GDT: "All we need is just a little..." Devils @ Hurricanes - 3/21

[Boom Boom Apathy]

This may have been right in my row. I was near the ice in 125 and one lady yelled at the top of her lungs for a good five seconds, at what appeared to be nothing.

Yeah..that's what it sounded like. Seemed odd because nothing seemed to be going on.

 

[Roboturner913]

I'm not saying this lockeroom is fragile like Williams commented a few years ago

I would.

In fairness, we should've all seen it a few weeks back, when all those injuries happened at the same time. The team played very much the same as it is now. It was easy to blame it all on the injuries, and truthfully it would be very hard to win under those circumstances anyway. It's the lack of effort that bothers me.

I like Eric Staal as a player. I really do. But I have a major problem with him being a captain because he is by far the worst offender on this team when it comes to lazy, uninspired play.

The big problem here is, there's not much that can be done about it. JR never considered the downside of hitching his wagon to the Staal family. You can't very well trade one guy, strip him of a letter, or whatever without making both of them malcontents.

Nevermind Brind'Amour, this team could desperately use a Scott Walker. Somebody, anybody who refuses to go along with the status quo. I lay a lot of blame on Gleason too, he's supposed to be the hard-nosed guy and a leader and he plays like garbage every other night.

It's pretty bad when the best natural leadership guys on the team might be a 20-year-old Justin Faulk, Chad LaRose and a career backup goalie.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I was fine when Jordan was racking up assists on Skinner goals early in the season. Not sure what happened to that.

For a short while after Skinner returned from his concussion, he couldn't receive a pass for ****. So rather than attempt to pass it to Skinner, Jordan decided he needed to start shooting more. Which in turn left Skinner believing it's every man for himself, and he's started trying to dipsy-do around 4 opposing players. Hence why that line's producing a whole lot of nothing.

As for this game, I honestly didn't have a real problem with it. I mean, obviously, their play after the first 10 minutes was complete ****. But a couple bounces our way in those first 10 minutes and things could have been completely different.

IIRC, Jokinen hit the post on a rebound chance, then shortly after, the Canes poured on the pressure, creating a lot of chances, including one where Skinner's backhand grazed the post and stayed out. Of course, shortly after that, Jordan bounces the puck off the board and into his own net. And the rest of the night is self-explanatory.

It was a great start, until the team faced adversity, at which point they decided it wasn't their night and stopped playing. Which, again, seems to be the problem in a lot of games lately.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

That line looked great against Washington, and against NYR. Wouldn't break it up yet.

J. Staal and Skinner is the future. Skins and Finns will last for 2 more years at the most.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

Bellemore had a pretty decent debut for being dropped into the middle of this ongoing gong show..

...plus/minus 0, 1 SOG, 2 blocks, 3 hits, and worked at/was successful at making life difficult around the crease for the Devils. He looked positionally sound, and if he got burned or did something stupid I missed it. I even liked his offset roughing penalty because it showed he arrived with some confidence and a non-Metrosexual Hockey attitude this team needs more of.

Not bad for his first NHL game, especially when that game is a 4-1 loss and another generally-pathetic, rudderless team showing. It should be noted that he did his job, and did it pretty well.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Bellemore had a pretty decent debut for being dropped into the middle of this ongoing gong show..

...plus/minus 0, 1 SOG, 2 blocks, 3 hits, and worked at/was successful at making life difficult around the crease for the Devils. He looked positionally sound, and if he got burned or did something stupid I missed it.

Not bad for his first NHL game, especially when that game is a 4-1 loss and another generally-pathetic, rudderless team showing. It should be noted that he did his job, and did it pretty well.

His ratio of "guys knocked on *****" to minutes played was definitely the highest I've seen from a defenseman on this team in a long time. I'm sure he'd look worse than Harrison if he was thrust into a top 4 role, but he sure as hell did the job of a #6 as well as you could hope.

 

[dammit100]

Not sure if it was the same situation, but I know 328 is around the same area and I know there was a loud cry of frustration from a fan there around the same time

It wasn't just one fan. Most of us on rows C and D were fed up with the play last night.

 

[tarheelhockey]

His ratio of "guys knocked on *****" to minutes played was definitely the highest I've seen from a defenseman on this team in a long time. I'm sure he'd look worse than Harrison if he was thrust into a top 4 role, but he sure as hell did the job of a #6 as well as you could hope.

I would agree that he played pretty well under the circumstances. It's nice to have someone eager to lay the body, particularly around our net.

The one little bit of cold water I would splash on it is that he and Sanguinetti seemed to get an awful lot of starts in the offensive zone. They were managed pretty closely to keep them both away from serious pressure. And that's actually fine, not a bad idea at all, but it meant that guys like Pitkanen and McBain weren't getting those offensive opportunities when we could've really used them.

All things considered though, he was as solid as you could hope or expect.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I would agree that he played pretty well under the circumstances. It's nice to have someone eager to lay the body, particularly around our net.

The one little bit of cold water I would splash on it is that he and Sanguinetti seemed to get an awful lot of starts in the offensive zone. They were managed pretty closely to keep them both away from serious pressure. And that's actually fine, not a bad idea at all, but it meant that guys like Pitkanen and McBain weren't getting those offensive opportunities when we could've really used them.

All things considered though, he was as solid as you could hope or expect.

Yeah, he was completely sheltered I agree. They sheltered Jordan pretty well but he didn't look nearly as solid in his own zone as Bellemore did. Could just be a symptom of actually seeing someone do so damage with their body though.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I was trying to assess whether Bellemore looked ok because he was really ok? or if he looked ok because it was in comparison to the rest of the team. He does like to throw the body around though, and overall, I don't think he hurt the team (which is what you want in this situation).

Ruutu is going to take some time coming back. Not unexpected though after not playing for so long.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

The one little bit of cold water I would splash on it is that he and Sanguinetti seemed to get an awful lot of starts in the offensive zone. They were managed pretty closely to keep them both away from serious pressure. And that's actually fine, not a bad idea at all, but it meant that guys like Pitkanen and McBain weren't getting those offensive opportunities when we could've really used them.
]

I find it curious that, given this lengthening losing streak and the absolute joke of games our forward corps has strung together in terms of generating offense regardless of who is playing D, you would think they would have magically shaken off their haplessness. You have 25+ million worth of forwards in just 5 players tonight that could barely get a SOG in any situation, let alone find the back of the net.

Cold water...I'm not buying it, not one bit. I'm so sick of hearing about how someone's mere presence...and it has to be their mere presence when there's nothing in their performance that would say otherwise such as Bellemore's in his first game...somehow hurts the team.

 

[DaveG]

I was trying to assess whether Bellemore looked ok because he was really ok? or if he looked ok because it was in comparison to the rest of the team. He does like to throw the body around though, and overall, I don't think he hurt the team (which is what you want in this situation).

Ruutu is going to take some time coming back. Not unexpected though after not playing for so long.

Yeah frankly they need to keep spoonfeeding Ruutu minutes for at least another week or two on the 4th or 3rd lines.

As for Bellemore, he was very unnoticable to me, which quite frankly is a good thing for a dman playing his first NHL game in the role that he plays. When I did notice him I do have to say that he was quite physical and a bit better of a skater then I remembered seeing out of him, well, ever.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Cold water...I'm not buying it, not one bit. I'm so sick of hearing about how someone's mere presence...and it has to be their mere presence when there's nothing in their performance that would say otherwise such as Bellemore's in his first game...somehow hurts the team.

I'm not trying to run Bellemore down. He was solid, like I said. Better than I expected.

But thinking about the distribution of minutes and opportunities, there's really no avoiding the fact that sheltering a particular player hurts his teammates. That just is what it is, an axiomatic fact of the game. Giving an AHL'er, a defensive-defenseman at that, a bunch of offensive zone starts means you are taking them away from the guys who would normally get them, guys whose roles depend on those opportunities.

I don't think it was the wrong decision, or anything like that. It's just a symptom of having so many injuries throughout our talent pool. But it should factor into the way we evaluate a guy whose role theoretically should involve some of the tougher defensive minutes, and it should factor into the way we think about the offensive output of the team as a whole, that's all I was saying.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

I'm not trying to run Bellemore down. He was solid, like I said. Better than I expected.

But thinking about the distribution of minutes and opportunities, there's really no avoiding the fact that sheltering a particular player hurts his teammates. That just is what it is, an axiomatic fact of the game. Giving an AHL'er, a defensive-defenseman at that, a bunch of offensive zone starts means you are taking them away from the guys who would normally get them, guys whose roles depend on those opportunities.

I don't think it was the wrong decision, or anything like that. It's just a symptom of having so many injuries throughout our talent pool. But it should factor into the way we evaluate a guy whose role theoretically should involve some of the tougher defensive minutes, and it should factor into the way we think about the offensive output of the team as a whole, that's all I was saying.

In the last 4 games/12 periods of hockey prior to Bellemore's sheltered minutes you say robbed hypothetical offensive opportunities, vs weak to middlin' teams this team scored 5 ES goals and 0 PP goals regardless of who was moving the puck.

I evaluated his first game by watching him play, positionally and in and around our own crease with a physical presence. I liked what I saw, and don't give a rat's ass about hypothetical offense that doesn't (and will never) exist when most of the forward corp can't generate anything other than giveaways when they do touch the puck.

 

[bleedgreen]

I agree. I hate the stats related arguments and try to base it purely on how he looked. He looked good. To me it showed just more proof in the style of player we lack. He's Allen. He's the guy you may not care that he isn't a graceful skater, he makes life hard in the crease and makes the simple play with the puck. That's it. I think it's worth giving him another game.

 

[tarheelhockey]

In the last 4 games/12 periods of hockey prior to Bellemore's sheltered minutes you say robbed hypothetical offensive opportunities, vs weak to middlin' teams this team scored 5 ES goals and 0 PP goals regardless of who was moving the puck.

I evaluated his first game by watching him play, positionally and in and around our own crease with a physical presence. I liked what I saw, and don't give a rat's ass about hypothetical offense that doesn't (and will never) exist when most of the forward corp can't generate anything other than giveaways when they do touch the puck.

I don't understand where this conversation is going off the rails.

Our offense has struggled, badly. We were without two of our best offensive defensemen and lost a third mid-game. We were giving offensive-zone starts to a defensive-defenseman in his NHL debut. Obviously that is going to exacerbate our struggles. I mean, that's straight-up common sense. There's nothing stat-based about it.

Bellemore was fine. His positioning was fine and his physicality was actually a little refreshing on this team. Nobody has said otherwise, so I'm not sure what the argument is about here.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

I don't understand where this conversation is going off the rails.

Our offense has struggled, badly. We were without two of our best offensive defensemen and lost a third mid-game. We were giving offensive-zone starts to a defensive-defenseman in his NHL debut. Obviously that is going to exacerbate our struggles. I mean, that's straight-up common sense. There's nothing stat-based about it.

Bellemore was fine. His positioning was fine and his physicality was actually a little refreshing on this team. Nobody has said otherwise, so I'm not sure what the argument is about here.

It's going off the rails because you're theorizing some major uptick in offense with minor tweaking when there's nothing to suggest that would be the case. You're arguing that even though he played a solid defensive game, he "exacerbated" a offense problem and therefore "hurt the team" because he didn't...what?...try a little slap-pass to Jokinen who will whiff? Fire one off some shins from the blue line? Carry the puck to Brodeur's crease after clearing it himself and drop it for one of our illustrious forwards to bang in while he screens Marty himself as well?

That last is about what it would take, because here's what isn't theoretical about this offense; Forwards who are afraid of the crease and not there to screen/clean-up/collect garbage..things that are essential to win games unless you believe games are only won pretty. Forwards who can't get a shot on net and make a goalie work for a living let alone actually finish. Forwards who can't establish a forecheck because they aren't usually there to do it even if they had the desire or were built for it. Forwards who can barely cycle the puck or maintain meaningful possession. Forwards who can't find spaces/create seams even when linemates decide to take off the blinders and anticipate/create something that doesn't involve only themselves. Forwards who pass into skates or out of reach instead of on the tape. Forwards who decide to take 2 out of 3 periods off and believe backchecking is a stick-wave. Forwards who take stupid penalties at critical moments and think whining to the refs about it qualifies as playing with passion.

These are a helluva lot bigger problems and "hurt the team" far more in reality...not theoretically by a defensively-reponsible D-man getting some random O-zone starts in his first NHL game (and when our forwards control the puck as little as our group does it means the other team is, rendering the term "sheltered minutes" for any D-man dubious at best anway). The presence of Pitkanen or McBain instead of Bellemore does nothing to fix the above fundamentals, and while Pitkanen's skating and puck control are wonderful things by themselves, moving the puck into the current goat-rope isn't going to translate onto the scoreboard until those who are there to score re-learn how to dominate, maintain some poise and establish a physical presence to screen/tip, and above all by hitting the freaking net. Scoring goals.. It's what they're paid to do, Bellemore or no Bellemore, and there's no excuse for not doing it against weak teams.

So as far as I'm concerned, and with no qualifiers or "cold water", I believe Bellemore had a good performance. Furthermore, he played the type of game I believe helps this team past the stat sheet because by and large it's showing rampant sacless-ness and is being pushed around even by weak teams on home ice.

Here's a stat that relates to offense. Bellmore had 1 more SOG than Semin, and as many SOGs as EStaal, JStaal, and Tlusty.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's going off the rails because you're theorizing some major uptick in offense with minor tweaking when there's nothing to suggest that would be the case.

What? Where did I say anything like that?

You're arguing that even though he played a solid defensive game, he "exacerbated" a offense problem and therefore "hurt the team" because he didn't...what?...try a little slap-pass to Jokinen who will whiff? Fire one off some shins from the blue line? Carry the puck to Brodeur's crease after clearing it himself and drop it for one of our illustrious forwards to bang in while he screens Marty himself as well?

No, I'm not making that argument at all. He simply takes offensive starts away from offensive defensemen. Do you disagree with that?

<rant about the forwards>

These are a helluva lot bigger problems and "hurt the team" far more in reality

Ok, but I never said otherwise.

The presence of Pitkanen or McBain instead of Bellemore does nothing to fix the above fundamentals, and while Pitkanen's skating and puck control are wonderful things by themselves, moving the puck into the current goat-rope isn't going to translate onto the scoreboard until those who are there to score re-learn how to dominate, maintain some poise and establish a physical presence to screen/tip, and above all by hitting the freaking net. Scoring goals.. It's what they're paid to do, Bellemore or no Bellemore, and there's no excuse for not doing it against weak teams.

Still looking for something that conflicts with anything I've said so far...

So as far as I'm concerned, and with no qualifiers or "cold water", I believe Bellemore had a good performance.

Yeah, and that's exactly what I meant when I used words and phrases like "played pretty well", "solid", "better than expected", and "refreshing".

I guess I did forget to use "good", so there's that.

Furthermore, he played the type of game I believe helps this team past the stat sheet because by and large it's showing rampant sacless-ness and is being pushed around even by weak teams on home ice.

Yep, I said that too.



Frankly, it looks to me like you're trying to pick a fight over some perceived slight to a player that is almost entirely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Find another dance partner.

 

[bleedgreen]

Christ we get grumpy when we lose. Win the next two and all these arguments are generally moot.

The world hasn't ended, we're still in the fight. Get past some injuries, pick up a decent dman, get on a roll and we're in. Few teams will be out till the end.

 

[vwg*]

Arguing over Bellemore is a hilarious waste of time considering he'll be buried on the organizational depth chart once the D gets healthy.

I guess this is where people starting arguing that he should be higher on the depth chart based on 1 game where he played sheltered minutes in a 4-1 loss. I'll admit he didn't look out of place most of the night and that he threw a few really nice hits, but he's not anything more than depth defenseman right now. Him and M. Jordan really struggle with their skating at this level, that's one thing I think that has held both back. They'll need to improve there to become NHL regulars.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

Frankly, it looks to me like you're trying to pick a fight over some perceived slight to a player that is almost entirely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Find another dance partner.

Hey, you showed up with your "cold water" and the implication that his presence during offensive zone starts was some sort of anchor and contributing factor to the non-performance of offence..an offence that has been underperforming in a string of losses leading up to this game. You did it based on nothing more than Bellemore's label as a defensive D-man, and haven't pointed out one actual thing he did on the ice during the game to support your notion, let alone that it's axiomatic.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Hey, you showed up with your "cold water" and the implication that his presence during offensive zone starts was some sort of anchor and contributing factor to the non-performance of offence..an offence that has been underperforming in a string of losses leading up to this game. You did it based on nothing more than Bellemore's label as a defensive D-man, and haven't pointed out one actual thing he did on the ice during the game to support your notion, let alone that it's axiomatic.

I think you're the only one who took that "cold water" as anything more than an observation that Bellemore was getting offensive zone starts. No one's blaming Bellemore for anything, in fact Tarheel blatantly stated that he thought Bellemore played fairly well.

These boards are so weird sometimes...

 

[tarheelhockey]

Hey, you showed up with your "cold water" and the implication that his presence during offensive zone starts was some sort of anchor and contributing factor to the non-performance of offence..an offence that has been underperforming in a string of losses leading up to this game. You did it based on nothing more than Bellemore's label as a defensive D-man, and haven't pointed out one actual thing he did on the ice during the game to support your notion, let alone that it's axiomatic.

Are you serious right now? Is this some sort of trolling joke that I'm not getting at all?

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

Are you serious right now? Is this some sort of trolling joke that I'm not getting at all?

Earlier, I stated very clearly that he's now my favorite player, so I'm not gonna sit by and watch someone try to LaRose him. Stay off my man, ****er.

 

[Datsyuk Prospect]

Christ we get grumpy when we lose. Win the next two and all these arguments are generally moot.

The world hasn't ended, we're still in the fight. Get past some injuries, pick up a decent dman, get on a roll and we're in. Few teams will be out till the end.

The Facebook page seems to have a lot more whining and over the top reactions compared to this board, some of them don't even know what they're talking about. I had to explain why picking up Komisarek would be a mistake, people already giving up on this team calling them garbage, saying Pitkanen blows and don't even get me started on the Larose lovers cult.