All things Pegula 1

[slip]

The Cowboys are a completely different beast because Jerry Jones has made himself the GM while also having way more football experience prior to buying the Cowboys than Snyder had prior to buying WFT or hockey experience in the case of the Pegulas buying the Sabres

Jimmy Johnson build those epic Cowboys teams. Jones is a megalomaniacal clown who has won nothing since he took full control of personnel moves after ousting Johnson (Switzer's SB win was still built on the back of Johnson's core roster). The history of the team speaks for itself.

 

[p0nchik]

Agree that he's not 'cheap', and has spent very recklessly. However:
1. It doesn't matter that he fired "Botterill and everyone else." Only a small handful of those individuals had contracts that had to be paid out, everyone else was at-will.
2. Buffalo is not a 'minuscule market'. This was covered in the stadium thread, but Buffalo + Rochester + the closer parts of Southern Ontario is over 3M people. There are plenty of people and money to support an NHL team comfortably.
3. I'm not sure he gets 'credit' for spending to the cap ; it's always been in his personal financial interests to do so, even if the dollars are poorly spent.
4. The Sabres are still in town because of B. Thomas Golisano. Period. Pegula doesn't get credit for that.

1. I only mentioned that he fired Botterill and his guys to disprove the narrative that he is cheap. The narrative was that he fired the scouting staff and kept a skeleton crew to "save money" when that was not the objective, considering it's already being rebuilt and we're adding a analytics department

2. I'm sorry, Buffalo is a hilariously small market. Buffalonians have a very proud mindset which blind them. How many people from Rochester drive to Buffalo for a hockey game? It's at the point where it should not even be considered. How many Southern Ontario brands and companies sponsor the Sabres? It's negibible. Buffalo is a terribly small market. Without Pegula there is no Sabres.

3. You'll have to explain how it's in his financial interest to spend to the cap. I'm trying to wrap my head around that logic.

4. Golisano should get praise even if he is, at the core, responsible for where we are now. I do praise him. Just like I praise Pegula for wasting money in a minuscule market. Both can get praise. It's not a zero sum game.

 

[p0nchik]

How many videos produced by the Sabres , showing Terry Pegula in the room and participating in conversations about 'should we or shouldn't we' . do you need to see?

I'm confused. The prevailing narrative is that he is too hands on. I don't care one iota if he is in the room, in his suite, or at home watching TV with a bag of chips. Owners are not managers. Owners are not coaches. What you're implying is that he should be more hands on when he is already bizarrely criticized for being too hands on.

To me, this point stems from anger from losing and no idea where to direct. Pegula, as any owner would, is at the forefront of the blame. I get it.

But this is a strange argument to me, along with your previous post.

I'm not sure what more you want from a billionaire owner.

He checks all of the boxes.

Saved the Sabres - could easily relocate and make more money
Spends his money recklessly
Helped improve the city's waterfront
Constantly tries to fix the problems (even though he created) by firing and replacing management
Is still paying former players, coaches, and managers

If this were Golisano, we would be the Arizona Coyotes of this league. I can only use Golisano as an example because no other other would keep the Sabres in this minuscule market.

 

[Jacob582]

I sincerely doubt it. The prevailing narrative that Pegula is cheap makes no sense to me. He spends recklessly. It's a matter of us being terrible and a poor strat to spend for the sake of spending. he's spent to the ceiling on last place teams.

I sincerely doubt it. The narrative that Pegula continues to spend recklessly makes no sense to me.

They are not cheap, and they are not spending recklessly any more.

They have worked hard to make the organization more economical and efficient.

Even Hall was only for 1 year. They gave him an $8M contract. Bruins gave him a $24M contract. (Not reckless, also not cheap. Efficient/smart another story because Hall was only looking for a Pegula payday).

I do think they will spend too the cap again when needed because they still want to win. I think that being at the floor is just a 1 year thing. There just won't be any long term UFA signings.

 

[Jim Bob]

Jimmy Johnson build those epic Cowboys teams. Jones is a megalomaniacal clown who has won nothing since he took full control of personnel moves after ousting Johnson (Switzer's SB win was still built on the back of Johnson's core roster). The history of the team speaks for itself.

