Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

And Christensen could shoooooot from what I remember.

God he had so much skill. Off the charts.

 

[Synergy27]

I'll start this off by saying that, somehow, I am still holding out hope, but really only because I have to. I have no rational reason to given what I have seen out of this kid so far.

But, for the rest of you that are legitimately not concerned about Laf eventually becoming a top line player, how do you envision that transformation taking place?

Does he just start to string together a couple of good games at some point? Is it a matter of bounces and maybe a couple of lucky goals getting him going?

Does he go down to the AHL to re-find his confidence?

Does he devote an entire off-season to skating?

I'll be honest. I don't see the path. Kakko, with all his struggles, seems like he just needs a few bounces for the tide to turn. Lafreniere needs to become a completely different player.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

I'll start this off by saying that, somehow, I am still holding out hope, but really only because I have to. I have no rational reason to given what I have seen out of this kid so far.

But, for the rest of you that are legitimately not concerned about Laf eventually becoming a top line player, how do you envision that transformation taking place?

Does he just start to string together a couple of good games at some point? Is it a matter of bounces and maybe a couple of lucky goals getting him going?

Does he go down to the AHL to re-find his confidence?

Does he devote an entire off-season to skating?

I'll be honest. I don't see the path. Kakko, with all his struggles, seems like he just needs a few bounces for the tide to turn. Lafreniere needs to become a completely different player.

Laffy hasn't even played 82 games. It's not going to happen over just a string of games, its going to happen over a longer period of time. Go back and watch any film from Junior...you'll remember fast why he was drafted where he was. He has the skill, he has the talent. It's just going to be a little agonizing to get there, clearly.

 

[3rd Guy High]

Yeah it’s frustrating, but the rangers haven’t him in the best position to develop. They are screwing the pooch here. Only have to look at the team we played tonight to see the stark difference in how NYR develops talent compared to other orgs…

Sillinger - 12gp, 6 points (3 in one game…) but stapled to PP1 and 17 minutes regardless.

If they’re playing poorly, two options - the minors, or sit them down and have them watch a little bit. Sitting in the stands and playing 40 games or so in the top 6 is better for a younger player than ~10 min a night on the 4th line. Keeps them hungry and takes some pressure off.

I can’t help but think how great the kid looked his first couple games in the NHL. He was flying. It’s clear his confidence is shot and he needs a reset.

 

[Kocur26]

He’s worse than Greg mckegg

 

[Machinehead]

I'll start this off by saying that, somehow, I am still holding out hope, but really only because I have to. I have no rational reason to given what I have seen out of this kid so far.

But, for the rest of you that are legitimately not concerned about Laf eventually becoming a top line player, how do you envision that transformation taking place?

Does he just start to string together a couple of good games at some point? Is it a matter of bounces and maybe a couple of lucky goals getting him going?

Does he go down to the AHL to re-find his confidence?

Does he devote an entire off-season to skating?

I'll be honest. I don't see the path. Kakko, with all his struggles, seems like he just needs a few bounces for the tide to turn. Lafreniere needs to become a completely different player.

If it does happen for him, which I hope it does, I think the work that has to be done is mental.

You say he has to be a completely different player and yes, but here's the thing - he was a completely different player in Junior.

Yeah, it's Junior, and lots of guys who are good there just can't hack it here. There's every possibility that happens.

But I've been watching his Junior highlights and you can't tell me it isn't there. His skating could use work, sure, but he's not Jason Allison. He skates good enough right now to be effective.

When you watch him in the Q, maybe he's not a dazzler. The skating is average, the hands are fine, and he's just not gonna make the end-to-end "wow" plays. I think we knew that. But what he was in the Q was a f***ing viper. He would -out of nowhere- find these passes that would beat the whole team or rip shots up against the roof from nothing. He always had the puck, he always wanted it, and it could always go in the net at any time.

Where's the passing in the NHL? He has 10 NHL assists. Ten! Has he even tried to make a nice pass during his time on the Rangers? He also has 89 shots in 70 games. That's dreadful. He has the superb shot, and he'll do anything to not use it at this level.

People say "oh these Q players, they have bad habits, it's all skill all the time." Honestly, I wish. We're getting the opposite. We're getting a limited mistakes player (in his defense, there's been few occasions where I've said "what the f*** Laf!" and I say that to Panarin every night) who goes to the net. Bud, we didn't draft you to be Barclay Goodrow.

To me, he still just seems terrified to try anything in the NHL. Maybe he can't. I hope that's not the case and right now, I still believe that's not the case.

@Glen Sathers Cigar said this in the PGT and I think he's right:

Yeah true. I don’t think the AHL is an option at this point because of the optics and because the alternatives aren’t much better but yeah I mean he clearly has to work through it here. Idk hopefully Chytil can come back soon and they can work on being a duo because he’s certainly not going to get anything going on his current line.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say he’s been good or that all of his problems are other peoples’ fault or anything like that. He needs to be better.

I honestly think he’s so focused on being a dependable player that he’s just defaulting to safe plays all of the time and not trying to make anything happen at all, just trying to not get scored on it seems like.

