All things Pegula 1

[MetalJaws]

The issue isn't the Pegula's spending (they've likely lost more money on the team in year to year losses than they spent buying the team at this point)

The issue isn't the Pegula's firing people, I'd say most fans agreed with every firing they have done.

The issue is, across 10 years, 4 GMs, 6 coaches, entire roster turnover multiple times....the one constant in all this losing is the Pegulas.

If a team loses 10 games in a row, you blame the players.

If a team loses 2 seasons in a row, you blame the coaches.

If a team loses 4 seasons in a row, you blame the GM.

If the team loses 10 seasons in a row across several players, coaches, and GMs

And the owner continues to operate and hire the same type of people to run his team? (First time GMs with a short leash), well, that's on ownership.

Can't like this enough!

They're the constant. Why would anyone trust them to rebuild the team when they're literally doing it the same way the did it before? No vets, build through the draft, giving young guys letters with no xp and far too much ice time without being insulated by real pros. They need to go. Look at every other GM/Hockey ops person in the league and then look at Buffalo's. Buffalo fans should chase them out of WNY.

 

[Der Jaeger]

So, there's a conflict between many of the statements on here about the Pegula's, because they have a really good track record with the Bills. Here's what I think:

Remember when TPegula said he never fires people in his business? While that may not be completely true, I think it gives some insight into their managerial style. I think TPegula likes to hire people, trust them, and while have some input, let people he trusts run the business.

Look at the Bills: they purchase a team with Doug Whaley in charge, the hand picked successor of Buddy Nix, and Doug Marrone. Marrone quits, so Whaley and Russ Brandon combine with the Pegula's to hire Rex Ryan. A good front office person would've told the Pegula's to stay away. I imagine Whaley was interested in Ryan due to facing him when he was in Baltimore, when Whaley was in Pittsburgh. And Ryan did have a competitive record against Belichick. But everyone knew it was past his time.

The Pegula's, with Whaley still there, hire McDermott because they trusted in the culture he said he would build - and they were right. McDermott recommended Beane. Beane hasn't just been McDermott's guy. He's been among the best GMs in the league. And the trust the Pegula's have in them is well placed. And the Pegula's aren't out of the decision making loop. They had to sign off on drafting Josh Allen after the draft day release of old tweets. But overall, the Pegula's trusted Beane and McDermott, and it's working.

Look at the Sabres. They trusted Regier and Ruff, and gave them a shot. It didn't pan out. The went with LaFontaine, who recommended Murray. Who knows what the conflict was with LaFontaine, but the Pegula's went with Murray's plan because they trusted LaFontaine, who hired him. Then they trusted Botterill. Then Krueger. The flaw hasn't been meddling, it's been trusting people who aren't getting the job done.

I do think the Sabres always needed a president of hockey operations, someone who could be the voice of reason with everyone involved. I know Adams has the title of GM, but Karmanos is doing that job. Adams is really the shadow President of Hockey Ops. He's the trusted agent who is preventing stupid decisions.

tl;dr: the Pegula's are at fault, but it's for trusting people they shouldn't have trusted.

 

[May Day 10]

Building a relevant NHL team who can sustain any level of success is more complicated and difficult than the NFL team. In the NFL, you empower your coach for the most part. You can turn over an entire roster in 2 years and have your cap clear. A rebuilding/emerging team can find like 6-8 immediate roster players in a decent draft/UDFA period.

In the NHL, you need to build in a lot of different areas and plant a lot of seeds. You need to look at players from around the world in leagues that are comparing apples to beachballs. Not to mention they are like 16-18 years old. Then you need to figure out how to develop them properly. The salary cap is also a bear of unforgiveness.

The comedy team of the Pegulas thought they can empower Ralph Kruger the way an NFL team empowers their coach because why not? The only good thing there was that it failed so spectacularly, the Pegulas could not even justify hanging on to the doomed to fail structure. Unfortunately, we are still stuck with their hand-picked grocery getter in Kevyn Adams

 

[joshjull]

So, there's a conflict between many of the statements on here about the Pegula's, because they have a really good track record with the Bills. Here's what I think:

Remember when TPegula said he never fires people in his business? While that may not be completely true, I think it gives some insight into their managerial style. I think TPegula likes to hire people, trust them, and while have some input, let people he trusts run the business.

