Pre-Game Talk: All Purpose Off Day Thread

[Shady Machine]

I think Wilson has been fine in his call ups, but I don’t for the life of me understand the hesistance of calling up TB.

I agree with @Peat that there are some trends that are concerning. At the same time Pettersson, Simon, and ZAR are all seeing steady minutes.

Agreed. Wilson has been fine. Grant has been solid. I have no issues with those players. I just can't figure out what is going on with the Pens and TB. 2 way center prospects with 4 years college and 2.5 seasons of increased AHL production should be a coach's dream.

The trend of big bodied safe players with questionable talent is a concern. We aren't in DB territory or anything, but still curious.

 

[Peat]

How doesn't it? When you say it's a "trend", I'm reading that to mean that the Penguins are intentionally picking crappy veterans over talented young guys just becuase they're veterans. When you look at the actual reasons for why those guys are getting chances, it makes perfect sense: those guys played well enough to earn it. This is especially true when it comes to Rowney (who pushed Fehr of the roster) and McKegg.

Those guys played well and spots either were available for them or became available for them, that's why they got called up. I don't know why anyone needs to try to make it any more nefarious than that. Want to know why guys like Kuhnhackl, Rust and Sheary got chances in 2016 and guys like Blueger, DiPauli and Johnson haven't gotten chances today? Because the Penguins today are stupid deep and the Penguins in 2016 were stupid shallow, it's just really that simple.

Either something is a trend, or it isn't. Either I am drinking more beer, or I'm not. Whether that's because I'm near lots of beer that tastes really good or becoming a raging alcoholic is besides the point as to whether there's a trend.

Now, is this a justifiable trend? To a certain extent, yes. Each and every promotion has been merited.

Is it a worrying trend? Again, to a certain extent, yes. Because it means Bluegers, Di Pauli et al aren't getting chances because we're stupid deep, they're getting it because they can't beat out these players. Either the management has questionable priorities and are making bad decisions, or they're not developing players well enough. Neither is good. And a long term reliance on this sort of player will stunt our ceiling (even if by tiny degrees).

 

[Fogel]

Yeah I like to see players get chances too but the circumstances aren’t favourable right now having Cullen, Grant and Sheahan.

I doubt Sully would play him at centre over those guys. He should have some good opportunities next season. We can afford to figure that out next season since he’d be on the 4th line so it’s not a big deal if it doesn’t work out.

Why would Teddy resign with the Pens? The Pens haven't exactly rewarded him for steady improvement the past few years in the AHL. He does have some say now that he is arbitration eligible.

 

[Fogel]

Is that not including production from this year? Wilson is at 18 points in 18 games this year, in the last 2 years, he has a slight production advantage per game I believe.

Either way, Blueger is definitely more talented than Wilson, I just said that being more talented doesn't make a player better. I used the example of Simon vs Pearson, I think most people would say that Simon is more talented, but not the better player.

Last year and this year
Wilson - 60P 87GP .690P/G
Blueger - 74P 108GP .685P/G

You have to go to a third decimal point to find a differential in their P/G over the last two years, basically a rounding error.

 

[Gurglesons]

Why would Teddy resign with the Pens? The Pens haven't exactly rewarded him for steady improvement the past few years in the AHL. He does have some say now that he is arbitration eligible.

I’d hope he’d resign because they basically guarantee him a spot. We honesty need TB to be our 4C for cap reasons next year to stay with our four prong attack.

 

[Peat]

Why would Teddy resign with the Pens? The Pens haven't exactly rewarded him for steady improvement the past few years in the AHL. He does have some say now that he is arbitration eligible.

Arbitration gives him no choice over where he plays next season. The only thing he could do with it is try and force the highest possible contract with it and that won't go well with no NHL numbers at all.

So as long as the Pens want to bring him back and qualify him, his choice is to resign with us or leave the American professional system altogether. His call. The latter wouldn't utterly surprise me, but the former is very clearly a big incentive to resign and it is what should be expected.

I’d hope he’d resign because they basically guarantee him a spot. We honesty need TB to be our 4C for cap reasons next year to stay with our four prong attack.

Resign Grant, get a Jooris, play Dea, promote Lafferty ahead with him... there's options enough to be no guarantee.

 

[Fogel]

If they don't give him a game this year, I think that guarantee is going to ring a bit hollow.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

But what about the intangibles???

He’s too busy doing talented things instead of hitting people 3 seconds after the puck is gone and grinding like coal miners...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Either something is a trend, or it isn't. Either I am drinking more beer, or I'm not. Whether that's because I'm near lots of beer that tastes really good or becoming a raging alcoholic is besides the point as to whether there's a trend.

