Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[bleedblue94]

I never mentioned KK being a consistent top 6 player. Not sure why you changed what I said in to something else. I just felt he took a step up last season from his previous season.

Bc you replied to me and that was the premise of what I was talking about.

 

[bhamill]

Agree to disagree. The whole points argument used to justify what a player is is tiring. Sometimes players accumulate points from linemates, sometimes it's a hot streak, sometimes they are good players. If you watch kakko 5 years in and nothing demonstratively screams top 6 player. You hope, you see flashes, but 5 years in generally if you are still hoping. And this isn't about 20 and 93, kakko has never found consistency with anyone except occasional spurts with the kid line. Again, 5 years in and you're left just hoping it happens, but how many players in the NHL are regular top 6 players that can't effectively create anything on the rush?

I cited MORE than points, though. And points are pretty much the PRIMARY thing we judge forwards on. We can amicably disagree on what we think Kakko will (or will not) develop into, but objectively he’s already a valuable defense/possession 3rd liner at 23 who scored 40 points last year. And yes it is also about 20 and 93 when people try to say KK has had a fair shot at top six minutes. He hasn’t. He’s had a shot with two players who have not found consistency with ANY wing in YEARS. We get ZERO idea about his potential from that. It’s all good though, I don’t need everyone to see things the same way I do.

 

[bleedblue94]

I cited MORE than points, though. And points are pretty much the PRIMARY thing we judge forwards on. We can amicably disagree on what we think Kakko will (or will not) develop into, but objectively he’s already a valuable defense/possession 3rd liner at 23 who scored 40 points last year. And yes it is also about 20 and 93 when people try to say KK has had a fair shot at top six minutes. He hasn’t. He’s had a shot with two players who have not found consistency with ANY wing in YEARS. We get ZERO idea about his potential from that. It’s all good though, I don’t need everyone to see things the same way I do.

You cited excellent d and possession. I'm sorry but those two things don't make a player a top 6 staple. Creating offense is what leads to top 6 roles. Kakko just doesn't create anything at this level 5 years in. He is a commentary player and there is still value in that, but top 6 guys do not literally kill every rush opportunity when the puck lands on their stick, nor do they just endlessly hold the puck on the boards. Possession is a great thing if you actually do something while you possess the puck. This isn't only about 20 and 93. Even when laffy was on the 3rd line last year you could see the flashes of the top 6 skill but an immature game. Kakko has a mature game that appears to lack the top 6 skill. There is a distinction there.

 

[Blasds]

You cited excellent d and possession. I'm sorry but those two things don't make a player a top 6 staple. Creating offense is what leads to top 6 roles. Kakko just doesn't create anything at this level 5 years in. He is a commentary player and there is still value in that, but top 6 guys do not literally kill every rush opportunity when the puck lands on their stick, nor do they just endlessly hold the puck on the boards. Possession is a great thing if you actually do something while you possess the puck. This isn't only about 20 and 93. Even when laffy was on the 3rd line last year you could see the flashes of the top 6 skill but an immature game. Kakko has a mature game that appears to lack the top 6 skill. There is a distinction there.

+++

 

[mas0764]

Even when laffy was on the 3rd line last year you could see the flashes of the top 6 skill but an immature game. Kakko has a mature game that appears to lack the top 6 skill. There is a distinction there.

Eh, I'm not sure this is true as stated.

I mean, you could see different kinds of flashes from Laf but overall he was very ineffective. He was not creating anything in his overall metrics and advanced stats. This year he's exploded and is like our fourth best offensive player even ahead of Mika (and I'm including Fox as being one of the players who is better).

You don't see the same KIND of raw skill flashes from Kakko but he's not the same flashy offensive scorer. I don't think it means he doesn't have top 6 skill. Honestly I think he does have that skill, but a couple things have held him back, namely, confidence, mental processing of the game, and his foot speed (skate speed).

The driving of offense won't come (if it ever does) until he masters the whole package like Laf did (if he ever can). And if it does, he may not ever be the Lafreniere-like flashy offensive player but he still could be quietly effective like Kreider (not saying he will be exactly as good as Kreider, but you would never guess Kreider has the underlying numbers that he has).

I mean, what "top 6 skill," would you say Kreider has anymore? He's no longer super fast. He doesn't have jaw dropping passing, he doesn't stickhandle through the zone. He doesn't have a wicked shot of any type. He just is all-around good offensively and he's great around the net. I could see Kakko becoming that if he can fix his skating. He's good at a lot of individual things that he just hasn't been able to put all together.

Again, there is a lot to unpack here. There is the issue of whether Kakko will ever be a huge hit as a 2OA like Eichel or Barkov as we originally thought and hoped he would be (probably not). Then there is the issue of whether he will ever be more than this offensively (probably so). Then there is the question of, if so, when and how good will it be? It's taking too long obviously but I think to just say "this is it from Kakko," is probably still premature. Just like it was last season with Lafreniere. Kakko has more of a Power Forward game and that takes longer to develop. He's also been injured constantly.

You aren't gonna see spin-o-rama's, pinpoint passes or ridiculous snipes from Kakko because that isn't going to be his game, we can all see that. But even on that third line where he has two other players who also can't generate much offense, we have seen him growing in confidence. I really would like to see a Cuylle - Chytil - Kakko line stay healthy next year. I don't think you'll see a 50-60 point season on a third line but I bet you see more consistency and effectiveness and I bet he can crack 40. A third line with a Chytil-Kakko pairing that pours in 40+ points each makes this team even more dangerous. They will have to fricking figure out something a RW1 though.

 

[bhamill]

You cited excellent d and possession. I'm sorry but those two things don't make a player a top 6 staple. Creating offense is what leads to top 6 roles. Kakko just doesn't create anything at this level 5 years in. He is a commentary player and there is still value in that, but top 6 guys do not literally kill every rush opportunity when the puck lands on their stick, nor do they just endlessly hold the puck on the boards. Possession is a great thing if you actually do something while you possess the puck. This isn't only about 20 and 93. Even when laffy was on the 3rd line last year you could see the flashes of the top 6 skill but an immature game. Kakko has a mature game that appears to lack the top 6 skill. There is a distinction there.

Well it seems you want to discount points, d, and possession now. Hahahaha.
Look he’s a guy who scored 40 points with no PP time and limited minutes while showing very good d and possession at 22. This year he started off bad, points wise and then got hurt. Since coming back he’s looked pretty good. If you dont see potential for a top six player that’s fine, I dont need you to agree, but you are failing to show me why I should not. Basically you’re saying he’s not flashy enough for the top six… I disagree on that as a criteria. Whatever. It’s all good.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Eh, I'm not sure this is true as stated.

I mean, you could see different kinds of flashes from Laf but overall he was very ineffective. He was not creating anything in his overall metrics and advanced stats. This year he's exploded and is like our fourth best offensive player even ahead of Mika (and I'm including Fox as being one of the players who is better).

You don't see the same KIND of raw skill flashes from Kakko but he's not the same flashy offensive scorer. I don't think it means he doesn't have top 6 skill. Honestly I think he does have that skill, but a couple things have held him back, namely, confidence, mental processing of the game, and his foot speed (skate speed).

The driving of offense won't come (if it ever does) until he masters the whole package like Laf did (if he ever can). And if it does, he may not ever be the Lafreniere-like flashy offensive player but he still could be quietly effective like Kreider (not saying he will be exactly as good as Kreider, but you would never guess Kreider has the underlying numbers that he has).

I mean, what "top 6 skill," would you say Kreider has anymore? He's no longer super fast. He doesn't have jaw dropping passing, he doesn't stickhandle through the zone. He doesn't have a wicked shot of any type. He just is all-around good offensively and he's great around the net. I could see Kakko becoming that if he can fix his skating. He's good at a lot of individual things that he just hasn't been able to put all together.

Again, there is a lot to unpack here. There is the issue of whether Kakko will ever be a huge hit as a 2OA like Eichel or Barkov as we originally thought and hoped he would be (probably not). Then there is the issue of whether he will ever be more than this offensively (probably so). Then there is the question of, if so, when and how good will it be? It's taking too long obviously but I think to just say "this is it from Kakko," is probably still premature. Just like it was last season with Lafreniere. Kakko has more of a Power Forward game and that takes longer to develop. He's also been injured constantly.

You aren't gonna see spin-o-rama's, pinpoint passes or ridiculous snipes from Kakko because that isn't going to be his game, we can all see that. But even on that third line where he has two other players who also can't generate much offense, we have seen him growing in confidence. I really would like to see a Cuylle - Chytil - Kakko line stay healthy next year. I don't think you'll see a 50-60 point season on a third line but I bet you see more consistency and effectiveness and I bet he can crack 40. A third line with a Chytil-Kakko pairing that pours in 40+ points each makes this team even more dangerous. They will have to fricking figure out something a RW1 though.

lets list the things you dont see from Kakko that would be contrary to basically every scouting report on him ever
1. Poor stickhandler
2. Mediocre shot
3. Poor Hockey IQ
4. Poor vision for passes


No on this board disagrees on his skating. But when you throw up those points, you lose like 99% of us.
1. He's probably top 3 in terms of actual stickhandling ability on this team. You cant stickhandle in tight the way he does if you cant.
2. He's got a hard slapshot, can beat a goalie clean with a wrist shot. He needs to improve his shot angles but thats fixable.
3. You dont play the type of defense he does without having a very very good hockey IQ.
4. He's a very good passer, they're almost always tape to tape in stride, as opposed to Kreider's passes where the receiver has to stop and come back to them.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

lets list the things you dont see from Kakko that would be contrary to basically every scouting report on him ever
1. Poor stickhandler
2. Mediocre shot
3. Poor Hockey IQ
4. Poor vision for passes


No on this board disagrees on his skating. But when you throw up those points, you lose like 99% of us.
1. He's probably top 3 in terms of actual stickhandling ability on this team. You cant stickhandle in tight the way he does if you cant.
2. He's got a hard slapshot, can beat a goalie clean with a wrist shot. He needs to improve his shot angles but thats fixable.
3. You dont play the type of defense he does without having a very very good hockey IQ.
4. He's a very good passer, they're almost always tape to tape in stride, as opposed to Kreider's passes where the receiver has to stop and come back to them.

I think he has poor offensive hockey IQ. He rarely makes a play in the middle of the ice that breaks down the defense putting the team in dangerous scoring situations.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I think he has poor offensive hockey IQ. He rarely makes a play in the middle of the ice that breaks down the defense putting the team in dangerous scoring situations.

I think it’s due to his crap skating

 

[IDvsEGO]

I think it’s due to his crap skating

Have you seen drai skate?
Skating shouldn’t be the thing holding him back.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Have you seen drai skate?
Skating shouldn’t be the thing holding him back.

Drai can generate speed, no matter how ugly his stride is.

Kakko actually doesn’t have an ugly stride. He’s just slow af

 

[bleedblue94]

Well it seems you want to discount points, d, and possession now. Hahahaha.
Look he’s a guy who scored 40 points with no PP time and limited minutes while showing very good d and possession at 22. This year he started off bad, points wise and then got hurt. Since coming back he’s looked pretty good. If you dont see potential for a top six player that’s fine, I dont need you to agree, but you are failing to show me why I should not. Basically you’re saying he’s not flashy enough for the top six… I disagree on that as a criteria. Whatever. It’s all good.

I have and you don't want to see or acknowledge it. You keep saying we don't need to agree and then you want me to prove you something or you want to convince me of something. If you don't think we need to agree and your don't want to argue than let's just stop.

 

[mas0764]

lets list the things you dont see from Kakko that would be contrary to basically every scouting report on him ever
1. Poor stickhandler
2. Mediocre shot
3. Poor Hockey IQ
4. Poor vision for passes


No on this board disagrees on his skating. But when you throw up those points, you lose like 99% of us.
1. He's probably top 3 in terms of actual stickhandling ability on this team. You cant stickhandle in tight the way he does if you cant.
2. He's got a hard slapshot, can beat a goalie clean with a wrist shot. He needs to improve his shot angles but thats fixable.
3. You dont play the type of defense he does without having a very very good hockey IQ.
4. He's a very good passer, they're almost always tape to tape in stride, as opposed to Kreider's passes where the receiver has to stop and come back to them.

I’m not sure you followed what I was saying correctly.

 

[jay from jersey]

If Laf proves to be a long term 1RW, it would be big. Together with Perreault and Kakko, that's a solid group of very young RWs.

We have Othmann, Cuylle and Sykora on the LW, and all 3 should be NHLers, but I don't know if any of them becomes a 1LW.

Centers are where the problem lies, but maybe it gets fixed through the draft. Hopefully Chytil recovers and returns healthy.

If that’s the case, they’ll use UFA /trade to get a target of need to replace a Kreider/Panarin when they Become too old/ineffective.
If NYR wants their guy, they usually get him.

 

[bhamill]

I have and you don't want to see or acknowledge it. You keep saying we don't need to agree and then you want me to prove you something or you want to convince me of something. If you don't think we need to agree and your don't want to argue than let's just stop.

I never asked you to prove anything and I’ve merely given my take. And I’m pretty sure the only question I’ve asked at all was what the difference was in Laf between pre season and regular season since all the gains were before pre season. And you’ve given your opinion as well. Do you need ME to agree with you? Of course not. I don’t get what the issue is, but yeah I’ll stop if you do. Hahaha.

 

[UnSandvich]

Fun fact, at 5v5 Laf is second on the team in primary points (to Panarin), goals (to Panarin), and assists (to Trocheck). He has the least secondary assists on that line.

 

[bhamill]

Fun fact, at 5v5 Laf is second on the team in primary points (to Panarin), goals (to Panarin), and assists (to Trocheck). He has the least secondary assists on that line.

The guy is a legit first line winger at 22 and WHEN he gets PP1 time will really take off, stats wise. He can easily be close to a PPG player next year and maybe a 90+ pt player by 24.

 

[TomBlizzy12]

Fun fact, at 5v5 Laf is second on the team in primary points (to Panarin), goals (to Panarin), and assists (to Trocheck). He has the least secondary assists on that line.

If he was a bit luckier he would have at least 70 pts by now

 

[bleedblue94]

I never asked you to prove anything and I’ve merely given my take. And I’m pretty sure the only question I’ve asked at all was what the difference was in Laf between pre season and regular season since all the gains were before pre season. And you’ve given your opinion as well. Do you need ME to agree with you? Of course not. I don’t get what the issue is, but yeah I’ll stop if you do. Hahaha.

TRUCE!!!!

Fun fact, at 5v5 Laf is second on the team in primary points (to Panarin), goals (to Panarin), and assists (to Trocheck). He has the least secondary assists on that line.

good on laffy, but also highlights how bad the rest of the team is at creating consistent 5v5 scoring outside of the bread vinny laffy line.

 

[MikeSteaks]

The fact that Zibby is on the first PP unit over Laffy is a crime.

 

[bhamill]

The fact that Zibby is on the first PP unit over Laffy is a crime.

I was always a “I get why they wont mess with the Powerplay” guy, but I really think they should have been alternating Laf in, at the very least, as a playoff contingency. Remember how the PP disappeared after game 2 against the Devils? Yeah, me too. A major reason we lost the series.

 

[markymarc1215]

Very proud and encouraged at how far he has come. He was one good game away from a 30-30-60 season with minimal PP time. Guy should be a perrenial 70 pt+ player, at minimum, for a long time going forward.

It's very rare to see disappointing prospects turn it around before getting traded, but he did it! He is a bust no more my friends, and figured it out at the age of 22.

 

[PanMan]

PP went cold last year and they had the opportunity to go back to the default PP with Trocheck instead of Kane from the first half of that season but they didn’t.

 

[Hire Sather]

Very proud and encouraged at how far he has come. He was one good game away from a 30-30-60 season with minimal PP time. Guy should be a perrenial 70 pt+ player, at minimum, for a long time going forward.

It's very rare to see disappointing prospects turn it around before getting traded, but he did it! He is a bust no more my friends, and figured it out at the age of 22.

Pretty stunning stuff considering he hadn't yet found his way like 20 games in this season

 

[Rythashocka]

All I can think about is if he got pp time. We are looking at a 70+ point 35 goal season. Great season for him.

Edit: to add, it's incredible what the right coach can do. Lavi deserves all the credit in the world.