Pre-Game Talk: All Purpose Off Day Thread

[Empoleon8771]

Talent.

That talent bonus hasn't translated into production in the AHL, though. Just being more talented doesn't make one player better than another player.

This isn't me saying that Wilson is better than Blueger, it's saying that play style of one player doesn't make them better than another player who is a different type of player. Simon isn't better than say Pearson just because Simon is more skilled than Pearson is.

Who says we are fully healthy come playoff time? That was our problem last year and had nobody to pick up the scoring to help the first line.

The amount of injuries it would require for Blueger to get into the lineup basically means that he's not getting into the lineup at any point. They don't have to be "fully healthy" for them to be playing 12 better players than him.

Thats why you give younger players a chance in the reg season to see what you have in them. Thats what happened with Rust and Sheary and it paid off.

No, they gave those young guys spots because their depth was trash in 2015. They are a very deep team nowadays, guys like Rust and Sheary wouldn't have gotten the chances this year that they got in 2015.

This isn't really about Blueger as it is becoming a trend that the Pens are going away from what worked in those cup runs.

No, you just don't like the young guys that they're playing. This team still relies on young talent in guys like ZAR, Simon, Riikola and Pettersson. Just because a guy you like isn't getting that same chance doesn't mean the Penguins are "getting away from what worked".

So what happens when Angello is ready. Bellerive and Hallander get passed up for years over guys like Grant, Kuhn, Wilson, etc?

So you're creating a boogeyman scenario that isn't at all based in reality to complain? Just so we're clear here.

 

[Peat]

You know Simon, ZAR and De Smith are all up from the AHL and doing well. Riikola never had to go there and Pettersson is another young guy so I don’t see us as having moved away from it because of one call up.

But this isn't one call up. Rowney, McKegg, Wilson... over the past couple of seasons, the bottom 6 depth of talented (or semi-talented) kids has been replaced with experienced AHL guys with very little offensive skill, who move on to be replaced by others. With a particular emphasis on size. It is beginning to become a trend.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I really don't think this is a huge injustice or anything. I would just like to see TB get some games this year for a few reasons:

1.The guy has earned it.
2.He's one of the only center prospects they actually are keeping at center and therefore has a good shot at filling an important role in the NHL.
3. We will have a lot of turnover at center this offseason and I'd like to see TB get some games in the NHL to see how he does before next season
4.For his continued development, you need to play in the dance to know what it's like and what you need to work on

Yeah I like to see players get chances too but the circumstances aren’t favourable right now having Cullen, Grant and Sheahan.

I doubt Sully would play him at centre over those guys. He should have some good opportunities next season. We can afford to figure that out next season since he’d be on the 4th line so it’s not a big deal if it doesn’t work out.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But this isn't one call up. Rowney, McKegg, Wilson... over the past couple of seasons, the bottom 6 depth of talented (or semi-talented) kids has been replaced with experienced AHL guys with very little offensive skill, who move on to be replaced by others. With a particular emphasis on size. It is beginning to become a trend.

No, it's the Penguins rewarding players who have done well in the AHL or had strong training camps. Rowney was a guy who earned a NHL contract with his play in WBS, and put up a .77 PPG in his last 2 years in the AHL. He's also doing well in Anaheim this year. McKegg earned his way onto the roster by having a really strong training camp. Wilson has earned his call-up by being a PPG player in the AHL this year, plus he's the logical guy to replace ZAR.

The Penguins have played more experienced AHLers over more talented young guys in the NHL because their more experienced AHLers have been overall better than those young talented guys. It's not a trend, it's that Rowney, McKegg and Wilson earned their NHL chances.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

You know Simon, ZAR and De Smith are all up from the AHL and doing well. Riikola never had to go there and Pettersson is another young guy so I don’t see us as having moved away from it because of one call up.

Riikola is in due to injury..we all know hed be out if not. Even took half the year for them to finally insert him in the lineup.

Not about just one call up, weve had injuries all year and Wilson/Dea were the ones called up. Guys with no future here when Id like to see if one of our top prospects can make a Guentzel like impact...A Rust/Sheary impact. We dont know until they get a shot. Rust surprised everyone.

 

[EightyOne]

Lol but Empo, Sprong was better than all those guys in the AHL and you hated him!

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

No, it's the Penguins rewarding players who have done well in the AHL or had strong training camps. Rowney was a guy who earned a NHL contract with his play in WBS, and put up a .77 PPG in his last 2 years in the AHL. He's also doing well in Anaheim this year. McKegg earned his way onto the roster by having a really strong training camp. Wilson has earned his call-up by being a PPG player in the AHL this year, plus he's the logical guy to replace ZAR.