Now, is this a justifiable trend? To a certain extent, yes. Each and every promotion has been merited.

Is it a worrying trend? Again, to a certain extent, yes. Because it means Bluegers, Di Pauli et al aren't getting chances because we're stupid deep, they're getting it because they can't beat out these players. Either the management has questionable priorities and are making bad decisions, or they're not developing players well enough. Neither is good. And a long term reliance on this sort of player will stunt our ceiling (even if by tiny degrees).

Is the trend "recalling players who are playing well" or "recalling old veterans over young guys"? Why did McKegg start last year over Blueger? Because McKegg had a fantastic training camp, saying anything else is pure revisionist history. Why did Rowney play for the Penguins as long as he did? Because he had 2 really strong years with WBS and basically forced the Penguins to trade Fehr. When the team starts playing scrubs like Glass and Adams over talented young guys, then I'll be concerned. But the Penguins have neither any Glass and Adams types of players or talented young guys in positions of open spots. If guys perform like Glass and Adams under Sullivan, they don't stay on the team.

People just cherrypick examples where it is true but ignore situations where it's not, to blow up a nothing problem into something. I really feel like this website has a serious problem with confirmation bias. They'll make some asinine conclusion based on an overreaction, and ignore all things that prove it false and only focus on the stuff that proves it to be true. The whole idea that the team has somehow turned away from youth is a textbook example of this. ZAR, Simon, Riikola and Pettersson? Those guys don't matter, this team doesn't like playing young guys because Sullivan doesn't like Sprong or the team isn't calling up Blueger. I can't wait to see in 2 years when people are going to argue that playing DeSmith over Jarry this year is an example for how the Penguins were favoring veterans over young guys.

People on this site constantly attribute decisions they don't like as a symptom of a bigger problem, it happens literally all of the time. Even you did it in your post. A crazy thought: maybe Wilson got called up because he's the most logical replacement for ZAR on the roster and they're rewarding a journeyman veteran who has played well this year. Why can't it be that simple, why does there always have to be some nefarious situation behind every decision that people here don't like? Remember when people were complaining about ZAR and/or Simon playing above Sprong? That wasn't "the Penguins don't trust young players anymore", that's "the Penguins don't trust the young guy I like over the other young guys". Yet people still screeched about how Sprong's usage shows that Sullivan doesn't trust young guys anymore.

 

[TKalltheTime]

Just ran into Riley Sheahan along the beach in Santa Monica while I was cycling.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Okay. I guess we will have to wait until Blueger is 27 and tearing up the AHL before he deserves his promotion.

It's not at all uncommon for career NHL tweeners to produce more in the AHL than higher caliber prospects. Then those younger guys are elevated to the NHL and out perform the Wilsons of the NHL.

The reality is Wilson's AHL production has produced nearly nothing in the NHL. Blueger's AHL production might do the same, but I'd bet against it since he has a higher talent level that translates better to a more talented league.

No, Blueger will deserve his promotion as soon as there is a spot for him. There isn't a spot for him right now. I don't know why it has to be any more complicated than that. Sure, you could theoretically move Cullen to the wing and scratch Grant, but Cullen is your 4C as long as you're healthy and Grant has played well enough to warrant a spot every night this year. Blueger's play has completely warranted him to get a chance in the NHL, there just isn't a spot for him unless Cullen and Sheahan get hurt. That's just the position he's in. Wilson was called up because he's by far the most logical replacement for ZAR and he had a decent stint in the NHL already this year.

 

[Gurglesons]

Is the trend "recalling players who are playing well" or "recalling old veterans over young guys"? Why did McKegg start last year over Blueger? Because McKegg had a fantastic training camp, saying anything else is pure revisionist history. Why did Rowney play for the Penguins as long as he did? Because he had 2 really strong years with WBS and basically forced the Penguins to trade Fehr. When the team starts playing scrubs like Glass and Adams over talented young guys, then I'll be concerned. But the Penguins have neither any Glass and Adams types of players or talented young guys in positions of open spots. If guys perform like Glass and Adams under Sullivan, they don't stay on the team.

People just cherrypick examples where it is true but ignore situations where it's not, to blow up a nothing problem into something. I really feel like this website has a serious problem with confirmation bias. They'll make some asinine conclusion based on an overreaction, and ignore all things that prove it false and only focus on the stuff that proves it to be true. The whole idea that the team has somehow turned away from youth is a textbook example of this. ZAR, Simon, Riikola and Pettersson? Those guys don't matter, this team doesn't like playing young guys because Sullivan doesn't like Sprong or the team isn't calling up Blueger. I can't wait to see in 2 years when people are going to argue that playing DeSmith over Jarry this year is an example for how the Penguins were favoring veterans over young guys.