Look at the Bills: they purchase a team with Doug Whaley in charge, the hand picked successor of Buddy Nix, and Doug Marrone. Marrone quits, so Whaley and Russ Brandon combine with the Pegula's to hire Rex Ryan. A good front office person would've told the Pegula's to stay away. I imagine Whaley was interested in Ryan due to facing him when he was in Baltimore, when Whaley was in Pittsburgh. And Ryan did have a competitive record against Belichick. But everyone knew it was past his time.

The Pegula's, with Whaley still there, hire McDermott because they trusted in the culture he said he would build - and they were right. McDermott recommended Beane. Beane hasn't just been McDermott's guy. He's been among the best GMs in the league. And the trust the Pegula's have in them is well placed. And the Pegula's aren't out of the decision making loop. They had to sign off on drafting Josh Allen after the draft day release of old tweets. But overall, the Pegula's trusted Beane and McDermott, and it's working.

Look at the Sabres. They trusted Regier and Ruff, and gave them a shot. It didn't pan out. The went with LaFontaine, who recommended Murray. Who knows what the conflict was with LaFontaine, but the Pegula's went with Murray's plan because they trusted LaFontaine, who hired him. Then they trusted Botterill. Then Krueger. The flaw hasn't been meddling, it's been trusting people who aren't getting the job done.

I do think the Sabres always needed a president of hockey operations, someone who could be the voice of reason with everyone involved. I know Adams has the title of GM, but Karmanos is doing that job. Adams is really the shadow President of Hockey Ops. He's the trusted agent who is preventing stupid decisions.

tl;dr: the Pegula's are at fault, but it's for trusting people they shouldn't have trusted.

I’ve felt for some time that we’ve had a de facto VP of hockey ops and GM set up with Adams/Karmanos. From the get go Karmanos was given all the same duties as Adams and his first act was to do an extensive review of the organization from top to bottom.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I’ve felt for some time that we’ve had a de facto VP of hockey ops and GM set up with Adams/Karmanos. From the get go Karmanos was given all the same duties as Adams and his first act was to do a full and extensive review of the organization. Something you would expect from a new GM.

Thought the same thing! Adams hired Karmanos, and then basically gave him authority over everything.

 

[joshjull]

Thought the same thing! Adams hired Karmanos, and then basically gave him authority over everything.

This set up basically makes Adams the buffer between the Pegulas and “the GM” posters have wanted for years.


On a side note, I wonder if there is an agreement to make that (VP/GM setup) official if things go well down the line. It would explain Karmanos willingness to come here.

 

[Der Jaeger]

This set up basically makes Adams the buffer between the Pegulas and “the GM” posters have wanted for years.


On a side note, I wonder if there is an agreement to make that (VP/GM setup) official if things go well down the line. It would explain Karmanos willingness to come here.

That would make sense. I don't see Karmanos coming without that type of agreement either.

 

[TehDoak]

This set up basically makes Adams the buffer between the Pegulas and “the GM” posters have wanted for years.


I wonder if there is an agreement to make that (VP/GM setup) official if things go well down the line. It would explain Karmanos willingness to come here.

I mean, first off, i don't think Karmonos was highly in demand. He was fired in October and hired in April. I think his willingness to come here has more to do with continuing his front office career than anything else.

I'm not saying the VP/GM saying isn't accurate, but its not like he had 5 job offers on his desk the day he was let go. I know he claimed he turned down opportunities to come here, but that could have been in a much lessor position.

Second, what I want, more than anything, is a Beane like figure for the Sabres. A competent, calm, personality who can confidently tell the Pegula's "No, we aren't doing that and here is why" and answer the Pegula's questions and make them feel good about the direction the team is going. Adams just feels like a guy who is more of a yes man than anything. If the Pegula's ask him to jump, he'll say how high. It's why he was hired. And sure, he might be a buffer between Karmanos (if he ends up being the GM), I just don't feel like he will be able to push back that hard on the Pegula's.

 

[joshjull]

Can't like this enough!

They're the constant. Why would anyone trust them to rebuild the team when they're literally doing it the same way the did it before? No vets, build through the draft, giving young guys letters with no xp and far too much ice time without being insulated by real pros. They need to go. Look at every other GM/Hockey ops person in the league and then look at Buffalo's. Buffalo fans should chase them out of WNY.

The Pegulas deserve all the abuse and scorn they get for the previous 6 years. But we are not trying to do the same thing.