Good Lord.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Lol but Empo, Sprong was better than all those guys in the AHL and you hated him!

Hey, I thought Sprong deserved a spot everyday on the 4th line to start the year. He just sucked in that role and was passed by better players.

Good Lord.

Sorry facts don't agree with your sky is falling scenario? I don't know what to tell you. Do you want to go dig up the posts praising McKegg in October of 2017?

 

[Peat]

No, it's the Penguins rewarding players who have done well in the AHL or had strong training camps. Rowney was a guy who earned a NHL contract with his play in WBS, and put up a .77 PPG in his last 2 years in the AHL. He's also doing well in Anaheim this year. McKegg earned his way onto the roster by having a really strong training camp. Wilson has earned his call-up by being a PPG player in the AHL this year, plus he's the logical guy to replace ZAR.

Good grief. The potential reasons has nothing to do with whether its a trend.

Yeah I like to see players get chances too but the circumstances aren’t favourable right now having Cullen, Grant and Sheahan.

I doubt Sully would play him at centre over those guys. He should have some good opportunities next season. We can afford to figure that out next season since he’d be on the 4th line so it’s not a big deal if it doesn’t work out.

We could have afforded to do it this season, but instead signed a million centres. Any reason Rutherford won't do the same again?

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Lol but Empo, Sprong was better than all those guys in the AHL and you hated him!

His " reward" was he got to join the pre skate warm-up for two games against the Caps.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Good grief. The potential reasons has nothing to do with whether its a trend.

How doesn't it? When you say it's a "trend", I'm reading that to mean that the Penguins are intentionally picking crappy veterans over talented young guys just becuase they're veterans. When you look at the actual reasons for why those guys are getting chances, it makes perfect sense: those guys played well enough to earn it. This is especially true when it comes to Rowney (who pushed Fehr of the roster) and McKegg.

Those guys played well and spots either were available for them or became available for them, that's why they got called up. I don't know why anyone needs to try to make it any more nefarious than that. Want to know why guys like Kuhnhackl, Rust and Sheary got chances in 2016 and guys like Blueger, DiPauli and Johnson haven't gotten chances today? Because the Penguins today are stupid deep and the Penguins in 2016 were stupid shallow, it's just really that simple.

 

[Bingo71]

Talent.

But what about the intangibles???

 

[Shady Machine]

That talent bonus hasn't translated into production in the AHL, though. Just being more talented doesn't make one player better than another player.

Last I checked 0.61 PPG is better than 0.51. Factor in positional importance and yeah, I'd say there is a case to be made that Blueger's talent is higher than Wilson.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Last I checked 0.61 PPG is better than 0.51. Factor in positional importance and yeah, I'd say there is a case to be made that Blueger's talent is higher than Wilson.

Is that not including production from this year? Wilson is at 18 points in 18 games this year, in the last 2 years, he has a slight production advantage per game I believe.

Either way, Blueger is definitely more talented than Wilson, I just said that being more talented doesn't make a player better. I used the example of Simon vs Pearson, I think most people would say that Simon is more talented, but not the better player.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Last I checked 0.61 PPG is better than 0.51. Factor in positional importance and yeah, I'd say there is a case to be made that Blueger's talent is higher than Wilson.

He's the 8th center on the depth chart.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah I like to see players get chances too but the circumstances aren’t favourable right now having Cullen, Grant and Sheahan.

I doubt Sully would play him at centre over those guys. He should have some good opportunities next season. We can afford to figure that out next season since he’d be on the 4th line so it’s not a big deal if it doesn’t work out.

I doubt he would either, although it doesn't mean he shouldn't.

 

[Shady Machine]

Is that not including production from this year? Wilson is at 18 points in 18 games this year, in the last 2 years, he has a slight production advantage per game.

It's including their AHL careers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's including their AHL careers.

I was just looking at their last 2 years when I made that comment, because that's most relevant for who's better now.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That talent bonus hasn't translated into production in the AHL, though. Just being more talented doesn't make one player better than another player.

This isn't me saying that Wilson is better than Blueger, it's saying that play style of one player doesn't make them better than another player who is a different type of player. Simon isn't better than say Pearson just because Simon is more skilled than Pearson is.



The amount of injuries it would require for Blueger to get into the lineup basically means that he's not getting into the lineup at any point. They don't have to be "fully healthy" for them to be playing 12 better players than him.



No, they gave those young guys spots because their depth was trash in 2015. They are a very deep team nowadays, guys like Rust and Sheary wouldn't have gotten the chances this year that they got in 2015.



