OT: All-Purpose Expos Return Speculation Topic

[Scriptor]

How did the NFL not work in Toronto? Do you mean they couldn't canvas enough support and never got to a more serious stage? I always thought the NFL would not move to any Canadian cities on account of not wanting to destroy the CFL.

Really? Why would you think that?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Pretty sure the NFL would work in Montreal.

Montrealers are big on happenings, and with only 16 games per season of the biggest major sport in the world, you can bet your silly ass that the stadium (not the big O though) will be packed night in night out.

 

[Scriptor]

Pretty sure the NFL would work in Montreal.

Montrealers are big on happenings, and with only 16 games per season of the biggest major sport in the world, you can bet your silly ass that the stadium (not the big O though) will be packed night in night out.

Same here.

 

[Laurentide]

Pretty sure the NFL would work in Montreal.

Montrealers are big on happenings, and with only 16 games per season of the biggest major sport in the world, you can bet your silly ass that the stadium (not the big O though) will be packed night in night out.

There aren't many cities in North America (outside of perhaps Jacksonville) which wouldn't or couldn't pack in a crowd for 8 home games a year. Hell, you could put a team in Fargo North Dakota or Sudbury Ontario and the place would be packed. That's the point. Every city wants the NFL which means that a) not every city is going to get it, and b) the ones that do get it will be made to pay through the nose for it. And even among those cities which are both willing and able to pay the freight, there's still more demand than supply.

And don't discount NFL-CFL relations entirely. The CFL functions as a feeder/minor league system for the NFL that it doesn't have to pay for like it did with NFL Europe. The NFL doesn't need to upset that particular apple cart by putting a team north of the border. They already have fans in Canada and they already make money off of them and have TV and radio broadcast deals with Canadian media outlets. I think they're far more interested in expanding their reach overseas to London than they are to the already over-saturated North American market.

 

[Laurentide]

MON held an exhibition game at the Big Owe in 1990 ( I was statistician for the game ) and it was a huge event. I wouldn't say it would never work out from a football fan's perspective.

I went to a pre-season game at the Big O around that time. It was New England (who were garbage at that time) versus the Steelers (who's fans will - and did - travel to see their team play) It was a good crowd but I don't recall it being a sell-out by any means. Neither were any of the NFL-approved, WLAF games featuring the Montreal Machine.

I do recall seeing Stephane Richer at the Steelers - Pats game though.

 

[kgboomer]

An NFL team in Montreal (or Canada even) in the near future...haha.

Not speaking out of ignorance (I'm a hardcore NFL fan), just baffled at such naive views presented in some earlier posts here.

My question to you is this - How much do you think a relocation franchise would cost (that's by far the cheaper option as compared to an expansion team and you also have to consider that the NFL won't expand to Canada under any circumstances as of today)? Ballpark figure?

I'll make it easier - forget about the logistical costs (arena and such). Just give me a number. I dare you.

No kidding. Pigs will fly before we see an NFL team in Montreal.

 

[Habaneros]

No kidding. Pigs will fly before we see an NFL team in Montreal.

There is talk of trying for a NBA TEAM ,playing out of Bell Centre

 

[LeHab]

I think they're far more interested in expanding their reach overseas to London than they are to the already over-saturated North American market.

Things are getting interesting as owner of Jags has made an offer to buy Wembley Stadium today.

“If you know the NFL, you know you don’t choose them they choose you,” the Jaguars and Fulham owner told the Guardian on Thursday.

He was speaking about the elite society of 32 NFL team owners who form one of the most exclusive clubs in sport, overseeing a $14bn operation. Their selectivity in who they allow to buy a franchise is legendary, as evidenced by their famous refusal of Donald Trump’s bid to buy the Buffalo Bills. Each owner must add something to their group – many of whom are part of families that have owned their teams for years. Khan’s, it seems, is in the dual lives he has planted in the US and UK.
For more than a decade the NFL has been serious about expanding globally, fearing that while it is the most lucrative league in the world its popularity does not stretch much beyond the US. Several league executives and team owners have told the Guardian in recent years they are committed to seeing whether a franchise could be placed in London full‑time.
Given that Khan – who was raised in Pakistan and the US and spends considerable time in London – also owns a precarious NFL franchise with limited resources, he has been viewed as an obvious link to make the NFL’s aspirations come true. The fact he has embraced London, committing the Jags to an annual game at Wembley, has only raised that perception.
The announcement of his £500m-plus proposal to buy Wembley stadiumimmediately sounded alarm bells that he may be looking to move the Jaguars to London, which has become a regular host of NFL games.

