All-Purpose rant about the Expansion Draft, the VGK and Tallon

[ShootIt]

I think this is why the board died down in activity since the 2016 off-season.

Regurgitating the same ole arguments non stop. Feel like everyone has made their point 20 times over by now on almost every topic on the title topics. Doesn't it get old trying to convince someone equally as stubborn on their pov?
Got old as hell reading the same arguments over those moves last year. Yea, the admin made a thread to just discuss these topics but it always bleeds out to other threads.

Mini rant off.

 

[StrangeVision]

I think this is why the board died down in activity since the 2016 off-season.

Regurgitating the same ole arguments non stop. Feel like everyone has made their point 20 times over by now on almost every topic on the title topics. Doesn't it get old trying to convince someone equally as stubborn on their pov?
Got old as hell reading the same arguments over those moves last year. Yea, the admin made a thread to just discuss these topics but it always bleeds out to other threads.

Mini rant off.

This is part of why I don't even bother debating points back and forth on here that often anymore. It's all the same crap. The only difference is the calendar.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Yes, I obviously meant interpreted.

And you quoted my post with the Kulikov is top pairing Dman response! Look on the first page if you don't believe me. So I assumed it was directed at me! Most normal people would!

And yes, I'm sure you're relieved that old posts have been deleted. You were saying Kulikov would be out of the league in far less time than 6 years. Wouldn't surprise me at all if you've changed the goalposts again. Because that is what you normally do Mr. Strawman. You can never admit to being wrong, which is highly amusing, because you normally are!

edit. Just so you don't get confused Chaos2k7, this post has been moved. So I meant the 1st page of the original thread it was in.

I am more than willing to discuss any of the topics I am supposedly wrong about.

Your childish name calling is a trend of yours thread after thread, but I have always been available to discuss any topic you would like. More often you get mad and resort to this child level banter.

Regale us again about the Gudbranson acquisition we have in store.

Mr. Strawman, lol.

 

[Haj]

The problem with the Panthers making the move to analytics was all the dumb stuff they did afterwards.

1. Being too self congratulatory about moving to analytics
2. Claiming to value differences of opinion, then firing Gallant for having a different opinion
3. Installing Rowe as head coach
4. Incorrectly thinking that moving towards an analytics based FO was the root cause of a season where the team was in dissarray, when in fact it was ownership making dumb decisions on their own
with no regard of how it would effect the team.
5. Reactionary installing Tallon as GM, who stupidly gets rid of Smith, Marchessault, and gets a bad player for Demers because of whatever reasons.

Human beings are not fungible parts like an investment strategy. You can't replace a human with another human and expect the same performance. There is too much variation between individuals.
Ownership is treating the team like a hedge fund, i.e. lets re balance our strategy towards analytics, pat ourselves on the back, and get rid of anyone who disagrees.

Its possible to use analytics, but not be stupid about firing a coach and undoing all the good moves analytics allowed you to do. Its possible to change your strategy and not yell it from the top of the mountain. It is possible to do something good, and be quiet/humble about it.

During the 2016 season our FO and ownership was long on intelligence and short on wisdom.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

You forgot to mention that the Analytics Movement(tm) included sacking of Luce and his cronies, which in itself could be the most positive move enough to offset all the bad moves from a long-term perspective.

 

[batting1k]

The problem with the Panthers making the move to analytics was all the dumb stuff they did afterwards.

2. Claiming to value differences of opinion, then firing Gallant for having a different opinion.

If you have 5 people building a house who all have different opinions on how to build the house compared to 5 people who all agree with how the house should be built, which group is likely to see the most success?

I think in any area, if you have people working together that have the same vision, they're going to be more productive. Now obviously you still want people to challenge ideas and not just go along with everything, but if you're trying to implement a plan and the coach (who ultimately works to get the players to execute that plan + makes the lines, pairings, etc) doesn't want want to go along with that, that's an issue.

As I've said, the manner in which the firing occurred was not great. But why they may have fired Gallant makes sense to me.

 

[SimbaThePanther]

If you have 5 people building a house who all have different opinions on how to build the house compared to 5 people who all agree with how the house should be built, which group is likely to see the most success?