I don't disagree.

I just believe that Snyder is a better comparable to the Pegulas because Jones actually made himself the GM vs the Pegulas and Snyder influencing the GM's player decisions.

 

[Jim Bob]

I sincerely doubt it. The narrative that Pegula continues to spend recklessly makes no sense to me.

They are not cheap, and they are not spending recklessly any more.

They have worked hard to make the organization more economical and efficient.

Even Hall was only for 1 year. They gave him an $8M contract. Bruins gave him a $24M contract. (Not reckless, also not cheap. Efficient/smart another story because Hall was only looking for a Pegula payday).

I do think they will spend too the cap again when needed because they still want to win. I think that being at the floor is just a 1 year thing. There just won't be any long term UFA signings.

I am more concerned with the non-player payroll cuts than I am with how much they are pouring into player payroll this year.

The most obvious thing was the deep cuts in spending on hockey ops that they seemed to force on their newest rookie GM. Hiring Karmanos was a good move. The two open postings for analytics hires is a good move.

But, with only 11 people in the scouting department, they still have one of the smallest scouting staffs in the league. For a team that wants to build through drafting and developing players, that is concerning.

 

[Jacob582]

I am more concerned with the non-player payroll cuts than I am with how much they are pouring into player payroll this year.

The most obvious thing was the deep cuts in spending on hockey ops that they seemed to force on their newest rookie GM. Hiring Karmanos was a good move. The two open postings for analytics hires is a good move.

But, with only 11 people in the scouting department, they still have one of the smallest scouting staffs in the league. For a team that wants to build through drafting and developing players, that is concerning.

It seems that they are investing more in analytics than scouting staff.

 

[Jim Bob]

It seems that they are investing more in analytics than scouting staff.

Hiring two people (and neither job posting lists a salary BTW) isn't a huge investment. And it can be viewed as a cost cutting move as scouts that don't merely scout via video also require sizable travel budgets to do their jobs.

Devs just require a desk, a computer, and a nice chair.

 

[SackTastic]

I'm confused. The prevailing narrative is that he is too hands on. I don't care one iota if he is in the room, in his suite, or at home watching TV with a bag of chips. Owners are not managers. Owners are not coaches. What you're implying is that he should be more hands on when he is already bizarrely criticized for being too hands on.

To me, this point stems from anger from losing and no idea where to direct. Pegula, as any owner would, is at the forefront of the blame. I get it.

But this is a strange argument to me, along with your previous post.

I'm not sure what more you want from a billionaire owner.

He checks all of the boxes.

Saved the Sabres - could easily relocate and make more money
Spends his money recklessly
Helped improve the city's waterfront
Constantly tries to fix the problems (even though he created) by firing and replacing management
Is still paying former players, coaches, and managers

If this were Golisano, we would be the Arizona Coyotes of this league. I can only use Golisano as an example because no other other would keep the Sabres in this minuscule market.

1. He didn't 'save' the Sabres. BTG bought the team to prevent them from moving. BTG added the clause to the sales contract to prevent future owners from moving them.
2. Spending money recklessly is not a positive trait.
3. Phase 1 of Canalside and the Central Wharf were completed in 2008. Construction on Harborcenter didn't start until 2013. Pegula hasn't had any involvement in any of the other projects down there.
4. You don't get credit for fixing your own mistakes only if you simply repeat the same ones.

I am not sure how you think I am implying Pegula should be 'more hands on'. It's exactly the opposite. You ask me what I want from a billionaire owner? Simple.

1. Understand the business I own.
2. Hire the right people to run it.
3. Stay out of the way.

It's really that simple.

Pegula doesn't hire the best people to run things. He hires the ones that will bow down to him and his wife. They are 100% the Allegheny Hillbillies ; small town people who think they know everything, and stumbled on a ton of money.

