley Cup..........

You did basically say they were horrible players.....

Umm.......no I didn't......again I said the greats from the past were greats in their day but greats from the past are no contest for the greats of today.

- I don't think I know more than everyone, but it appears when you select Marty McSorley and Steve Smith I know more than you.

Well I drafted those two guys cause my forwards were on the small side and I needed to get some toughness up front so I figured if I was going to get myself a team enforcer then at least try and get someone who also played both as a forward and a defenceman like Marty McSorley was.......now if Marty McSorley is good enough to be an enforcer for those Dynasty Edmonton Oiler teams OR any hockey club that has Wayne Gretzky playing on it then he is certainly good enough to play on my hockey club.......

Steve Smith I was extremely happy with considering he was one of my last selections in this draft and most of the better defencemen up to that point had already been selected...I concentrated more in the early part of the draft on selecting premier forwards with Stanley Cup winning experience...it's why I ended up with a total of SEVEN Conn Smythe trophy winners on my team....Steve Smith also won Stanleys in Edmonton and at best he was my #6 defencemen...my top 4 guys on the blueline were going to get 85-90% of the ice time and the remaining 10-to-15% was going to my #5 and #6 guys on the blueline which included Steve Smith........McSorley would sit out most of my games...we all had one extra forward...and one extra defender...and so I used my extra forward to select an enforcer like McSorely...al the great teams had at least ONE on their hockey club.......the Montreal Canadiens had John Ferguson and that helped the rest of the team there in Montreal play better...that's what McSorley would to to my forwards who were on the smallish side.


- I have never seen the players day in and day out. Who am I to make an accurate judgement of a player in comparison to another player? Wait doesn't this contradict your previous point about me thinking that I know more than everyone else where I have admitted that I don't know everything about a certain player who for obvious reasons I have never been able to see day in and day out.

- Your on hockeys future, do you except people who attempt to judge whether Crosby will be the next lemieux to know much about the history of hockey. Honestly I don't see what is wrong with that statement.... especially when you stated the only reason that the old guys selected these players are because they want to remind themselves ofthe glory days or something to that effect

I'm only talking about the players that were selected in our draft........lets not be pulling straws from a hat now ok?

So players of yesteryear were all fat and out of shape that is your arguement. Contrary to popular belief not ever NHL player today is the model of physical fitness..... sorry but there is something to be said for natural tallent, and you appear to think that these players were all untallented, fat, horrible players, an assessment that I do find ignorant because it shows an inability to look at the past with the least bit of appreciation.

I didn't say they were ALL fat HOWEVER since you do bring it up Turk Broda was always critisized for being not only out-of-shape but as well he was a ROLEY POLEY of a GOALIE....that guys was fat yes.......others may not have been "Fat" but they were however not as great-a-shape overall to the modern day players of the NHL.

Cheers!
 

Frightened Inmate #2

Registered User
Jun 26, 2003
4,385
1
Calgary
Visit site
I did tell you about the equipment and your responce was to laugh at me. I will find it for you.

From post #819

Benton Fraser said:
And the mask thing, we must assume that every player is playing with the same equipment so them not wearing a mask would be a moot point in my opinion. Now if you want to make an arguement that the game was differnet in the sense that there were no forward passes and all that stuff, then fine, but to say he sucks because he didn't wear a mask is grasping for straws at the best of times.

monkey_00 said:
:lol: Ya right..........my players are playing with the mask because that is the way they played their hockey when they were in the prime of their hockey careers..........let's not be pulling straws from mid air now and make up the rules as we go along.........what's next?.....you're going to tell us that there's no SLAPSHOTS allowed in our Hockey League..........heh heh heh.........ya ok.
 

monkey_00*

Guest
Benton Fraser said:
You know what I am done with this it appears we are both stuck in our positions where I feel greats would be great no matter of the generation, and you feel as though only the players of today and a few others should ever been considered great.... oh well..

Do change your font though it really is irritating.

OK...........Good night.........I like my Font. :D
 

monkey_00*

Guest
(((I have a question for you. (Again, not an attack. This is a sincere question). If you're convinced that players from before 1967 couldn't compete with modern players, why have you decided to participate in an all-time draft?)))

Hockey Outsider............

Thanks for your kind words.....this is probably where you and most others have the misunderstanding about me.....

(1) I never said that the players from the past weren't great

(2) I said the great players from the past in their day were great and I have all the respect for them in the world....they did however play in a different Era.

(3) The greats from the past ON AVERAGE are not as great as the greats from today EXCEPT for a handful of players like the Bobby Hulls, Bobby Orrs, Gordie Howes and the Richard brothers for example......

(4) Gretzky and Lemieux how would they both compare with the players from the future?....well first of all I don't have a crystal ball in front of me...plenty of things could happen...there could be OTHER GRETZKY's and LEMIEUX's down the road BUT that would only be speculation on both our parts....having said that I have said that the Bobby Orrs and the Bobby Hulls would still be stars in today's NHL so I guess the same would have to be said regarding Gretzky and Lemieux for the future........

(5) I've decided to participate in an alltime draft for a number of reasons like the following:

(a) It's Free

(b) I have waaaaay too much time on my hands

(c) I love Hockey it's my favorite sport

(d) I like the history of sports ESPECIALLY where it pertains to Hockey.

(e) I have great respect of the players from the past

(f) I have the right to select for my team whomever I wish to have on them if they are still available for selection

(g) I have the freedom to debate whether or not I have a great team or not with others in our draft just like I have been doing up until now.

(h) My opinions are not always going to mesh with yours and others and I can live with that why are some of you having a real tough time with that? :)

Cheers!
 

monkey_00*

Guest
Hockey Outsider.........