No, you just don't like the young guys that they're playing. This team still relies on young talent in guys like ZAR, Simon, Riikola and Pettersson. Just because a guy you like isn't getting that same chance doesn't mean the Penguins are "getting away from what worked".



So you're creating a boogeyman scenario that isn't at all based in reality to complain? Just so we're clear here.

I’m pretty confident TB will score more than 2 points in 40 games, because.... talent.

 

[Shady Machine]

I was just looking at their last 2 years when I made that comment, because that's most relevant for who's better now.

Okay. I guess we will have to wait until Blueger is 27 and tearing up the AHL before he deserves his promotion.

It's not at all uncommon for career NHL tweeners to produce more in the AHL than higher caliber prospects. Then those younger guys are elevated to the NHL and out perform the Wilsons of the NHL.

The reality is Wilson's AHL production has produced nearly nothing in the NHL. Blueger's AHL production might do the same, but I'd bet against it since he has a higher talent level that translates better to a more talented league.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Sprong blew away the competition in WBS last year. We even had an injury to ZAR in the playoffs. Yet guys like kuhn and Rowney were still in the lineup doing nothing. We were a goal away from any of those losses to the caps...we needed someone to step up besides that 1st line and it didnt happen.

They werent stupid deep last year.

And yeah Sprong isnt doing much of anything right now but using the example of a player who was dominating the AHL at the time but didnt get a chance when there was a need. Guy was riding a hot streak..who knows..maybe he comes in and gets a goal or two and is that difference in those games we lost. Maybe it gets others going. Sure wasnt happening with the likes of Kuhn and Rowney. Maybe it wouldnt have happened with Sprong either...point was they didnt even try.

And we are seeing that this year..certain types being called up(even Dea who we got back off waivers was put in ) over others with more talent.

 

[The Old Master]

just bringing up an oldie for future reference... https://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-hughes-stays-ahead-of-kakko-after-world-juniors-1.1237475

 

[Gurglesons]

Okay. I guess we will have to wait until Blueger is 27 and tearing up the AHL before he deserves his promotion.

It's not at all uncommon for career NHL tweeners to produce more in the AHL than higher caliber prospects. Then those younger guys are elevated to the NHL and out perform the Wilsons of the NHL.

The reality is Wilson's AHL production has produced nearly nothing in the NHL. Blueger's AHL production might do the same, but I'd bet against it since he has a higher talent level that translates better to a more talented league.

I think Wilson has been fine in his call ups, but I don’t for the life of me understand the hesistance of calling up TB.

I agree with @Peat that there are some trends that are concerning. At the same time Pettersson, Simon, and ZAR are all seeing steady minutes.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Good grief. The potential reasons has nothing to do with whether its a trend.



We could have afforded to do it this season, but instead signed a million centres. Any reason Rutherford won't do the same again?

Doesn’t mean he will.

He had cap space to sign Sheahan to play on the 4th line and gave flexibility if Brassard wasn’t working out at 3C. Everyone loves Cullen and at league minimum is a no brainer. Grant put up 15 goal, 30 point pace last season and is a big strong player who signed for league minimum.

Cullen, Sheahan and Brassard aren’t coming back. I’d still like to bring Grant back though.

TB seems like he’d be a good replacement for Cullen and will be cheap. He’s not going to play this season though and I think it’s fair enough or don’t think it’s a big deal at all so I’ll shut up about it

 

[Shady Machine]

Sprong blew away the competition in WBS last year. We even had an injury to ZAR in the playoffs. Yet guys like kuhn and Rowney were still in the lineup doing nothing. We were a goal away from any of those losses to the caps...we needed someone to step up besides that 1st line and it didnt happen.

They werent stupid deep last year.

And yeah Sprong isnt doing much of anything right now but using the example of a player who was dominating the AHL at the time but didnt get a chance when there was a need. Guy was riding a hot streak..who knows..maybe he comes in and gets a goal or two and is that difference in those games we lost. Maybe it gets others going. Sure wasnt happening with the likes of Kuhn and Rowney. Maybe it wouldnt have happened with Sprong either...point was they didnt even try.

And we are seeing that this year..certain types being called up(even Dea who we got back off waivers was put in ) over others with more talent.

That's fair, but the difference between he and TB that is relevant to me is that TB actually is a solid 2 way player and projects well in a bottom 6 role. Sprong was always better suited for a top 6 / PP role. Those types of players take time to be trusted by coaches unless they are elite talents.

TB getting passed over by scrubs (relative term) is more egregious in my opinion because TB could take the same role and do well (in my opinion).