 

[SackTastic]

1. I only mentioned that he fired Botterill and his guys to disprove the narrative that he is cheap. The narrative was that he fired the scouting staff and kept a skeleton crew to "save money" when that was not the objective, considering it's already being rebuilt and we're adding a analytics department

2. I'm sorry, Buffalo is a hilariously small market. Buffalonians have a very proud mindset which blind them. How many people from Rochester drive to Buffalo for a hockey game? It's at the point where it should not even be considered. How many Southern Ontario brands and companies sponsor the Sabres? It's negibible. Buffalo is a terribly small market. Without Pegula there is no Sabres.

3. You'll have to explain how it's in his financial interest to spend to the cap. I'm trying to wrap my head around that logic.

4. Golisano should get praise even if he is, at the core, responsible for where we are now. I do praise him. Just like I praise Pegula for wasting money in a minuscule market. Both can get praise. It's not a zero sum game.

2. Plenty of people drive from Rochester to watch Sabres games, just as plenty of people from Southern Ontario come to games. (In the Before Times anyways.) You argument about 'Southern Ontario business sponsoring things' is pretty silly; There has never been a massive flow of people from the US going to Canada to shop because of exchange rates, so why would those companies advertise to a US market base? No return on that advertising dollar. Learn 2 economics.

Also, please don't accuse me of being 'blinded'. I am very familiar with the relative size of the Buffalo market; pre-pandemic I spent about 20% of my time in NYC/LA/SF for work. Buffalo is not those cities, nor is it a hick backwater. This 'hilariously small market' somehow has been able to rub our pennies together to have a 5 year season ticket holding waiting list for the Sabres, and still sell out the hockey and football stadiums regularly when both teams were complete crap.

3. The Billionaire Playbook: How Sports Owners Use Their Teams to Avoid Millions in Taxes — ProPublica

4. Yes, he should. But praising Pegula for wasting money like a frat boy who ? What? I still don't understand this. Good franchises spend money to get the max return from that expense. Sayings it's a good thing that for most of his ownership tenure they've been paying for multiple coaches and GMs at the same time because of how much of a trainwreck they have been? What?

 

[p0nchik]

1. He didn't 'save' the Sabres. BTG bought the team to prevent them from moving. BTG added the clause to the sales contract to prevent future owners from moving them.
2. Spending money recklessly is not a positive trait.
3. Phase 1 of Canalside and the Central Wharf were completed in 2008. Construction on Harborcenter didn't start until 2013. Pegula hasn't had any involvement in any of the other projects down there.
4. You don't get credit for fixing your own mistakes only if you simply repeat the same ones.

I am not sure how you think I am implying Pegula should be 'more hands on'. It's exactly the opposite. You ask me what I want from a billionaire owner? Simple.

1. Understand the business I own.
2. Hire the right people to run it.
3. Stay out of the way.

It's really that simple.

Pegula doesn't hire the best people to run things. He hires the ones that will bow down to him and his wife. They are 100% the Allegheny Hillbillies ; small town people who think they know everything, and stumbled on a ton of money.

You're really nitpicking here. Why don't you just explain why you don't like Pegula, because I'm failing to understand all of your points.

Still seems like you're missing the big point. What's the alternative?

 

[p0nchik]

I sincerely doubt it. The narrative that Pegula continues to spend recklessly makes no sense to me.

They are not cheap, and they are not spending recklessly any more.

They have worked hard to make the organization more economical and efficient.

Even Hall was only for 1 year. They gave him an $8M contract. Bruins gave him a $24M contract. (Not reckless, also not cheap. Efficient/smart another story because Hall was only looking for a Pegula payday).

I do think they will spend too the cap again when needed because they still want to win. I think that being at the floor is just a 1 year thing. There just won't be any long term UFA signings.

Well, there is no reason to spend anymore. Team is not near contending. I think the economic situation is more related to their status now as bottom dwellers. The Hall deal was born from the flat-cap coronavirus situation.

 

[SackTastic]

You're really nitpicking here. Why don't you just explain why you don't like Pegula, because I'm failing to understand all of your points.

Still seems like you're missing the big point. What's the alternative?

I'm not missing any points. I don't agree with your beatification of Terrance Pegula, and you don't seem interested in any counter arguments. So I don't think we have anything further to discuss. Take care!