People on this site constantly attribute decisions they don't like as a symptom of a bigger problem, it happens literally all of the time. Even you did it in your post. A crazy thought: maybe Wilson got called up because he's the most logical replacement for ZAR on the roster and they're rewarding a journeyman veteran who has played well this year. Why can't it be that simple, why does there always have to be some nefarious situation behind every decision that people here don't like? Remember when people were complaining about ZAR and/or Simon playing above Sprong? That wasn't "the Penguins don't trust young players anymore", that's "the Penguins don't trust the young guy I like over the other young guys". Yet people still screeched about how Sprong's usage shows that Sullivan doesn't trust young guys anymore.

I think you’re taking Peat’s comments way overboard.

They tendency to play the safe player over the young player is something we’ve seen for a couple years now and it is slightly worrying.

 

[Andy99]

Just ran into Riley Sheahan along the beach in Santa Monica while I was cycling.

I thought they had a 1 pm PT practice today in Anaheim, or maybe it’s at Staples...either way, RS is sloughing off...

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Just ran into Riley Sheahan along the beach in Santa Monica while I was cycling.

Oh dear, I hope he's okay!

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think you’re taking Peat’s comments way overboard.

They tendency to play the safe player over the young player is something we’ve seen for a couple years now and it is slightly worrying.

It's not just his comment, a ton of people have been saying stuff like this for a while. I know you can't deny that, because you argued against the same kind of comments that I'm referring to in that post.

I don't think the Penguins have a habit of picking a veteran over a young player, I think the Penguins just go with the best player at that time according to WBS's coach. They seem to care more about who's playing well right now than who has the highest potential to help them. Is that the right call? They haven't gotten too many of these calls wrong, so I'm not sure you can say it's the wrong call. It has just shifted from their "best players" being guys like Rust and Guentzel to being guys like Rowney and ZAR in recent years.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's not just his comment, a ton of people have been saying stuff like this for a while. I know you can't deny that, because you argued against the same kind of comments that I'm referring to in that post.

I don't think the Penguins have a habit of picking a veteran over a young player, I think the Penguins just go with the best player at that time according to WBS's coach. They seem to care more about who's playing well right now than who has the highest potential to help them. Is that the right call? They haven't gotten too many of these calls wrong, so I'm not sure you can say it's the wrong call. It has just shifted from their "best players" being guys like Rust and Guentzel to being guys like Rowney and ZAR.

And I think we understand that, but also we need to notice that they are tending to fill out some of their bottom six roles with big bodied, unskilled players when they have other options that they could use.

That being said. Our top nine is pretty set and I don’t see an internal options that are better than we have so I get your point.

 

[Gurglesons]

I thought they had a 1 pm PT practice today in Anaheim, or maybe it’s at Staples...either way, RS is sloughing off...

Pulling a Brassard.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Is the trend "recalling players who are playing well" or "recalling old veterans over young guys"? Why did McKegg start last year over Blueger? Because McKegg had a fantastic training camp, saying anything else is pure revisionist history. Why did Rowney play for the Penguins as long as he did? Because he had 2 really strong years with WBS and basically forced the Penguins to trade Fehr. When the team starts playing scrubs like Glass and Adams over talented young guys, then I'll be concerned. But the Penguins have neither any Glass and Adams types of players or talented young guys in positions of open spots. If guys perform like Glass and Adams under Sullivan, they don't stay on the team.

People just cherrypick examples where it is true but ignore situations where it's not, to blow up a nothing problem into something. I really feel like this website has a serious problem with confirmation bias. They'll make some asinine conclusion based on an overreaction, and ignore all things that prove it false and only focus on the stuff that proves it to be true. The whole idea that the team has somehow turned away from youth is a textbook example of this. ZAR, Simon, Riikola and Pettersson? Those guys don't matter, this team doesn't like playing young guys because Sullivan doesn't like Sprong or the team isn't calling up Blueger. I can't wait to see in 2 years when people are going to argue that playing DeSmith over Jarry this year is an example for how the Penguins were favoring veterans over young guys.

People on this site constantly attribute decisions they don't like as a symptom of a bigger problem, it happens literally all of the time. Even you did it in your post. A crazy thought: maybe Wilson got called up because he's the most logical replacement for ZAR on the roster and they're rewarding a journeyman veteran who has played well this year. Why can't it be that simple, why does there always have to be some nefarious situation behind every decision that people here don't like? Remember when people were complaining about ZAR and/or Simon playing above Sprong? That wasn't "the Penguins don't trust young players anymore", that's "the Penguins don't trust the young guy I like over the other young guys". Yet people still screeched about how Sprong's usage shows that Sullivan doesn't trust young guys anymore.

