All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread pt 8- wait we're spending HOW MUCH?

[Helsinki Hurricanes]

Is it just me or have we been linked to Toffoli for as long as we were supposed to be trading Faulk?

I don't know how we do it but Roslovic would be really fun to watch in our lineup.

I wonder how big the difference between Bokk and Kase when it's all said and done. Were we unlucky that we didn't get Kase? It may be four or five years before we know the answer and I may be the only one on planet Earth that would still care.

Supposedly Faulk was worth Kase. There might have been picks on either side depending on his extension etc. What we ended up getting was Bokk and Edmundson.

The latter was mainly a cap dump so by this logic Bokk could be close in value to Kase. Of course depends on how Anaheim values him as a prospect. Could be an interesting trade, Car wants top 9 forward and Ana becomes younger. Naturally, we would need to get rid of some salary (McGinn/Tvr).

If Kase becomes available we sure have the picks and prospects to go for it. Mainly depends on his health and the direction Ana is heading to.

 

[emptyNedder]

If Rod wants the Canes to be like the Islanders and win by playing a perfect system then the Canes need to add experience. Their young forwards are already struggling with breakdowns and trying to do too much.

This is on the main board trade thread, but thought it would make an interesting discussion for us.

The thing is Trotz had 4 forwards (Dal Colle, Bardreau, Johnston, Wahlstrom) with less than 50 games experience each, and 2 D with less than 65 (Dobson—true rookie, and Toews) on the ice the last game. That same lineup shutout Buffalo. Only Dobson wasn't playing when NYI beat Tampa.

I think most would argue that Trotz's system is more structured than the Canes. Anecdotal evidence would suggest it is not just experience that makes a system work.

 

[GoldiFox]

This is on the main board trade thread, but thought it would make an interesting discussion for us.

The thing is Trotz had 4 forwards (Dal Colle, Bardreau, Johnston, Wahlstrom) with less than 50 games experience each, and 2 D with less than 65 (Dobson—true rookie, and Toews) on the ice the last game. That same lineup shutout Buffalo. Only Dobson wasn't playing when NYI beat Tampa.

I think most would argue that Trotz's system is more structured than the Canes. Anecdotal evidence would suggest it is not just experience that makes a system work.

Johnston (25 years old) has played 7 games and averaged 7 minutes a game
Bardreau (26 years old) has played 7 games and averaged 8-9 minutes a game
Dal Colle (23 years old) has played 13 games and averages ~12 minutes a game
Wahlstrom (19 years old) has played 8 games and averaged 10-11 minutes a game

Dobson (19 years old) has played 5 games and averaged 14-15 minutes a game
Toews (25 years old) has played all games and averages 19 minutes a game

Maybe I'm missing something but I think many of NYI's "inexperienced" players being 25 and 26 years old DOES suggest that experience is important in adhering to a system. And every one of those "forwards with less than 60 games" is averaging less ice time than the Canes lowest forward Brian Gibbons (10:37 a game) with the exception of Dal Colle. They play less games, less ice time, and lower in the lineup than the Canes 19-23 year olds (Svech, Necas, Aho, Foegele, and Wallmark).

Of all your examples Toews is the only guy playing a meaningful role with limited NHL experience, but again he is 25 years old and IMO more of an exception than the rule with how good he has been early on.

In any case, my point on the main board was less about the age/experience of NYI's fringe players and more about the core of the team.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I think most would argue that Trotz's system is more structured than the Canes. Anecdotal evidence would suggest it is not just experience that makes a system work.

In any case, my point on the main board was less about the age/experience of NYI's fringe players and more about the core of the team.

I think the key difference is that Trotz is perfectly willing to win every game 1-0. It takes a perfect group of players to buy in to a system that puts defense first, defense second, and when all else fails, don't get scored on.

Our talent doesn't support that system. Our owner would not support that system. We have tickets to sell.

I'm going to be in NYC this weekend and the Panthers play the Islanders on Saturday afternoon and the Rangers on Sunday afternoon. "In the door" price for the Islanders (again, a Saturday afternoon in Brooklyn, NY for a team that has won *10* straight games) is $12.29 including taxes and fees and an unobstructed view. This view is $60.

It's $76.90 for a "in the door" purple seat in MSG the next day against the same opponent. A similar "club center" seat at MSG is $275.

My point is that this whole thing is a balance between entertainment and winning. Right now, due to a perfect storm of oddities, the Islanders are pretty much out of the entertainment business. There's freedom that comes with that, and Trotz is taking full advantage. They're the 1990s New Jersey Devils, setting hockey back 40 years, but winning.

We simply can't afford to play that game, IMO, nor would we *want* to.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think the key difference is that Trotz is perfectly willing to win every game 1-0. It takes a perfect group of players to buy in to a system that puts defense first, defense second, and when all else fails, don't get scored on.

Our talent doesn't support that system. Our owner would not support that system. We have tickets to sell.