 

[Jacob582]

Well, there is no reason to spend anymore. Team is not near contending. I think the economic situation is more related to their status now as bottom dwellers. The Hall deal was born from the flat-cap coronavirus situation.

Not sure how the flat-cap coronavirus dictated the Hall signing. (Had a bearing on the term and his availability, yes)

It seems like Hall was signed to try to compete and keep Eichel in Buffalo.

 

[Buffaloed]

Hiring two people (and neither job posting lists a salary BTW) isn't a huge investment. And it can be viewed as a cost cutting move as scouts that don't merely scout via video also require sizable travel budgets to do their jobs.

Devs just require a desk, a computer, and a nice chair.

RJ isn't retiring, he taking a new position.

 

[SackTastic]

Not sure how the flat-cap coronavirus dictated the Hall signing. (Had a bearing on the term and his availability, yes)

It seems like Hall was signed to try to compete and keep Eichel in Buffalo.

Hall was not getting the fat dollar+term offers he wanted from other teams, mostly because of the cap concerns. Buffalo had this crackhead idea that he was the 'missing piece' that would take them somewhere, so they gave him a desperation contract with a fat check and full control of his own destiny.

 

[Zman5778]

Hall was not getting the fat dollar+term offers he wanted from other teams, mostly because of the cap concerns. Buffalo had this crackhead idea that he was the 'missing piece' that would take them somewhere, so they gave him a desperation contract with a fat check and full control of his own destiny.

I don't even think it was KA or Pegula that had the crackhead idea. The Hall contract was 100% Ralphie, IMO. HE thought that he could be the missing piece and then we could roll a traditional 2 scoring lines, Eakin centering the defense-1st 3rd line and an energetic 4th line.

Whoops.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Hall was not getting the fat dollar+term offers he wanted from other teams, mostly because of the cap concerns. Krueger had this crackhead idea that he was the 'missing piece' that would take them somewhere, so they gave him a desperation contract with a fat check and full control of his own destiny.

Fixed. Buffalo's problem, as an organization, was that they listened.

 

[TehDoak]

To me, this point stems from anger from losing and no idea where to direct. Pegula, as any owner would, is at the forefront of the blame. I get it.

But this is a strange argument to me, along with your previous post.

I'm not sure what more you want from a billionaire owner.

He checks all of the boxes.

Saved the Sabres - could easily relocate and make more money
Spends his money recklessly
Helped improve the city's waterfront
Constantly tries to fix the problems (even though he created) by firing and replacing management
Is still paying former players, coaches, and managers

If this were Golisano, we would be the Arizona Coyotes of this league. I can only use Golisano as an example because no other other would keep the Sabres in this minuscule market.

The issue isn't the Pegula's spending (they've likely lost more money on the team in year to year losses than they spent buying the team at this point)

The issue isn't the Pegula's firing people, I'd say most fans agreed with every firing they have done.

The issue is, across 10 years, 4 GMs, 6 coaches, entire roster turnover multiple times....the one constant in all this losing is the Pegulas.

If a team loses 10 games in a row, you blame the players.

If a team loses 2 seasons in a row, you blame the coaches.

If a team loses 4 seasons in a row, you blame the GM.

If the team loses 10 seasons in a row across several players, coaches, and GMs

And the owner continues to operate and hire the same type of people to run his team? (First time GMs with a short leash), well, that's on ownership.

 

[Paxon]

How can anyone seriously argue that the Pegula's haven't massively shit the bed with the Sabres? One of the most respected and successful (by win-loss record) franchises in the NHL is now the biggest joke in the league, one of the worst in all of NA pro sports. They have done virtually nothing right as Sabres owners. They haven't even done an overall positive job within the organization outside of hockey operations.

Any argument that they saved the Sabres is inarguably, objectively wrong. They didn't. Full stop. That was Golisano, which was only required because the previous owners were white collar crooks. I don't want them to sell the team or anything but their only positive attribute so far as Sabres owners has been a willingness to spend money, which has amounted to jack shit.