I think in any area, if you have people working together that have the same vision, they're going to be more productive. Now obviously you still want people to challenge ideas and not just go along with everything, but if you're trying to implement a plan and the coach (who ultimately works to get the players to execute that plan + makes the lines, pairings, etc) doesn't want want to go along with that, that's an issue.

As I've said, the manner in which the firing occurred was not great. But why they may have fired Gallant makes sense to me.

You are not wrong, it's obviously a good idea to have a group of people that have the same vision and goal but that have difference in ideas to reach that said goal. It's never a good thing if every single person draw to the same side, you need different opinions and ideas to reach a goal the best way or you get complacent. My problem with it all is that ownership should have thought about that long ago and long and hard after they extended Gallant's contract. What they did in the end was straight out of the book of how NOT to operate. My hope is they actually learned from their missakes...but only time will tell I guess.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

You also need 5 carpenters, not a taxidermist, a banker, 2 mechanics and a truck driver trying to build a house.

 

[batting1k]

You also need 5 carpenters, not a taxidermist, a banker, 2 mechanics and a truck driver trying to build a house.

So you're suggesting that we need 5 Dale Tallons?

 

[Chaos2k7]

The hockey ops should be run by hockey guys. If the paper pushers can earn their stripes they will earn the trust of whoever the GM is.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

So you're suggesting that we need 5 Dale Tallons?

Saying you need people qualified for the job. We had a guy from legal, an AHL coach and a dude whose executive experience was 1 year as an AHL GM who had his team sold without his knowledge. It didn’t take clairvoyance to know it was going to be a disaster.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

Saying you need people qualified for the job. We had a guy from legal, an AHL coach and a dude whose executive experience was 1 year as an AHL GM who had his team sold without his knowledge. It didn’t take clairvoyance to know it was going to be a disaster.

There are several orgs in the league that aren't going anywhere with their current mgmt who still have hockey accolades. Thus, it does take clairvoyance to just point out a guy, with or without hockey merit, and say that's winner right there. Rowe was a disaster and everything else that came with him but we also know that Tallon isn't probably the guy at the mgmt helm to take this team to the championship and that's why he got sacked from Chicago. We need to get rid off Dalé before he make another set of problems with the player contracts.

 

[batting1k]

Saying you need people qualified for the job. We had a guy from legal, an AHL coach and a dude whose executive experience was 1 year as an AHL GM who had his team sold without his knowledge. It didn’t take clairvoyance to know it was going to be a disaster.

Explain John Chayka, Scotty Bowman, etc etc.

It's possible to understand hockey at a deep level without having ever played a single game. This is 2018. The game is much more different now than it used to be.

So much for Dale's experience...he's so experienced that he saw no use for 750k 30-goal scorer.

 

[I am not exposed]

Explain John Chayka, Scotty Bowman, etc etc.

It's possible to understand hockey at a deep level without having ever played a single game. This is 2018. The game is much different now than it used to be.

So much for Dale's experience...he's so experienced that he saw no use for 750k 30-goal scorer.

Maybe not the best example considering where Arizona are in the standings!

 

[batting1k]

Maybe not the best example considering where Arizona are in the standings!

Yeah! Ha ha ha! So funny! You got me!


....

 

[I am not exposed]

Yeah! Ha ha ha! So funny! You got me!


....

Pointing out the obvious. Do explain why Chayka is a good example considering where the Yotes are? Because so far, it isn't looking all that good down there!

 

[RainingRats]

Experience guarantees nothing and is generally overrated. You don't need NHL experience to be a good GM. Hockey isn't complicated. There's nothing you learn playing in the NHL or AHL that's unique knowledge that makes you a better GM.

It is full of nepotism which keeps hockey people in their positions and provides them with almost all the opportunities. For an outsider to break in, it's almost impossible.

Plenty of industries have been disrupted by outsiders. Hockey, which is very basic, is no exception.

 

[I am not exposed]

I am more than willing to discuss any of the topics I am supposedly wrong about.

Your childish name calling is a trend of yours thread after thread, but I have always been available to discuss any topic you would like. More often you get mad and resort to this child level banter.

Regale us again about the Gudbranson acquisition we have in store.

Mr. Strawman, lol.

I call you Mr.Strawman because that is exactly how you act with certain topics. A good example is Kulikov. No one said he was a top 2 Dman. Some people mentioned he played on the top pairing. You interpreted that as top pairing D!