I'm going to be in NYC this weekend and the Panthers play the Islanders on Saturday afternoon and the Rangers on Sunday afternoon. "In the door" price for the Islanders (again, a Saturday afternoon in Brooklyn, NY for a team that has won *10* straight games) is $12.29 including taxes and fees and an unobstructed view. This view is $60.

View attachment 274215

It's $76.90 for a "in the door" purple seat in MSG the next day against the same opponent. A similar "club center" seat at MSG is $275.

My point is that this whole thing is a balance between entertainment and winning. Right now, due to a perfect storm of oddities, the Islanders are pretty much out of the entertainment business. There's freedom that comes with that, and Trotz is taking full advantage. They're the 1990s New Jersey Devils, setting hockey back 40 years, but winning.

We simply can't afford to play that game, IMO, nor would we *want* to.

Fun fact: the average attendance for all Islanders games this season -- including home AND road dates -- is 12,724.

While hopefully unsustainable, that is the lowest average for any team in the 2000s. Next lowest was in 2001, when the Islanders averaged 14,026.

 

[cptjeff]

Fun fact: the average attendance for all Islanders games this season -- including home AND road dates -- is 12,724.

While hopefully unsustainable, that is the lowest average for any team in the 2000s. Next lowest was in 2001, when the Islanders averaged 14,026.

They're an unpopular team being held afloat by a massive TV deal signed in the wake of a dynasty. I'm still not convinced the NYC area should have 3 teams, but they're all storied cup winners at this point, and the NHL hasn't had a cup winning team move since the great depression.

Still. Maybe the new arena turns things around for them, but they haven't been in a good position for decades now.

 

[tarheelhockey]

They're an unpopular team being held afloat by a massive TV deal signed in the wake of a dynasty. I'm still not convinced the NYC area should have 3 teams, but they're all storied cup winners at this point, and the NHL hasn't had a cup winning team move since the great depression.

Still. Maybe the new arena turns things around for them, but they haven't been in a good position for decades now.

I don't want to see them (or anyone else) move. That franchise has been so stupidly mismanaged for the past 30 years, and thousands of people have actually sat there through all of it and continued to have hope. It's amazing to imagine the experience of an Islanders fan born in, say, 1980.

 

[mhart1]

So I have read couple times now that Haydn Fleury would be going to Montreal. Latest rumour involved Lehkonen in return. Is it possible after the offer sheet fiasco?

 

[spockBokk]

So I have read couple times now that Haydn Fleury would be going to Montreal. Latest rumour involved Lehkonen in return. Is it possible after the offer sheet fiasco?

Where are you seeing this rumor? The Francophone news rags?

Lehkonen has a $2.4M cap hit this season and next. CAR can't take that on, even after potentially moving Fleury, and it saddles them next year as well with a $2.4M bottom 6 player. Lehkonen is more of what they already have in McGinn and Martinook. I'd like to think they're aiming a little higher and adding another piece (pick/prospect) to Fleury for a better forward, if they're truly resigned to trading him.

 

[GoldiFox]

So I have read couple times now that Haydn Fleury would be going to Montreal. Latest rumour involved Lehkonen in return. Is it possible after the offer sheet fiasco?

If a deal with Montreal makes the Canes better then I doubt they would exclude them.

Lehkonen could be of interest to the Canes and the value is close enough if the Canes liked him. During 5v5 play last year Lehkonen produced 11 goals and 33 points - similar to Justin Williams' 12 goals and 34 points (5v5). I'm not sure he moves the needle enough to justify closing off the Charlotte roster spot but that is a determination for GMBC to make.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Replacing Foegele/McGinn with another player of that ilk seems purposeless. There more I think about it, the more I dislike this idea. If they're going to augment the forward group, do it right. That will likely require some patience as teams will need to have a clearer understanding of their competitive position before selling proven talent for futures. Alternatively, Williams is still a possibility. The end goal should be a Top 6 guy.

 

[My Special Purpose]

We need another guy like Haula who relentlessly goes to the front of the net to create traffic, deflections and rebounds. If Lehkonen is like that, then welcome to the club.

Thinking about the effort against Lundqvist last night again, and I don't recall a single chance off a rebound. When you fire 90 shots and none of them are rebounds from around the crease, it's not surprising when you don't score enough.

 

[dogbazinho]

Nevermind I'm dumb

 

[DaveG]

I don't want to see them (or anyone else) move. That franchise has been so stupidly mismanaged for the past 30 years, and thousands of people have actually sat there through all of it and continued to have hope. It's amazing to imagine the experience of an Islanders fan born in, say, 1980.

It's bad enough that arguably their best owner since their dynasty years ended was John frigin Spano because of the tv deal that basically saved the team. A guy that's a step up from Karmanos on the loathsome scale due to the whole wire fraud thing.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's bad enough that arguably their best owner since their dynasty years ended was John frigin Spano because of the tv deal that basically saved the team. A guy that's a step up from Karmanos on the loathsome scale due to the whole wire fraud thing.