 

[oldgoalie]

How can anyone seriously argue that the Pegula's haven't massively shit the bed with the Sabres? One of the most respected and successful (by win-loss record) franchises in the NHL is now the biggest joke in the league, one of the worst in all of NA pro sports. They have done virtually nothing right as Sabres owners. They haven't even done an overall positive job within the organization outside of hockey operations.

Any argument that they saved the Sabres is inarguably, objectively wrong. They didn't. Full stop. That was Golisano, which was only required because the previous owners were white collar crooks. I don't want them to sell the team or anything but their only positive attribute so far as Sabres owners has been a willingness to spend money, which has amounted to jack shit.

All of the above... so much. So much. Remembering back to a time when the arena was always full, and opposing teams HATED to come into the arena and play the Sabres.

 

[SackTastic]

All of the above... so much. So much. Remembering back to a time when the arena was always full, and opposing teams HATED to come into the arena and play the Sabres.

So true.

For as much as I remember the energy in the building during some of those deep playoff runs, and the literal shock of the sound from the crowd after the Umberger hit that cause me to drop both of my beers, I also remember being in there at the tail end of the Rigas years where there was barely 10k there, and probably only 7k in seats.

That's what we have to look forward to very, very soon.

 

[May Day 10]

The Pegulas are indefensible in their management of the Sabres at this point. There is one common thread and the results speak for themselves from where they took over the team in 2011 through now (and likely the foreseeable future). They have had almost zero meaningful games. I have been so disenfranchised as a fan, going from watching 98%ish of games for about 30 years and being a proud multiple decade season ticket holder to watching maybe a combined 60-minutes last season, and maybe a total of 4-5 games the season before.

The fact that they still refuse to plug in any senior VP of hockey-type role with anybody with experience and credibility is shocking. We get Kevyn Adams who managed a nepotistic Youth hockey organization and a terrible job managing the Sabres' business side for a year. But you know, he played pro hockey and lives in Buffalo so that qualifies him for any position at PSE apparently. This organization is such a heavy lift right now, how can they expect it to be done with skimping on management and experience? Because Analytics? I wont hold my breath. Tampa, Boston, Toronto, Montreal, Florida, and Detroit will continue to run laps around them. I would trade positions with Ottawa without thinking twice.

Off the ice, they are terrible as well. All the gaffes such as the alumni jerseys that were incorrect, the complete abandonment of the team hall of fame and history, to alienating my favorite all-time player, terrible STH pricing structures implemented overnight with no thought, to draconian measures treating their employees, to even yesterday with an embarrassing typo on STH marketing material. It is not a professional outfit. No attention to detail. Not anything I can take pride in as a fan. The one good thing in the organization over this era, Ted Black, was sent packing for Russ Brandon of all people. It is like they have some sort of automatic disposition to make the wrong decision every single time. Maybe it is time to get help?


I would compare the Sabres to the 00's Bills the most. It feels like T and K Pegula try to keep everything to people they like, people with qualities they feel they can mesh with, and keep their inner circle empowered in order to maintain control. LaFontaine told them they were wrong, butted heads with Kim on the regular with how to run his team and he eventually walked off. I wonder what would have happened if we had Murray's talent assessing prowess along with LaFontaine's counterbalance being guided by Craig Patrick. Strong-willed people are not welcome in their front-office.

 

[brian_griffin]

Agree with missing the "hard to play against, hate to play there" sentiments - it's how I was baptized into the Sabres starting in '74-75 through early 1980s. My nadir before this was the late-80s, in particular the bottom finish leading to the Turgeon draft. I was in college then and slammed between 20+ credit hours per semester, zero-credit labs, sports, and a job, so little time for hockey, thankfully. The current wallow in mediocrity es no bueno.

 

[joshjull]

So true.

For as much as I remember the energy in the building during some of those deep playoff runs, and the literal shock of the sound from the crowd after the Umberger hit that cause me to drop both of my beers, I also remember being in there at the tail end of the Rigas years where there was barely 10k there, and probably only 7k in seats.

That's what we have to look forward to very, very soon.

Yep, in about two months from now.