Khan Wembley deal would move NFL London team step closer to reality | Les Carpenter

Wiki has a good summary of efforts and challenges of setting a franchise there:

Potential London NFL franchise - Wikipedia

 

[RealityBytes]

An NFL team in Montreal (or Canada even) in the near future...haha.

Not speaking out of ignorance (I'm a hardcore NFL fan), just baffled at such naive views presented in some earlier posts here.

My question to you is this - How much do you think a relocation franchise would cost (that's by far the cheaper option as compared to an expansion team and you also have to consider that the NFL won't expand to Canada under any circumstances as of today)? Ballpark figure?

I'll make it easier - forget about the logistical costs (arena and such). Just give me a number. I dare you.

Actually that's not quite true. Definitely an NFL team won't be coming to Montreal due to market size, but when the MLSE/Bon Jovi group was one of the two potential owners on the short list for buying the Buffalo Bills, the NFL had given prior approval to MLSE to move the team to Toronto because it was within the 90 mile range a team is allowed to move without affecting other markets or needing an owners vote. If it hadn't been for the governer of New York state intervening on Buffalo's behalf with tax and stadium cost breaks to a New York buyer to keep the team in New York state, it was gone to Toronto. (Though it would have been a couple of years before the move could have been made due to stadium contract commitments.)

The Toronto area "golden horseshoe" is one of the top sports markets in North America (behind New York and LA) and the NFL had no problem going there. It's a business and going to a big market is fine for them.

 

[GoodKiwi]

Actually that's not quite true. Definitely an NFL team won't be coming to Montreal due to market size, but when the MLSE/Bon Jovi group was one of the two potential owners on the short list for buying the Buffalo Bills, the NFL had given prior approval to MLSE to move the team to Toronto because it was within the 90 mile range a team is allowed to move without affecting other markets or needing an owners vote. If it hadn't been for the governer of New York state intervening on Buffalo's behalf with tax and stadium cost breaks to a New York buyer to keep the team in New York state, it was gone to Toronto. (Though it would have been a couple of years before the move could have been made due to stadium contract commitments.)

The Toronto area "golden horseshoe" is one of the top sports markets in North America (behind New York and LA) and the NFL had no problem going there. It's a business and going to a big market is fine for them.

Which part of my post isn't?

The Bills' situation was quite unique in the sense that the upcoming lease expiration and Wilson's age created uncertainty about its future. There weren't many suitable buyers lining up for the team at the time and the NFL was desperate looking at all options. Once Pegula came into the picture things changed quickly there. But, that said, I never paid enough attention to the entire ordeal. From my vantage point it never seemed like Toronto was ever close to landing the Bills.

 

[Runner77]

Really? Why would you think that?

Vague recollection of what was said at the time, when the NFL was looking to Canadian markets as potential cities for a future expansion.

How did the NFL not work in Toronto, what was the context and when did this happen?

 

[JianYang]

Vague recollection of what was said at the time, when the NFL was looking to Canadian markets as potential cities for a future expansion.

How did the NFL not work in Toronto, what was the context and when did this happen?

I don't know if it was the nfl looking into Toronto. It felt more like Toronto wanting the nfl. I think it was Rogers who arranged for some Buffalo bills games in Toronto, when things were looking a bit cloudy on the bills future. I think their goal was ultimately to get that team moved.

Expansion wise, the nfl seemed to be interested in LA and even Mexico at the time.

 

[crosbyshow]

Mtl is not a small market. Actually it's the 16 the market in North America with 4.2 million people. Mtl has more population than cities like Denver, Pittsburgh, Seattle.

However Toronto is now huge with 6.5 million people.

 

[RealityBytes]

Which part of my post isn't?

The Bills' situation was quite unique in the sense that the upcoming lease expiration and Wilson's age created uncertainty about its future. There weren't many suitable buyers lining up for the team at the time and the NFL was desperate looking at all options. Once Pegula came into the picture things changed quickly there. But, that said, I never paid enough attention to the entire ordeal. From my vantage point it never seemed like Toronto was ever close to landing the Bills.

That the NFL won't let a team come to Canada.