"Best Islanders owner since 1984: John Spano?" would be an incredible troll OP.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

"Best Islanders owner since 1984: John Spano?" would be an incredible troll OP.

On the flip side of that, who's the absolute worst NHL owner since the early '80s (eg the lifetimes of most of us, @Boom Boom Apathy aside since I'm sure he remembers when Tex Rickard owned the Rangers)?

I mean there's been some *awful* owners but who takes the cake? Kokusai Green? ASG? Karmanos? Spanos? Wang? Baldwin? Melnyk? Ralston Purina towards the end of their ownership of the Blues? There's been so many bad ones that it'd be worth examining who the worst of the worst was.

 

[tarheelhockey]

On the flip side of that, who's the absolute worst NHL owner since, the early '80s (eg the lifetimes of most of us, @Boom Boom Apathy aside since I'm sure he remembers when Tex Rickard owned the Rangers)? I mean there's been some *awful* owners but who takes the cake? Kokusai Green? ASG? Karmanos? Spanos? Wang? Baldwin? Melnyk? Ralston Purina towards the end of their ownership of the Blues? There's been so many bad ones that it'd be worth examining who the worst of the worst was.

It would be a fascinating thread. Probably a question worth posting to the History board.

It may be recency bias, but it's extremely hard for me to see past Melnyk. The only thing he has going for them is that he is not known to have actively tried to relocate the team yet.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

It would be a fascinating thread. Probably a question worth posting to the History board.

It may be recency bias, but it's extremely hard for me to see past Melnyk. The only thing he has going for them is that he is not known to have actively tried to relocate the team yet.

I could definitely see that but I'd have a hard time looking past Kokusai Green or the utter intentional negligence Ralston Purina unleashed on the Blues by refusing to take part in the 1983 NHL Draft.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I could definitely see that but I'd have a hard time looking past Kokusai Green or the utter intentional negligence Ralston Purina unleashed on the Blues by refusing to take part in the 1983 NHL Draft.

Spano scammed his way into fake ownership and was viewed as a "life saver" for the Islanders, fooling the league, fans and players. The fact that he might legitimately not be viewed as the "worst" owner is pretty amazing.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Spano scammed his way into fake ownership and was viewed as a "life saver" for the Islanders, fooling the league, fans and players. The fact that he might legitimately not be viewed as the "worst" owner is pretty amazing.

"Would the Sens be better off if a scam artist fake-bought them? A thread"

 

[AD Skinner]

Who were those two jokers that ran the lightning for a while and hired Barry Melrose as a coach? I dont think they'd take the cake as the worst but i remember that being a farce

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Who were those two jokers that ran the lightning for a while and hired Barry Melrose as a coach? I dont think they'd take the cake as the worst but i remember that being a farce

Oren Koules and Len Barrie. I completely forgot about them - in my mind the Lightning went from Davidson/Palace to Vinik.

 

[DaveG]

On the flip side of that, who's the absolute worst NHL owner since the early '80s (eg the lifetimes of most of us, @Boom Boom Apathy aside since I'm sure he remembers when Tex Rickard owned the Rangers)?

I mean there's been some *awful* owners but who takes the cake? Kokusai Green? ASG? Karmanos? Spanos? Wang? Baldwin? Melnyk? Ralston Purina towards the end of their ownership of the Blues? There's been so many bad ones that it'd be worth examining who the worst of the worst was.

Hard to not go with Ballard here all things considered but damn, it's like a who's who of "holy shit how did they ever own a team?". Technically could consider Jim Balsillie as well due to the deliberate torpedo of the bid for a new arena in Pittsburgh in order to get the team to move to Hamilton even though he was never officially the teams owner.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Hard to not go with Ballard here all things considered but damn, it's like a who's who of "holy **** how did they ever own a team?". Technically could consider Jim Balsillie as well due to the deliberate torpedo of the bid for a new arena in Pittsburgh in order to get the team to move to Hamilton even though he was never officially the teams owner.

I don't recall Balsillie torpedoing the new arena - as I remember it, the issue was that when the state of PA came calling with money for new stadia, the Pens opted for money for a renovation instead of a full arena - that was before the sales process started - and afterwards that well had run dry so they had to go the casino route. But it's been well over a decade so my memory may be a little hazy there. My memory of Balsillie's attempt to purchase the Pens was his refusal to publicly promise to adhere to the non-relocate clause.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I could definitely see that but I'd have a hard time looking past Kokusai Green or the utter intentional negligence Ralston Purina unleashed on the Blues by refusing to take part in the 1983 NHL Draft.

On further review, it’s hard for individuals to compete with corporations. Kokusai Green, ASG, Ralston Purina were objectively the worst, mainly because they had that impersonal corporate attitude toward shaking down an organization until it was a husk, then selling off the liability and moving on. Individuals can’t really do that... even the very worst like Ballard and Melnyk are at some level trying to turn a profit. Scammers are probably the closest you can get to the corporate vulture culture. Which would make Spano the worst individual, except that he hilariously managed to save the franchise with the most ridiculous TV deal in sports.