1) We have never tried to build through the draft. We could have coming out of the tank but Murray chose to rush things instead.

2) We have vets, posters may not like them but they're there.

3) We don’t have “kids” to protect outside of maybe Cozens.

4) They haven’t given any of the young guys a letter as far as I know. I assume you’re referring to Jack getting the C. That could change in camp but hasn’t happened so far.

 

[joshjull]

I mean, first off, i don't think Karmonos was highly in demand. He was fired in October and hired in April. I think his willingness to come here has more to do with continuing his front office career than anything else.

I'm not saying the VP/GM saying isn't accurate, but its not like he had 5 job offers on his desk the day he was let go. I know he claimed he turned down opportunities to come here, but that could have been in a much lessor position.

Second, what I want, more than anything, is a Beane like figure for the Sabres. A competent, calm, personality who can confidently tell the Pegula's "No, we aren't doing that and here is why" and answer the Pegula's questions and make them feel good about the direction the team is going. Adams just feels like a guy who is more of a yes man than anything. If the Pegula's ask him to jump, he'll say how high. It's why he was hired. And sure, he might be a buffer between Karmanos (if he ends up being the GM), I just don't feel like he will be able to push back that hard on the Pegula's.

I look at it more from how undesirable a job being Adams right hand man would look to someone with Karmanos experience. Even if they are friends. It may not ever become an official thing but Karmanos has the portfolio of a GM here.


EDIT: as for the second part you're pretty much describing Adams. I also think you and others very much overplay the amount of push back Beane or Adams would even have to do. They are both liked and trusted by the Pegulas because both of them included them. A huge part of the problem with Botts and the Pegulas was lack of communication which led to lack of trust. So they felt the need to insert themselves more.

 

[TehDoak]

I look at more from how undesirable a job being Adams right hand man would look to someone with Karmanos experience. Even if they are friends. It may not ever become an official thing but Karmanos has the portfolio here of a GM.


EDIT: as for the second part you're pretty much describing Adams. I also think you an others very much overplay the amount of push back Beane or Adams would even have to do. They are both liked and trusted by the Pegulas. A huge part of the problem with Botts and the Pegulas was lack of communication which led to lack of trust. So they felt the need to insert themselves more to get mor up to speed on what’s going on with their team. Whereas Beane/Adams are smart enough to keep them in the loop. I would add McDermiit to that as well.

Let's not mince words. If Adams was fired today, his resume wouldn't get him any NHL front office job. I'm not talking GM job, I'm talking assistant GM, scout, etc. He simply doesn't have a front office background at any level. And, to be even more frank, he wasn't hired because of his resume, he was hired because he was willing to do the Pegula's dirty work for them of laying off staffers during a pandemic, something the former GM was unwilling to do.

I'm very glad Karmanos is here now, and I'm very glad they are investing in analytics. However, in terms of the Pegula's, I don't think Adams has the ability (or experience) to give significant push back. His bootlicking at every public opportunity tells you everything you need to know about the relationship. He's here to fufill the Pegula's vision for the Sabres, and right now that is to run as cheaply as humanly possible.

 

[brian_griffin]

I’ve felt for some time that we’ve had a de facto VP of hockey ops and GM set up with Adams/Karmanos. From the get go Karmanos was given all the same duties as Adams and his first act was to do an extensive review of the organization from top to bottom.

Thought the same thing! Adams hired Karmanos, and then basically gave him authority over everything.

Re: Adams.

I can be convinced otherwise, but my view of the Adams/Karmanos relationship is the same as above. Adams has the Pegula's trust, and he's power/role-sharing to execute accordingly.
In my opinion:
1. Adams will be judged 1000% on how he handles Eichel/Fish, if and when he trades him, and what the return will be.
2. Adams will be judged on that regardless of whether he does 1% of the negotiations and Karamanos 99%, or Adams does 99% of the negotiations and Karamanos 1%.
3. At least Adams has "stopped digging the hole". At least it seems that way. If Botterill, Krueger, Housley, etc., were still on board, they would be practicing shoveling daily, just to keep in shape.
4. The one thing I don't like about Adams is he comes across in video / Zoom as somewhat not resolute. You hear it in his tone, pacing, and see it in his facial expressions. Perhaps COVID and Zoom, etc., have spotlighted contrasting video communication styles, for good or for bad.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Re: Adams.