BTW, Pegula was ready to drop out, and it was the governor of NY who persuaded him to stay in the race by giving him all those incentives. It was VERY close for Toronto and the Bon Jovi/MLSE group and if Pegula did drop out it was a certainty. They still could have outbid Pegula though, but they determined that once the bid got past a certain point, it wasn't financially viable/profitable for them.

 

[GoodKiwi]

That the NFL won't let a team come to Canada.

BTW, Pegula was ready to drop out, and it was the governor of NY who persuaded him to stay in the race by giving him all those incentives. It was VERY close for Toronto and the Bon Jovi/MLSE group and if Pegula did drop out it was a certainty. They still could have outbid Pegula though, but they determined that once the bid got past a certain point, it wasn't financially viable/profitable for them.

That's not quite what I stated in my original post though.

What I said was that the NFL has no appetite of placing a team in Canada right now. The logistics aren't in place, nor is there any serious interest.

Their priority over the next several years are London and Mexico. This isn't to say that the NFL is looking to expand to either in the immediate future (not for 5 years at least), but they're trying to gauge their options in those two markets before they even look at Canada being a viable option. Things, of course, can change if someone this side of the border becomes serious enough to invest a lot of dough into a stadium all of the sudden. But there has been no evidence of that, just some unfounded rumblings. Even then, if I were a betting man I'd put my money on London having a team before any Canadian cities get a sniff at one.

Let me ask you this, what percentage chance would you put on a Canadian city having an NFL franchise within the next 10 years? Is it even double digits in your view?

 

[RealityBytes]

That's not quite what I stated in my original post though.

What I said was that the NFL has no appetite of placing a team in Canada right now. The logistics aren't in place, nor is there any serious interest.

Their priority over the next several years are London and Mexico. This isn't to say that the NFL is looking to expand to either in the immediate future (not for 5 years at least), but they're trying to gauge their options in those two markets before they even look at Canada being a viable option. Things, of course, can change if someone this side of the border becomes serious enough to invest a lot of dough into a stadium all of the sudden. But there has been no evidence of that, just some unfounded rumblings. Even then, if I were a betting man I'd put my money on London having a team before any Canadian cities get a sniff at one.

Let me ask you this, what percentage chance would you put on a Canadian city having an NFL franchise within the next 10 years? Is it even double digits in your view?

You stated "you also have to consider that the NFL won't expand to Canada under any circumstances as of today" ... that statement is implying the NFL does not like Canada for some reason but that is not the case.

The NFL would expand to Canada but the Toronto area is the only place in Canada they would put an NFL team. It's the only Canadian market big enough and good enough to warrant an NFL team. The NFL had OK'd the move from Buffalo prior to the sale and they had no problem with the Bills moving to the Toronto area. With Buffalo in the same market area as Toronto as it sits now though, they won't add another team to Toronto area since it would kill the Bills. However, if the Bills were put up for sale again, and Toronto was to put a bid in again, the NFL would most likely approve the move again.

BTW, don't put your money on London England getting a team (London Ontario, which exceeds the 90 mile limit to Buffalo, has a better chance). Studies have shown that an American sport in England would only be a secondary sport and with the difficult travel and scheduling, it is such a risky business adventure, it would almost certainly fail. (Check out back issues of The Economist on this.) They had also looked at the putting more than one team in Europe to help solve some scheduling issues and problems of having just one team there, but aside from England it was even more of a bust.

Mexico City has a higher chance than Europe because of distance and time zones, but even then, it is still a risky adventure for a franchise owner adding a secondary sport to a country that already has its fans saturated with with its primary sports of soccer as well as baseball, boxing, and rodeo type sports.

My bet for the next NFL team is either St.Louis Mo, or Portland Or.

 

[Scriptor]

I went to a pre-season game at the Big O around that time. It was New England (who were garbage at that time) versus the Steelers (who's fans will - and did - travel to see their team play) It was a good crowd but I don't recall it being a sell-out by any means. Neither were any of the NFL-approved, WLAF games featuring the Montreal Machine.

I do recall seeing Stephane Richer at the Steelers - Pats game though.

That was the game and the crowd was good. No, it wasn't 55,000 fans, though. Honestly, so what? It's not like the NFL needs the physical attendance to survive. As long as the arenas are relatively full, it's a positive for the league.