TB is as much a vet as Wilson, so that’s kind of a misnomer.

They have both been with the Baby Pens for the same amount of time. TB is just as much a vet and leader in WBS as Wilson.

Wilson is simply up because the Pens Brass have it in their heads they want more physicality. Exactly why ZAR is up also without having to put in any real development time in the A.

We’ve had this discussion before so not sure why you think it’s something else. I mean, TB can skate circles around those two and is clearly more talented. The Pens have also switched all of their pivots save the two big guys, to wing at various points this year. TB can play the wing just fine when need be, so again, just an excuse.

So no, it’s not something nefarious, just something silly. TB is definitely getting a raw deal, he’s admittedly frustrated, and I don’t blame him when he sees plodding coal miners go up while he gets passed over.

 

[Empoleon8771]

TB is as much a vet as Wilson, so that’s kind of a misnomer.

They have both been with the Baby Pens for the same amount of time. TB is just as much a vet and leader in WBS as Wilson.

Wilson is simply up because the Pens Brass have it in their heads they want more physicality. Exactly why ZAR is up also without having to put in any real development time in the A.

We’ve had this discussion before so not sure why you think it’s something else. I mean, TB can skate circles around those two and is clearly more talented. The Pens have also switched all of their pivots save the two big guys, to wing at various points this year. TB can play the wing just fine when need be, so again, just an excuse.

So no, it’s not something nefarious, just something silly. TB is definitely getting a raw deal, he’s admittedly frustrated, and I don’t blame him when he sees plodding coal miners go up while he gets passed over.

You should tell that to the people saying it's because Sullivan doesn't like young players

My "nefarious" comment was more so people saying that the Penguins don't trust young guys, and are intentionally picking veterans over young guys just because they're veterans. It makes perfect sense why they're calling up Wilson over Blueger. People in here just want to make it a situation of "they're picking veterans over young guys" to complain that the young guy they like isn't getting a chance that they want them to get. ZAR is a physical player and has been very effective for them this year, and he got hurt last game. The logical replacement for him is Wilson, because brings a similar amount of physicality and toughness. I don't know why it has to be anything more than that.

I don't think it's only them wanting physicality though, it's that they have plenty of what Blueger provides already and don't have any physicality in the bottom-6 without ZAR in the lineup. If Cullen and Sheahan would get hurt, I'd be surprised for Blueger to not get called up, but when only ZAR gets hurt? Why call up Blueger when you already have Cullen, Grant and Sheahan who can do the same things Blueger does?

 

[Andy99]

For those predicting a short turnaround for Horny, bad news, boo hoo...and ZAR is obviously not on the ice as well

 

[Gurglesons]

For those predicting a short turnaround for Horny, bad news, boo hoo...and ZAR is obviously not on the ice as well

Hm. Wonder what we see.

Probably Pearson - Brassard - Grant.

 

[Krispy]

Hopefully Teddy gets out of this organization ASAP.

 

[wheelz87]

My issue lies between, I suppose, I have no problems at all with ZAR. Ideally he’s a 3rd/4th liner, maybe gets some shifts elsewhere. The hate on him is dumb. The guy is hardly ‘skilled’ but he’s capable of making an impact. Garrett Wilson... I just, what is it? What is the obsession within the organization.. He can play a gritty game? He has ZERO hockey ability. Choosing him over TB is inexcusable. Has Wilson had any memorable hits this year? I mean the guy is slow, unskilled. Like what is his redeeming trait? I’m just gonna pull a name. Bobby Farnham. The guy had no hockey ability either. But he was a pest. He worked his ass off and let you know he was out there. He did more in one shift than I’ve seen out of Wilson in however many games.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Hm. Wonder what we see.

Probably Pearson - Brassard - Grant.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Grant with Geno either. If Horny is only out for a game it would keep the lines largely intact, and give Brass stability with his linemates.

 

[Andy99]

Hm. Wonder what we see.

Probably Pearson - Brassard - Grant.

Good lord I hope not...if Horny’s not playing, then we’re missing two RW players, and I think they gotta move Simon over there....no way you can play either Grant or Wilson in the top 9...


Jake-Sid-Rust
Pearson/Sheahan-G-Simon
Pearson/Sheahan-Brass-Phil
Grant-Cullen-Wilson