And it is very hypercritical of you to say people resort to child level banter, when your posts are riddled with them! A lot of your posts are made in order to goad people.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

Explain John Chayka, Scotty Bowman, etc etc.

It's possible to understand hockey at a deep level without having ever played a single game. This is 2018. The game is much more different now than it used to be.

So much for Dale's experience...he's so experienced that he saw no use for 750k 30-goal scorer.

Bowman is a HHoF coach, most wins as a coach, 17 Cup winning teams, and ~40 years as a NHL coach. That is one of the worst examples of “unqualified to put together a hockey team” to make your argument. Chakya also has less than nothing to his tenure to his tenure besides being the youngest GM in the league.

You can look at guys like Hunter in Toronto who does fit that analytics inclined approach but he’s been a CHL GM that cut his teeth finding and developing talent. Yet he’s “only” an AGM there. Hell I can point to the Canucks Army guys who have spent years working on their scouting models and actually testing and applying it. Rowe, Joyce, Werier had nothing of that sort yet they got the keys to run the org, which they did terribly.

 

[batting1k]

Bowman is a HHoF coach, most wins as a coach, 17 Cup winning teams, and ~40 years as a NHL coach. That is one of the worst examples of “unqualified to put together a hockey team” to make your argument. Chakya also has less than nothing to his tenure to his tenure besides being the youngest GM in the league.

You can look at guys like Hunter in Toronto who does fit that analytics inclined approach but he’s been a CHL GM that cut his teeth finding and developing talent. Yet he’s “only” an AGM there. Hell I can point to the Canucks Army guys who have spent years working on their scouting models and actually testing and applying it. Rowe, Joyce, Werier had nothing of that sort yet they got the keys to run the org, which they did terribly.

My point is Bowman never played a single NHL game. Experience isn’t everything.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

My point is Bowman never played a single NHL game. Experience isn’t everything.

Playing experience is not what I meant by experience. I meant as a hockey executive. Bowman is the coach with the most wins in NHL history, he would actually know a few things about putting together a hockey team. My point is that the people put in power by ownership were wholly unqualified to do so and it wasn’t a surprise that they failed miserably at it.

 

[SoupyFIN]

My point is Bowman never played a single NHL game. Experience isn’t everything.

The point ETF is trying to make isn't that "experience is everything", but more of that every NHL team needs someone with experience, regardless of how analytics based their approach is. Rowe was the most experienced of the group and he hadn't been involved with NHL GM:ing since the early 90s, prior to his midseason 2015-16 promotion. The rest were basically rookies.

inb4 someone brings up Tallon's resume. Yes, I know he's been far from perfect (and I've said many times that the team should've gone to a different direction after the computer boys), but two wrongs don't make a right. Outside of the Yotes (who aren't doing that well with all the praised moves Chayka made), I don't think you'll find currently a less experienced GM group, than what Rowe & co. were last year.

 

[Bure1096]

Batts, can you tell me why Viola didn't think March was a 30 goal scorer? Seems like he was the one who wanted Smith and March moved not Tallon. This would also explain Gallant's firing to a degree.

 

[batting1k]

Batts, can you tell me why Viola didn't think March was a 30 goal scorer? Seems like he was the one who wanted Smith and March moved not Tallon. This would also explain Gallant's firing to a degree.

Highly doubt Viola said “yeah, get rid of those 2 guys.” I’m convinced this was all Tallon and no one else. Let’s not look for ways to excuse Tallon for this.

 

[Chaos2k7]

I call you Mr.Strawman because that is exactly how you act with certain topics. A good example is Kulikov. No one said he was a top 2 Dman. Some people mentioned he played on the top pairing. You interpreted that as top pairing D!

And it is very hypercritical of you to say people resort to child level banter, when your posts are riddled with them! A lot of your posts are made in order to goad people.

Puma said it himself, and answered my post, explaining what he meant, lol.

You misquoting and mis-remembering, who said what is not "not having an arguement to stand on"
.
I am goading, but you and Puma mention Pysyk/Guds/VGKs all the time, lol. Goading? Do you see the hypocracy?

Sorry your fan favorites got dealt, but lets deal with reality. There are and were much bigger issues.