 

[bsl]

Just curious if there is any buzz about the Expos coming back. I know the Oakland A's are a mess of a situation and might be a prime target. Here are a few reads just recently:

Expos investors polling Montrealers on stadium experience

Montreal Expos ownership group positioned for MLB relocation

Montreal Mayor: “We’re In” on Return of MLB

I loved the logo and it still is popular in the US and Canada:

Montreal Expos logo enjoys afterlife across Canada and U.S.

I do not live in Montreal....just more curious what the locals think.

Put them in the AL in a 35,000 seat downtown park and they would sell out half of their home games. Jays Red sox and yankees would be instant and natural rivals. None of whom expos played back then. Walk in fans on a sunny day in downtown in July? You bet.

 

[bsl]

Pretty sure the NFL would work in Montreal.

Montrealers are big on happenings, and with only 16 games per season of the biggest major sport in the world, you can bet your silly ass that the stadium (not the big O though) will be packed night in night out.

No one is going to build another 80,000 seat stade in Montreal. Get real. It's like 900 million dollars to build. Plus huge land cost. Min 1 Billion all in.. A stadium that size requires huge infrastructure. Parking, roads, on and on. You cannot build this downtown. No way.

A 35,000 small outdoor stade for Expos could be done for 500 mill. All in. Land included. Downtown. And fit in with minimal infrastructure impact.

And you can fill the small park with concerts all the time. You're not filling an 80,000 person stadium ever. Maybe once a year for U2 concerts. The idea of NFL in Montreal is a joke. Give it up.

 

[bsl]

Things are getting interesting as owner of Jags has made an offer to buy Wembley Stadium today.



Khan Wembley deal would move NFL London team step closer to reality | Les Carpenter

Wiki has a good summary of efforts and challenges of setting a franchise there:

Potential London NFL franchise - Wikipedia

NFL would fail in London massively. No one in the UK likes american foootball. Or anything else American. No one. The whole NFL culture is a joke there. No fit at all.

And They are already huge on rugby, which is a better game anyway. Stupid idea.

 

[bsl]

You stated "you also have to consider that the NFL won't expand to Canada under any circumstances as of today" ... that statement is implying the NFL does not like Canada for some reason but that is not the case.

The NFL would expand to Canada but the Toronto area is the only place in Canada they would put an NFL team. It's the only Canadian market big enough and good enough to warrant an NFL team. The NFL had OK'd the move from Buffalo prior to the sale and they had no problem with the Bills moving to the Toronto area. With Buffalo in the same market area as Toronto as it sits now though, they won't add another team to Toronto area since it would kill the Bills. However, if the Bills were put up for sale again, and Toronto was to put a bid in again, the NFL would most likely approve the move again.

BTW, don't put your money on London England getting a team (London Ontario, which exceeds the 90 mile limit to Buffalo, has a better chance). Studies have shown that an American sport in England would only be a secondary sport and with the difficult travel and scheduling, it is such a risky business adventure, it would almost certainly fail. (Check out back issues of The Economist on this.) They had also looked at the putting more than one team in Europe to help solve some scheduling issues and problems of having just one team there, but aside from England it was even more of a bust.

Mexico City has a higher chance than Europe because of distance and time zones, but even then, it is still a risky adventure for a franchise owner adding a secondary sport to a country that already has its fans saturated with with its primary sports of soccer as well as baseball, boxing, and rodeo type sports.

My bet for the next NFL team is either St.Louis Mo, or Portland Or.

Jeez. Someone else here reads the Economist. Well done.

 

[bsl]

Pretty sure the NFL would work in Montreal.

Montrealers are big on happenings, and with only 16 games per season of the biggest major sport in the world, you can bet your silly ass that the stadium (not the big O though) will be packed night in night out.[/QUOTE]
What do you fill the stadium with the other 340 nights a year?

 

[Kimota]

Pretty sure the NFL would work in Montreal.

Montrealers are big on happenings, and with only 16 games per season of the biggest major sport in the world, you can bet your silly ass that the stadium (not the big O though) will be packed night in night out.

I'm from QC but I would be there for a huge chunk of it no matter what.

 

[RealityBytes]

Jeez. Someone else here reads the Economist. Well done.

My favourite magazine, but there is so much of it to read every week though. I usually don't get to finish before another issue shows up.

 

[Scintillating10]

Found this from the past. Brings back memories from my youth.