I can be convinced otherwise, but my view of the Adams/Karmanos relationship is the same as above. Adams has the Pegula's trust, and he's power/role-sharing to execute accordingly.
In my opinion:
1. Adams will be judged 1000% on how he handles Eichel/Fish, if and when he trades him, and what the return will be.
2. Adams will be judged on that regardless of whether he does 1% of the negotiations and Karamanos 99%, or Adams does 99% of the negotiations and Karamanos 1%.
3. At least Adams has "stopped digging the hole". At least it seems that way. If Botterill, Krueger, Housley, etc., were still on board, they would be practicing shoveling daily, just to keep in shape.
4. The one thing I don't like about Adams is he comes across in video / Zoom as somewhat not resolute. You hear it in his tone, pacing, and see it in his facial expressions. Perhaps COVID and Zoom, etc., have spotlighted contrasting video communication styles, for good or for bad.

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. I don't think resolve comes across well on video. I've worked with plenty of leaders who come across as wishy-washy on video communications, but are some of the most determined and resolute people I know.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

So, there's a conflict between many of the statements on here about the Pegula's, because they have a really good track record with the Bills. Here's what I think:

Remember when TPegula said he never fires people in his business? While that may not be completely true, I think it gives some insight into their managerial style. I think TPegula likes to hire people, trust them, and while have some input, let people he trusts run the business.

Look at the Bills: they purchase a team with Doug Whaley in charge, the hand picked successor of Buddy Nix, and Doug Marrone. Marrone quits, so Whaley and Russ Brandon combine with the Pegula's to hire Rex Ryan. A good front office person would've told the Pegula's to stay away. I imagine Whaley was interested in Ryan due to facing him when he was in Baltimore, when Whaley was in Pittsburgh. And Ryan did have a competitive record against Belichick. But everyone knew it was past his time.

The Pegula's, with Whaley still there, hire McDermott because they trusted in the culture he said he would build - and they were right. McDermott recommended Beane. Beane hasn't just been McDermott's guy. He's been among the best GMs in the league. And the trust the Pegula's have in them is well placed. And the Pegula's aren't out of the decision making loop. They had to sign off on drafting Josh Allen after the draft day release of old tweets. But overall, the Pegula's trusted Beane and McDermott, and it's working.

Look at the Sabres. They trusted Regier and Ruff, and gave them a shot. It didn't pan out. The went with LaFontaine, who recommended Murray. Who knows what the conflict was with LaFontaine, but the Pegula's went with Murray's plan because they trusted LaFontaine, who hired him. Then they trusted Botterill. Then Krueger. The flaw hasn't been meddling, it's been trusting people who aren't getting the job done.

I do think the Sabres always needed a president of hockey operations, someone who could be the voice of reason with everyone involved. I know Adams has the title of GM, but Karmanos is doing that job. Adams is really the shadow President of Hockey Ops. He's the trusted agent who is preventing stupid decisions.

tl;dr: the Pegula's are at fault, but it's for trusting people they shouldn't have trusted.

AND NOT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE..........

 

[joshjull]

Let's not mince words. If Adams was fired today, his resume wouldn't get him any NHL front office job. I'm not talking GM job, I'm talking assistant GM, scout, etc. He simply doesn't have a front office background at any level. And, to be even more frank, he wasn't hired because of his resume, he was hired because he was willing to do the Pegula's dirty work for them of laying off staffers during a pandemic, something the former GM was unwilling to do.

I'm very glad Karmanos is here now, and I'm very glad they are investing in analytics. However, in terms of the Pegula's, I don't think Adams has the ability (or experience) to give significant push back. His bootlicking at every public opportunity tells you everything you need to know about the relationship. He's here to fufill the Pegula's vision for the Sabres, and right now that is to run as cheaply as humanly possible.

We all he know he isn’t qualified to be a GM or an AGM in the NHL. That he could only get the job here. No one one has argued otherwise. Why even bring it up? This strikes me as ranting for its own sake.

Has it occurred to you and others that Adams is as aware of his shortcomings as we are? (Though doubtfully as harsh on himself)

That its the reason he brought on Karmanos and took the somewhat unusual step of handing him the entirety of the GM portfolio as his responsibilities. Adams also asked him (Karmanos) to do an entire top to bottom review of the organization as his first task (as opposed to Adams doing it). This set up is why I’ve viewed their relationship as effectively on par with a VP of hockey ops/GM arrangement in practice if not in name.

