ALL PURPOSE NBA expansion thread

[Cynicaps]

Meanwhile (SARCASM VOICE) watch the Grizzlies end up in Seattle and make these other scenarios moot.

It frankly makes more sense than an expansion anyway.

It would, so would New Orleans given how that move would be poetic given how not letting Clay Bennett buy the Hornets to keep them in OKC permanently began this mess. I still think that the fallout from the Sonics soured the NBA on relocation permanently and that a city like Memphis losing their sole pro team, a basket case as it is, still would be a bad look.

As much as having the Grizzlies become Sonics 2.0 with Ja Morant would balance out losing KD after his rookie year, I just don't see it happening. The NBA seems against relocation even when it would be best such as NO/Memphis or had Ballmer been cleared to buy and move the Kings.

 

[Cynicaps]

No one NEEDS it. But the leagues want them because there's corporate money there. No one cares that the average fan seats might not be full. Premium seating is 40% or more of ticket revenue, and only 10-15% of the capacity. In Vegas, the suites will be sold out.

Has a team ever entered a market solely off of corporate support with the idea that if they had zero regular fans it would still be viable? The only case I can think of was when Bakersfield had a D-League team and they went from the Condors arena to their practice facility which became an STH-only lounge and that wasn't sustainable long-term.

Vegas can have all the corporate money, but there is still the issue that glutting a market never works. Atlanta in the 60s-70's going from nothing to everything backfired, so did Miami in the late 80s-early 90s. And those were much larger markets. Vegas has to have a ceiling of some sort, does it?

 

[HisIceness]

I might be the only person on the planet that doesn't care about a return of the Sonics. Even as a kid in the 90's I thought those uniforms were ugly (both the space needle and the one before that). That and the way their fans acted towards Sacramento Kings fans before Ranadive never sat well with me, and the guy behind Sonicsgate with his "That's the dangerous precedent the NBA has set" interview on ESPN around that time even though relocation of teams had happened before the Sonics.

As for Vegas, I guess eventually is was meant to be. It's probably forgotten now but the league did have their all-star game there in 2007 as sort of an avenue to see if LV would be a good future market for a franchise. Eventually something was going to come of that weekend.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Has a team ever entered a market solely off of corporate support with the idea that if they had zero regular fans it would still be viable? The only case I can think of was when Bakersfield had a D-League team and they went from the Condors arena to their practice facility which became an STH-only lounge and that wasn't sustainable long-term.

Vegas can have all the corporate money, but there is still the issue that glutting a market never works. Atlanta in the 60s-70's going from nothing to everything backfired, so did Miami in the late 80s-early 90s. And those were much larger markets. Vegas has to have a ceiling of some sort, does it?

Yea, they are called Los Angeles Chargers.

 

[oknazevad]

If MLB is smart, they will adopt a bylaw that will require ALL new stadiums in the future to be built with some sort of roof, with existing open-air structures grandfathered. The aim is to one day eliminate rainouts (and in some markets, snowouts), though postponements could still occur due to hurricanes in some markets, and for non-weather related reasons (like a death in an organization or a mass postponement of games due to a national emergency like on 9/11/2001).

Again. No. More than that: f*** no. Baseball is an outdoor sport to be played under a sunny blue sky or a wonderful clear night. Sure, there are markets where that's not entirely practical; but even with an open roof those ballparks lack a certain something. Completely sterilizing in some boneheaded pursuit of eliminating something that has not ever has been an actual problem it takes away its character.

In the future, when the NBA expands to 36 teams long after going to 32, I could see the Southeast Division adding teams in Birmingham and Louisville which would move Washington back into the Atlantic with the other Northeastern teams, then Phoenix would move back into the Pacific, and Vancouver and Calgary join with the other Mountain Division teams to re-form the Northwest Division. In order to appeal to fans from Edmonton and by extension all of Alberta, the Calgary team would use "Alberta" as its geographic identifier.

None of that is going to happen. Please rejoin reality and stop with the fantasy hijacking of actual discussions nonsense.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Other people have proposed a 36-team NBA too.

 

[Cynicaps]

Yea, they are called Los Angeles Chargers.

I think there is a little bit of a difference between Dean Spanos' own stupidity - and the Chargers leaving San Diego needs to be up there with the Dodgers, Colts, Browns, and Sonics on the list of bad relocations - and a league willingly expanding into that situation. Usually teams enter markets with proven fan support and the NBA ceded a boat they could've easily gotten on to the NHL.

Also, there is a bit of a difference between the Chargers ditching a decent sized market to be second fiddle in a far larger market to Vegas being quite small population wise and having a ceiling due to geography and water rights and NBA specific would have a microscopic TV territory.

 

[Voight]

It would, so would New Orleans given how that move would be poetic given how not letting Clay Bennett buy the Hornets to keep them in OKC permanently began this mess. I still think that the fallout from the Sonics soured the NBA on relocation permanently and that a city like Memphis losing their sole pro team, a basket case as it is, still would be a bad look.

As much as having the Grizzlies become Sonics 2.0 with Ja Morant would balance out losing KD after his rookie year, I just don't see it happening. The NBA seems against relocation even when it would be best such as NO/Memphis or had Ballmer been cleared to buy and move the Kings.

There was also Chris Hansen before Ballmer who was going to buy the Kings and move them to Seattle. He had an arena plan ready to go but IIRC Seattle city council shot it down.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

I think there is a little bit of a difference between Dean Spanos' own stupidity - and the Chargers leaving San Diego needs to be up there with the Dodgers, Colts, Browns, and Sonics on the list of bad relocations - and a league willingly expanding into that situation. Usually teams enter markets with proven fan support and the NBA ceded a boat they could've easily gotten on to the NHL.

Also, there is a bit of a difference between the Chargers ditching a decent sized market to be second fiddle in a far larger market to Vegas being quite small population wise and having a ceiling due to geography and water rights and NBA specific would have a microscopic TV territory.

The Dodgers were a bad relocation? They left a market they were 2nd fiddle in to own the 2nd biggest market in the country and brought their arch rival west with them.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I think there is a little bit of a difference between Dean Spanos' own stupidity - and the Chargers leaving San Diego needs to be up there with the Dodgers, Colts, Browns, and Sonics on the list of bad relocations - and a league willingly expanding into that situation. Usually teams enter markets with proven fan support and the NBA ceded a boat they could've easily gotten on to the NHL.

Also, there is a bit of a difference between the Chargers ditching a decent sized market to be second fiddle in a far larger market to Vegas being quite small population wise and having a ceiling due to geography and water rights and NBA specific would have a microscopic TV territory.

I mean you can call Spanos stupid but Chargers value increased after they moved to LA.

 

[StreetHawk]

There was also Chris Hansen before Ballmer who was going to buy the Kings and move them to Seattle. He had an arena plan ready to go but IIRC Seattle city council shot it down.

City owned the Key arena. But they could always have sold the land to a developer or something to build something else in that site.

There was definitely some opposition to a Sonics arena down by where the Hawks and Mariners played. Something about closing a city street and traffic we’re a couple of concerns.

For all the tech money in Seattle even back in 2008, still surprised no one stepped up to buy the sonics to keep them in town. But that was also an era of publicly funded arenas and Seattle wasn’t going to pay for it all.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I think there is a little bit of a difference between Dean Spanos' own stupidity - and the Chargers leaving San Diego needs to be up there with the Dodgers, Colts, Browns, and Sonics on the list of bad relocations - and a league willingly expanding into that situation. Usually teams enter markets with proven fan support and the NBA ceded a boat they could've easily gotten on to the NHL.

Also, there is a bit of a difference between the Chargers ditching a decent sized market to be second fiddle in a far larger market to Vegas being quite small population wise and having a ceiling due to geography and water rights and NBA specific would have a microscopic TV territory.

As a general LA hater, I’ve literally never heard the Dodgers relocation discussed as a bad move except among the increasingly rare New York Dodgers/Giants fans. And for how much fight it caused, the Browns to Baltimore relocation proved to be incredibly successful, as has the Colts to Indy move over the years. The only one really comparable is OKC, and that’s a case of a wealthy new owner wanting his own market team and not caring about the original market. It certainly stunk for locals, and the Bennett’s absolutely did Seattle dirty, but I wouldn’t call that a bad move either.

The Chargers relocation has been entirely unique from those scenarios, as every other team mentioned successfully found stable fanbases in their new digs, versus LAC being a permanent road draw. They’ll keep on moseying along as a not even second fiddle.

 

[Cynicaps]

As a general LA hater, I’ve literally never heard the Dodgers relocation discussed as a bad move except among the increasingly rare New York Dodgers/Giants fans. And for how much fight it caused, the Browns to Baltimore relocation proved to be incredibly successful, as has the Colts to Indy move over the years. The only one really comparable is OKC, and that’s a case of a wealthy new owner wanting his own market team and not caring about the original market. It certainly stunk for locals, and the Bennett’s absolutely did Seattle dirty, but I wouldn’t call that a bad move either.

The Chargers relocation has been entirely unique from those scenarios, as every other team mentioned successfully found stable fanbases in their new digs, versus LAC being a permanent road draw. They’ll keep on moseying along as a not even second fiddle.

The aging out of life of a lot of the bitter Dodgers/Giants fans in NYC has made their moves west seem a lot less bad - and I believe the vocalness of them made it seem worse than it was. It was a when, not if, situation of MLB moving west.

(NFL) Browns to Baltimore worked out though there is still bitterness Cleveland has towards the Ravens given how much of a dud the replacement Browns were. That Baltimore is still bitter about losing the Colts when the Colts have spent more time in Indy than Baltimore speaks volumes though check back in 20-30 years when a lot of the people who remember the Colts being there start to age out.

The Sonics situation was bad because of a lot of what happened in the background, namely that Bennett was promised the first team that ended up on the market and it just happened to be them. It makes me wonder how much worse letting him buy a Hornets team that New Orleans was and still is apathetic about would've been with the perceived "abandonment" of New Orleans post-Katrina versus the bad taste of Sonicsgate.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

He had an arena plan ready to go but IIRC Seattle city council shot it down.

Voting down Chris Hansen's arena was the one of best decision's they ever made. He was outright dismissive whenever he was asked about hockey, and the NHL was the only league that was interested in expanding to Seattle.

 

[Kane One]

The Dodgers were a bad relocation? They left a market they were 2nd fiddle in to own the 2nd biggest market in the country and brought their arch rival west with them.

The Dodgers were completely sustainable in NY. Their issue was like many other teams who moved: a new stadium. Being second fiddle was not an issue, similar to how the Mets don’t have any issues now.

The Dodgers moving to LA was a f***ing travesty for NY and shouldn’t have ever happened.

Overall for baseball, it wasn’t a bad move at all.

 

[Kane One]

The aging out of life of a lot of the bitter Dodgers/Giants fans in NYC has made their moves west seem a lot less bad - and I believe the vocalness of them made it seem worse than it was. It was a when, not if, situation of MLB moving west.

Throughout sports at the time, cities were paying for stadiums. That could have even happened in NY, but Robert Moses (I seriously suggest reading about this POS) didn’t want the stadium in Brooklyn.

 

[PCSPounder]

Voting down Chris Hansen's arena was the one of best decision's they ever made. He was outright dismissive whenever he was asked about hockey, and the NHL was the only league that was interested in expanding to Seattle.

That’s not really it.

Hansen was working with Steve Ballmer for a while. The NBA wanted Ballmer, who had the cash. They’d have found a way to get Seattle going.

But Ballmer bailed on Hansen. The NBA didn’t want Hansen. I’m pretty sure the city of Seattle humored Hansen for a while after the breakup, and the city ended up getting what they wanted with OVG. Why Ballmer and Hansen broke up is probably the story. Hansen trying to short-circuit Sacramento‘s arena effort was probably the last straw of several straws.

Throughout sports at the time, cities were paying for stadiums. That could have even happened in NY, but Robert Moses (I seriously suggest reading about this POS) didn’t want the stadium in Brooklyn.

Why would I not be surprised that Robert Moses would have it in for the team that desegregated baseball?

 

[LadyStanley]

Lakers to play 2 preseason games at T-Mobile Arena

The Los Angeles Lakers will play preseason games against the Phoenix Suns and Minnesota Timberwolves before the 2022-23 NBA season.

www.reviewjournal.com

NBA coming to Las Vegas, as Lakers will host two preseason games this fall.

 

[KevFu]

If Vegas does get MLS… I’m not sure the Lights name carries over, and I’m not sure the USL club sticks around.

There's a sizeable number of MLS expansion teams who basically consider themselves a "promoted" version of the lower level club. Chances are a Vegas MLS team would have the USL owner involved as at least a minority partner, because it's easier to cut him into ownership and retain a brand identity than to come up with new trademark-able names.

If MLB is smart, they will adopt a bylaw that will require ALL new stadiums in the future to be built with some sort of roof, with existing open-air structures grandfathered. The aim is to one day eliminate rainouts (and in some markets, snowouts)

It's really not feasible to do that. Roofs make projects about 40% more expensive. Like, $2 billion instead of $1.2 billion. And the vast majority of markets have zero need for it.

Texas, Florida, Phoenix and Vegas do. That's six teams (five that currently exist).

Out of 2430 games in 2021, 56 games were PPD for something a roof would prevent. That's 2.3%

And rainouts don't really LOSE teams money, because they're not selling out 81 games and then having to cram in TWO crowds into one date or issue refunds. Single-admission doubleheaders probably increase revenues.

 

[KevFu]

Has a team ever entered a market solely off of corporate support with the idea that if they had zero regular fans it would still be viable?

The point I've had to make in virtually every thread lately is that while no one will ever say it, exactly that is how professional sports REALLY WORKS as a business, and has been for at least two decades now.

COVID made it blatantly obvious: MLB went from 68.5 million regular season tickets sold in 2019... to ZERO in 2020.

And they still made $3.66 billion dollars. An average of $122 million per team. How many teams folded? None.

Oakland's in terrible shape because no one is coming to games? In 2021, they averaged under 8,880 fans. They lost $8.7 million, which is less money than three expendable relievers made (Diekman, Romo, Petit). They dump them, they're turning a profit.

Attendance is bad now because they didn't just dump them, they dumped Olson, Chapman, Canha, Marte, Manaea, Bassitt and Gomes as well. Fans are in revolt because they dumped $49 million in salary; They do NEED a new stadium to be a competitive franchise compared to the big spenders; but they could stay in the Coliseum for another 100 years without folding.

Other people have proposed a 36-team NBA too.

Expansion is good for the leagues, there's zero problem with the NBA or NHL having 36 teams. But the way to keep franchise fees and expansion fees growing is not to go from 30 to 36 overnight.

Add a team every 6 years, or 2 teams every 12 years and you'll stay ahead of the diminishing returns.

 

[MMC]

 

[MMC]

 

[LadyStanley]

NBA commissioner addresses rumors of expansion to Las Vegas

NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said any talk that the league is targeting Seattle and Las Vegas for expansion in 2024 “is not true.”

www.reviewjournal.com

AP story on Silver's comments.

Silver: no dates for expansion; will expand eventually. Thinks that both Seattle and Las Vegas are fine cities.

 

[OG6ix]

Vancouver deserves another shot - those fans really did get the shaft but of course it is not a media darling story because A) they did not have history (like seattle) and B) They are a Canadian city.

If anyone looks at the history of what went down they paid the expansion fee and had zero chance to succeed.

 

[StreetHawk]

Vancouver deserves another shot - those fans really did get the shaft but of course it is not a media darling story because A) they did not have history (like seattle) and B) They are a Canadian city.

If anyone looks at the history of what went down they paid the expansion fee and had zero chance to succeed.

Well, unfortunately it would require someone with billions of dollars since the price tag is going to be $2 bill usd. With the way the Aquilinis run the Canucks not sure that helps in finding business partners.