Charlie Conacher had a hard shot but just as that quote says it was a wrist shot.........Wendel Clark had wrist shot and it was a heavy one too.......I don,t use slappers when I play hockey however I do possess one wicked wrister myself and have been known to hurt a few goalies in the process with it.......

...............I'll see if I can find that book I read where it stated the players weren't allowed to wind up their sticks to take a shot on Net.

Cheers!
 

BM67

Registered User
Mar 5, 2002
4,775
279
In "The System"
Visit site
monkey_00 said:
Hockey Outsider.........

Charlie Conacher had a hard shot but just as that quote says it was a wrist shot.........Wendel Clark had wrist shot and it was a heavy one too.......I don,t use slappers when I play hockey however I do possess one wicked wrister myself and have been known to hurt a few goalies in the process with it.......

...............I'll see if I can find that book I read where it stated the players weren't allowed to wind up their sticks to take a shot on Net.

Cheers!
Has Clark ever put a puck through the boards at MLG? Have you ever driven a goalie into the back of the net with one of your shots? The answer to both for Conacher is yes.

"He had everything. To begin with, his wrist shot was tremendous. He once blasted a puck through the boards at Maple Leaf Gardens. And he could score from anywhere - out near the blue line or in close to the net. I'll still maintain that, mechanically speaking, he was the best hockey player I ever saw." - Frank Selke on Charlie Conacher

Monkey your graph of player talent is reasonably accurate, but it represents the average talent level, not the level of the top players. There are more players that are very good at skating, shooting, etc., but the best players aren't much different. St. Louis won the Hart Trophy last year, does that make him the best player of all time? Your arguements seem to say that you think so. He's the best player in the best league, he must be the best player. Their is no reason that because the league talent level is lower, that the talent of the best players must be lower as well. It varies over the years, but has their been a better player in the league than Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux? They started playing pro @ 60, 40, 30 and 20 years ago. The overall talent level has climbed since they started play, but the top end talent has gone up and down as players came and went, or just got older.
 

monkey_00*

Guest
Has Clark ever put a puck through the boards at MLG? Have you ever driven a goalie into the back of the net with one of your shots? The answer to both for Conacher is yes.

"He had everything. To begin with, his wrist shot was tremendous. He once blasted a puck through the boards at Maple Leaf Gardens. And he could score from anywhere - out near the blue line or in close to the net. I'll still maintain that, mechanically speaking, he was the best hockey player I ever saw." - Frank Selke on Charlie Conacher

I like the wrist shot better anyways because for me personally it's a more accurate shot....the problem with the slapshots is in some cases it might be a harder shot then the wristshot but because it's not as accurate, when some average hockey player winds up with a slapshot instead of getting it right on Net the shot either ends up somewhere in the stands or sometimes even by accident it hits the goalie in the head which is what happened to Jacques Plante when he got hit in the face with a puck...and then soon afterwards more goalies starting to follow suit and wear masks themselves like Plante did and today nobody in the NHL minds the Net without face and head protection.

Monkey your graph of player talent is reasonably accurate, but it represents the average talent level, not the level of the top players. There are more players that are very good at skating, shooting, etc., but the best players aren't much different. St. Louis won the Hart Trophy last year, does that make him the best player of all time? Your arguements seem to say that you think so. He's the best player in the best league, he must be the best player. Their is no reason that because the league talent level is lower, that the talent of the best players must be lower as well. It varies over the years, but has their been a better player in the league than Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux? They started playing pro @ 60, 40, 30 and 20 years ago. The overall talent level has climbed since they started play, but the top end talent has gone up and down as players came and went, or just got older.

Yes that's right it represents the average player...yes I agree with your assessment there with the top end talent going up and down but as well on average the top end talent has also gone up........going back to that line graph it represents the average NHLer over the years not the top end this is why I also have been saying that some of the top end players from the past would still be able to compete in todays NHL and even star in it like the Hulls, Mikitas, Orrs and Richard brothers for example.......Now, Martin St.Louis is not the best player alltime just one of the best from last season...like you said the top end talent has gone up and down this I do agree with you...St.Louis is great but not as great as Lemieux, Gretzky or even Jagr were when these guys were in their primes...we're on the same page here.
 

BM67

Registered User
Mar 5, 2002
4,775
279
In "The System"
Visit site
BM67 said:
Has Clark ever put a puck through the boards at MLG? Have you ever driven a goalie into the back of the net with one of your shots? The answer to both for Conacher is yes.

"He had everything. To begin with, his wrist shot was tremendous. He once blasted a puck through the boards at Maple Leaf Gardens. And he could score from anywhere - out near the blue line or in close to the net. I'll still maintain that, mechanically speaking, he was the best hockey player I ever saw." - Frank Selke on Charlie Conacher

monkey_00 said:
I like the wrist shot better anyways because for me personally it's a more accurate shot....the problem with the slapshots is in some cases it might be a harder shot then the wristshot but because it's not as accurate, when some average hockey player winds up with a slapshot instead of getting it right on Net the shot either ends up somewhere in the stands or sometimes even by accident it hits the goalie in the head which is what happened to Jacques Plante when he got hit in the face with a puck...and then soon afterwards more goalies starting to follow suit and wear masks themselves like Plante did and today nobody in the NHL minds the Net without face and head protection.

Could someone please explain what this has to do with what I said??? :shakehead
 

monkey_00*

Guest
BM67 said:
That Conacher is better than Bure? :)

No that Conacher had a hard shot...I have a hard shot too when I play hockey and I don't even use the Slapshot...I use the wrist shot...I would like to believe that Conacher would also be an Allstar in today's NHL but right now I am having a really tough time believing that...nothing personal on my part I just think he played in a much different era when the NHL had alot of different rules in place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad