All things Pegula 1

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Jim Bob

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Fezzy126

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May 10, 2017
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Lots of talk earlier about the Pegulas' having financial trouble. While the they may be experiencing very real issues with cash flow, according to this study their net worth has decreased $54M, about 1%, during the pandemic.

TALE OF TWO CRISES: BILLIONAIRES GAIN AS WORKERS FEEL PANDEMIC PAIN

Sources: All data analyzed by ATF and IPS is from Forbes and available here.
March 18, 2020, data is from the Forbes World’s Billionaires List: The Richest in 2020.
May 19, 2020 data was taken from Forbes real-time estimates of worth that day.


GROWTH IN WEALTH OF U.S. BILLIONAIRES, March 18 to May 19, 2020
NameMarch Net Worth (Millions)May Real Time Worth (Millions)Wealth Growth in 2 Months% Growth in 2 MonthsSourceAgeIndustryGenderCountryHeadquarters State
Terrence Pegula$5,000 $4,946 ($54)-1.10%natural gas69EnergyMUnited StatesFL
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Buffaloed

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Feb 27, 2002
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Lots of talk earlier about the Pegulas' having financial trouble. While the they may be experiencing very real issues with cash flow, according to this study their net worth has decreased $54M, about 1%, during the pandemic.

TALE OF TWO CRISES: BILLIONAIRES GAIN AS WORKERS FEEL PANDEMIC PAIN




GROWTH IN WEALTH OF U.S. BILLIONAIRES, March 18 to May 19, 2020
NameMarch Net Worth (Millions)May Real Time Worth (Millions)Wealth Growth in 2 Months% Growth in 2 MonthsSourceAgeIndustryGenderCountryHeadquarters State
Terrence Pegula$5,000 $4,946 ($54)-1.10%natural gas69EnergyMUnited StatesFL
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
I hope so. As much as I criticize their ownership of the Sabres I don't want to go back to the chaos and uncertainty when the team was in financial distress.
 

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The Pegulas have ushered in the Harold Ballard Era of the Sabres.
 
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HogtownSabresfan

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Jan 13, 2010
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Lots of talk earlier about the Pegulas' having financial trouble. While the they may be experiencing very real issues with cash flow, according to this study their net worth has decreased $54M, about 1%, during the pandemic.

TALE OF TWO CRISES: BILLIONAIRES GAIN AS WORKERS FEEL PANDEMIC PAIN




GROWTH IN WEALTH OF U.S. BILLIONAIRES, March 18 to May 19, 2020
NameMarch Net Worth (Millions)May Real Time Worth (Millions)Wealth Growth in 2 Months% Growth in 2 MonthsSourceAgeIndustryGenderCountryHeadquarters State
Terrence Pegula$5,000 $4,946 ($54)-1.10%natural gas69EnergyMUnited StatesFL
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Based on what? Try and sell his wells today. Is going to have to get a lot more to get even. He's got major cash flow issues, I'm guessing. He doesn't want to sell assets right now because he'll take a bath.
 

buffalowing88

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Aug 11, 2008
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I don't think you have a clue as to how Ballard ran the Leafs if you are making that comparison.

The Pegulas are a disgrace as hockey owners and I just hope it doesn't bleed over to Orchard Park.

I would absolutely compare our hockey operations to those under Ballard at this point. Nonsensical moves that destroy a fanbase.

I know I am the biggest Connolly fanboy but he offered to come here for 1/4 of what Leino was getting in 2011. That's such a shitty move. And then they proceed to offer Ehrehoff a megadeal when, in reality, no one outside of Philly was even considering matching that.

That is how the Pegulas began their rebuild. By casting off one of the top 10 centers for the organization willing to take a discount for a guy who had shown up only in the playoffs and then for a long contract with a guy who was never that highly regarded by his own teams.

The ensuing years created too many stories to count.They need a president or someone in charge over there. It's getting ridiculous.
 
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TehDoak

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The Pegulas are a disgrace as hockey owners and I just hope it doesn't bleed over to Orchard Park.

I would absolutely compare our hockey operations to those under Ballard at this point. Nonsensical moves that destroy a fanbase.

I know I am the biggest Connolly fanboy but he offered to come here for 1/4 of what Leino was getting in 2011. That's such a shitty move. And then they proceed to offer Ehrehoff a megadeal when, in reality, no one outside of Philly was even considering matching that.

That is how the Pegulas began their rebuild. By casting off one of the top 10 centers for the organization willing to take a discount for a guy who had shown up only in the playoffs and then for a long contract with a guy who was never that highly regarded by his own teams.

The ensuing years created too many stories to count.They need a president or someone in charge over there. It's getting ridiculous.

I think the Pegula's deserve a lot of blame for where we are at, but their initial gaffes in the UFA market aren't as big of a deal as their long term issues running the team.
 

SackTastic

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Mar 25, 2011
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I think the Pegula's deserve a lot of blame for where we are at, but their initial gaffes in the UFA market aren't as big of a deal as their long term issues running the team.

Mostly agree.

Although I think those mistakes are magnified in light of their current cash flow crunch. Consider that this season they spent almost $3M in cash on the Erhoff, Leino, and Hodgson buyouts. Only Hodgson counts against the cap , but $3M could have kept a lot of workers employed through the pandemic shutdowns, etc. (Not so say they would have, but Im sure you get my drift.)
 

HogtownSabresfan

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Jan 13, 2010
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Mostly agree.

Although I think those mistakes are magnified in light of their current cash flow crunch.

You think they have cash flow issues now? Will be massive in coming months. I cancelled my season tickets (put on hold) as did many others I know.

The ask shows Pegulas have no clue about market. Okay, take the money in our accounts and apply to next year. No brainer. People won't miss money they already spent.

But they want more payments starting in July for a season that might not even happen or likely won't start until 2021. Plus, they still have the nerve to throw a 5% increase on top of the tire fire that is the Sabres. And what do we get? Wow, $100 gift certificate in the store.

I can tell you holding onto to my $5 K in season ticket money is worth that easily. That $5 K can be used to pay down my line of credit over that period and even at 3% interest, that's a better deal than something from the overpriced Sabres store I don't need.

I believe the season ticket base was maybe 14,000 last year because paid attendance was 15,000 for many games.

My call is the Sabres will be super lucky to get even 10,000 STHers to stay. I think it's more like 7,000 to 8,000. You will see 12,000 attendance on some next and maybe a couple under 10 K, if team is bad.

You factor in the Canadian border being closed -- and trust me you don't want to make a commitment when you don't know rules for isolation after visiting US or whether Trump will demand visas -- and then the overall Buffalo economy and buying season's really doesn't look good for 20% of your base. Overall, few STHers go to 41 games and trying to sell the other games will be an impossible task.

One caveat would be winning the lottery. Obviously, that's a game-changer for selling tickets. But the rumour is even winning will not get Sabres to move up more than four spots so no player from this year's draft is likely to be on the team.

Pegulas don't think anything out. The demand for season ticket money in the middle of pandemic shows this again.

Their cash flow problems could get a lot worse.
 

SackTastic

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Mar 25, 2011
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I'm with you. I made the decision to cancel mine towards the end of 2018-2019. They made a ham handed attempt to get me to reconsider, but it was very cursory.

I agree the STH bases is likely to drop significantly. You and I have disagreed on the percentage of the base that is from Canada, but we are in agreement that it is significant. If I was Canadian I wouldn't spend a dime on entertainment in the US right now for exactly the reasons you describe. I'm with you that sub-10K is absolutely going to be the reality.

The increase, I don't hold against them. (Even though I'm not paying it.) I think they made a mistake with some years of keeping increases too low, but increases are basically a requirement in every market because of the finances of the sport. They are being smarter about where the increases are to try and not price out most fans, although that certainly doesn't feel good to anyone based on the product on the ice.

Since they have been pro sports owners, they have not experienced a STH fan revolt like they are now. There was a deep waiting list for Sabres seasons until about 3 years ago, and even after that they were still holding close to 15k. The Bills had good STH bases even then they sucked bad, it went up when Pegula bought them, and has only grown more with some success.

They are being very myopic if they are asking for July payments. That's a terrible mistake. We don't know what the world is going to look like in mid June, and hockey tickets are going to be the furthest thing on the minds of people who were thrashed economically by all this. Hell, you and I sound like we are in the fortunate group that aren't, and look where we are on all this.

Going to be a long few years on their yachts.
 

5 Minute Major

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Dec 4, 2010
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The Pegulas are a disgrace as hockey owners and I just hope it doesn't bleed over to Orchard Park.

I would absolutely compare our hockey operations to those under Ballard at this point. Nonsensical moves that destroy a fanbase.

I know I am the biggest Connolly fanboy but he offered to come here for 1/4 of what Leino was getting in 2011. That's such a shitty move. And then they proceed to offer Ehrehoff a megadeal when, in reality, no one outside of Philly was even considering matching that.

That is how the Pegulas began their rebuild. By casting off one of the top 10 centers for the organization willing to take a discount for a guy who had shown up only in the playoffs and then for a long contract with a guy who was never that highly regarded by his own teams.

The ensuing years created too many stories to count.They need a president or someone in charge over there. It's getting ridiculous.

Yeah, I pretty much disagree. On everything.

No doubt, success in the NHL is foreign to the Pegula's but anyone that even attempts go say it's because they haven't tried their asses off and spent money doesn't have a clue.

Bash their record but to compare their ownership to Howard Ballard's tenure up north is flat out stupid.
 

sabremike

Friend To All Giraffes And Lindy Ruff
Aug 30, 2010
22,881
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Brewster, NY
Yeah, I pretty much disagree. On everything.

No doubt, success in the NHL is foreign to the Pegula's but anyone that even attempts go say it's because they haven't tried their asses off and spent money doesn't have a clue.

Bash their record but to compare their ownership to Howard Ballard's tenure up north is flat out stupid.
Guess somebody needs to get an Athletic subscription to check out a certain article...
 

flashsabre

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Apr 5, 2003
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Having lived through the Ballard era, no they are not the same. Ballard was cheap and interfered in everything. The Leafs downfall of the 70s success began when he traded away Lanny McDonald to spite captain Daryl Sittler who was in a feud with. He constantly meddled and wouldn’t spend the money to make moves that were necessary to improve.

This is not the Pegulas. They will spend the money. Their biggest downfall is that they can’t identify Front Office talent and leadership on the hockey side to properly run the ship. Looks how much better the Bills look. Same owners, difference is they got Beane who has been great so far at leading and shaping that team.
 

SackTastic

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Mar 25, 2011
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A friend who works in one of the Pegula's hospitality businesses was informed today their furlough has been extended by 2 months.
 

Buffaloed

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He has been in the oil and gas industry for 30+ years. I'm sure he understands the volatile nature of that industry, and that you can succeed if you play the long game. Short term he got burned a bit on the price drop, but longer term that will be ok. He's actually in a good position there that he can ramp up production as pricing makes sense to do so, and not eat too much more.

He might not be able to last that long. The price averaged $2.40/MMBtu in June 2019 when he stopped drilling because it was no longer profitable. He probably weathered a few months at higher prices hoping they'd rebound because it costs a lot to shut down and restart. In the longer term, the EIA expects prices to remain below $4.00/MMBtu out to 2050 “because of an abundance of lower cost resources, primarily in tight oil plays in the Permian Basin. These lower cost resources allow higher production levels at lower prices during the projection period,” the agency says in its annual energy outlook.
EIA expects lower natural gas prices in 2020 as production outpaces demand - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
Natural gas price forecast 2020 and beyond: to trade, or not to trade?
 

Ace

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Oct 29, 2015
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Also known as every single full season played under Pegula ownership.

The things they know that fans don’t aren't the good things.
 

Zach716

Pucks in deep
Nov 24, 2018
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Genuinely tired of this sh*t if something BIG doesn't happen before Dahlin's ELC is up I'm close to just avoiding this entire sport for the next couple years tbh. I am so sick of Kim Pegula.
 

flashsabre

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The only thing left is for Season ticket holders to not re up their tickets in droves.

It is the only thing that will wake the Pegulas up at this point. Sabres games with 6000 people in the stands will be something they can’t arrogantly shrug off.
 

TehDoak

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Feb 28, 2002
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Mostly agree.

Although I think those mistakes are magnified in light of their current cash flow crunch. Consider that this season they spent almost $3M in cash on the Erhoff, Leino, and Hodgson buyouts. Only Hodgson counts against the cap , but $3M could have kept a lot of workers employed through the pandemic shutdowns, etc. (Not so say they would have, but Im sure you get my drift.)

I almost 100% guarantee you it would not have mattered.

It's been a bit of a troubling turn the last 6 months with the Pegula's.

On paper, they've spent probably nearly 1.7B on both the Sabres and the Bills in the last ~9 years...which is a lot. 1.4B on the bills, 165M on the Sabres, and probably 20-30M just in operating losses on the Sabres since 2011. Maybe a little more. But that being said....he is worth 5B+. If he sat the remainder of his cash in an index fund after buying the Bills in 2014, he'd be worth 6-7B now.

They've also burned through cash with other projects, like the Harbor Center, PSE in general, and run several smaller teams, including the Amerks, Bandits, Nighthawks, and own a Hotel in downtown Buffalo.

The only "profitable" piece of that, at this moment, is the Bills.

I certainly understand that the Pegula's want PSE on a whole to be, at minimal, revenue neutral.

That being said, I think what we are starting to see is "buyers remorse", especially with the Sabres. I think Terry has seen 1 playoff series since buying the team? I don't think it's really enjoyable for him and probably frustrating for him as a business person to see so many of the properties in the red year after year. This is the biggest reason why we need to get a team president who is on top of things and can manage the owner and manage the team at the same time.

So, currently, GMJB reports directly to Terry and Kim. And frankly, that's problematic. We've heard from both TM and now JB that they talk to Terry daily.

Let's put this in perspective for a second. You are brought on to manage a restaurant. The owner LOVES this restaurant, so much he bought it, but he has no restaurant experience. At all. He eats at restaurants sure, but he has no food service experience. Your owner wants you to run the best restaurant in the world....but every day, he wants to talk to you about the restaurant. What he thinks about the menu, what'd sales look like yesterday, what color should we make the table cloths, etc. But, running a restaurant is hard. And it's much harder when you have to take an hour out of your day to talk to the owner, and run any big decisions by him before you do them. That is what I imagine all of our GMs have had to do under Terry. Heck, if i were a fan and I bought the team, I'd want to be a part of the conversation and direction of the team, heck I own it. But, I think a team president that has Terry's ear and can give a GM direction and room to operate would make a huge difference. Just huge.
 
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