 

[joshjull]

Re: Adams.

I can be convinced otherwise, but my view of the Adams/Karmanos relationship is the same as above. Adams has the Pegula's trust, and he's power/role-sharing to execute accordingly.
In my opinion:
1. Adams will be judged 1000% on how he handles Eichel/Fish, if and when he trades him, and what the return will be.
2. Adams will be judged on that regardless of whether he does 1% of the negotiations and Karamanos 99%, or Adams does 99% of the negotiations and Karamanos 1%.
3. At least Adams has "stopped digging the hole". At least it seems that way. If Botterill, Krueger, Housley, etc., were still on board, they would be practicing shoveling daily, just to keep in shape.
4. The one thing I don't like about Adams is he comes across in video / Zoom as somewhat not resolute. You hear it in his tone, pacing, and see it in his facial expressions. Perhaps COVID and Zoom, etc., have spotlighted contrasting video communication styles, for good or for bad.

I completely agree the buck will stop with Adams on an Eichel trade, no matter what the arrangement is.

 

[MetalJaws]

The Pegulas deserve all the abuse and scorn they get for the previous 6 years. But we are not trying to do the same thing.

1) We have never tried to build through the draft. We could have coming out of the tank but Murray chose to rush things instead.

2) We have vets, posters may not like them but they're there.

3) We don’t have “kids” to protect outside of maybe Cozens.

4) They haven’t given any of the young guys a letter as far as I know. I assume you’re referring to Jack getting the C. That could change in camp but hasn’t happened so far.

1. Drafting Eichel, Risto, Grig, Gerg, Reinhart, Mittle, Nylander and Zadarov is pretty much building through the draft. All high end draft picks and tanking years.

2. Hardly NHL players. Some of the worst contracts in the league. That only makes the room worse.

3/4 Cozens, Quinn, Dahlin, Power and Mittle are all going to play on a bottom feeder for a couple more years, get the loser bug like the previous rebuild, have nobody to look up to and have a rotating door of incompetence at the Hockey Ops/GM level.

RFA's not signed yet. They're probably looking at their last leadership group thinking they shouldn't sign long-term and become UFA's as fast as possible.

I really feel the rebuild is necessary, just with a hockey mind at the helm. Rookie GM and the Pegulas have already proven they're in way over their heads. They thought they were playoff contenders last year. They're delusional.

Buffalo deserves better.

 

[joshjull]

1. Drafting Eichel, Risto, Grig, Gerg, Reinhart, Mittle, Nylander and Zadarov is pretty much building through the draft. All high end draft picks and tanking years.

You just named a handful of players we’ve drafted in the first round over ten years. Thats not an argument that we built through the drafted. It shows we’ve sucked for a long time. Plus Nylander and Mitts were not during tank years and three (Zads/Girgs/Nylander) were traded away before they even had a chance to matter on the roster. Which is the opposite of building through the draft.

2. Hardly NHL players. Some of the worst contracts in the league. That only makes the room worse.

Skinner, Girgs, Miller, Okposo, Eakin, Hinostroza, Caggiula, Butcher, Hagg, Psysk, Anderson and Dell make the room worse? Based on what?

3/4 Cozens, Quinn, Dahlin, Power and Mittle are all going to play on a bottom feeder for a couple more years, get the loser bug like the previous rebuild, have nobody to look up to and have a rotating door of incompetence at the Hockey Ops/GM level.

Mitts and Dahlin are in the perfect wheelhouse age and development-wise to take up the roles they will have. The training wheels don’t need to be on them any more. Its less clear with Cozens but plenty of roster options to avoid swamping him if they chose to shelter him. Quinn will be starting in Rochester and Power will be in Michigan which are smart choices for their development. The opposite of what we’ve done in the past.

RFA's not signed yet. They're probably looking at their last leadership group thinking they shouldn't sign long-term and become UFA's as fast as possible.

Or more likely the team and the players are deciding whats best (bridge or long term) and what each scenario would cost.

I really feel the rebuild is necessary, just with a hockey mind at the helm. Rookie GM and the Pegulas have already proven they're in way over their heads. They thought they were playoff contenders last year. They're delusional.

If Adams was by himself and not attached at the hip with Karmanos you might have a point.

Buffalo deserves better.

We’ve certainly deserved better than what we’ve gotten the previous 6 years.

 

[Buffaloed]

Continued All Things Pegula 2