It seems like he's trying to so hard to be an "NHL guy" and play an "NHL game" that he's lost his swagger. Laf, please do the stupid Q shit. We're begging you.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah it’s frustrating, but the rangers haven’t him in the best position to develop. They are screwing the pooch here. Only have to look at the team we played tonight to see the stark difference in how NYR develops talent compared to other orgs…

Sillinger - 12gp, 6 points (3 in one game…) but stapled to PP1 and 17 minutes regardless.

If they’re playing poorly, two options - the minors, or sit them down and have them watch a little bit. Sitting in the stands and playing 40 games or so in the top 6 is better for a younger player than ~10 min a night on the 4th line. Keeps them hungry and takes some pressure off.

I can’t help but think how great the kid looked his first couple games in the NHL. He was flying. It’s clear his confidence is shot and he needs a reset.

Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day.

After opening night last season, I remember thinking he was gonna be a star.

It's one game, but still. That's like, the last time he looked impressive.

 

[LokiDog]

Yeah it’s frustrating, but the rangers haven’t him in the best position to develop. They are screwing the pooch here. Only have to look at the team we played tonight to see the stark difference in how NYR develops talent compared to other orgs…

Sillinger - 12gp, 6 points (3 in one game…) but stapled to PP1 and 17 minutes regardless.

If they’re playing poorly, two options - the minors, or sit them down and have them watch a little bit. Sitting in the stands and playing 40 games or so in the top 6 is better for a younger player than ~10 min a night on the 4th line. Keeps them hungry and takes some pressure off.

I can’t help but think how great the kid looked his first couple games in the NHL. He was flying. It’s clear his confidence is shot and he needs a reset.

Except that’s not true. In Cole Sillinger’s first 8 games he broke 14 minutes twice. He earned more ice time by playing well. Raymond started with lower minutes and did the same. Mercer did the same. Lundell started with lower minutes - on a deeper team, like we have - and did the same. Etc. etc.

Laf started out getting 15+ minutes per game and he was on PP1 when Strome was out. Unlike all of the others, Laf didn’t take advantage of his opportunities and lost his minutes by playing… really badly.

 

[Synergy27]

If it does happen for him, which I hope it does, I think the work that has to be done is mental.

You say he has to be a completely different player and yes, but here's the thing - he was a completely different player in Junior.

Yeah, it's Junior, and lots of guys who are good there just can't hack it here. There's every possibility that happens.

But I've been watching his Junior highlights and you can't tell me it isn't there. His skating could use work, sure, but he's not Jason Allison. He skates good enough right now to be effective.

When you watch him in the Q, maybe he's not a dazzler. The skating is average, the hands are fine, and he's just not gonna make the end-to-end "wow" plays. I think we knew that. But what he was in the Q was a f***ing viper. He would -out of nowhere- find these passes that would beat the whole team or rip shots up against the roof from nothing. He always had the puck, he always wanted it, and it could always go in the net at any time.

Where's the passing in the NHL? He has 10 NHL assists. Ten! Has he even tried to make a nice pass during his time on the Rangers? He also has 89 shots in 70 games. That's dreadful. He has the superb shot, and he'll do anything to not use it at this level.

People say "oh these Q players, they have bad habits, it's all skill all the time." Honestly, I wish. We're getting the opposite. We're getting a limited mistakes player (in his defense, there's been few occasions where I've said "what the f*** Laf!" and I say that to Panarin every night) who goes to the net. Bud, we didn't draft you to be Barclay Goodrow.

To me, he still just seems terrified to try anything in the NHL. Maybe he can't. I hope that's not the case and right now, I still believe that's not the case.

@Glen Sathers Cigar said this in the PGT and I think he's right:



It seems like he's trying to so hard to be an "NHL guy" and play an "NHL game" that he's lost his swagger. Laf, please do the stupid Q shit. We're begging you.

It's interesting you bring up Goodrow, because seeing them play together tonight really drove home the fact that Laf looks EXACTLY like him. And that's not a good thing for an aspiring superstar forward. He's a vanilla cake with vanilla icing.

And FWIW, I f***ing agree on all accounts regarding the player he was in junior. I also distinctly remember being stoked that he had an edge that some were comparing to Messier. None of it has translated, outside of maybe a handful of shifts against players he had played against in the Q.

 

[aufheben]

This org would've turned Crosby into a 40 point player

Dude the Penguins were throwing Marc-Andre Fleury into NHL games before he could wipe his own ass

 

[Machinehead]

It's interesting you bring up Goodrow, because seeing them play together tonight really drove home the fact that Laf looks EXACTLY like him. And that's not a good thing for an aspiring superstar forward. He's a vanilla cake with vanilla icing.

And FWIW, I f***ing agree on all accounts regarding the player he was in junior. I also distinctly remember being stoked that he had an edge that some were comparing to Messier. None of it has translated, outside of maybe a handful of shifts against players he had played against in the Q.

Yeah that's the weirdest thing. All the scouts said it was his compete level that put him over the top. He seems afraid to mix it up too.

I think he and Kakko could both benefit from cracking somebody in the mouth one of these nights.

They both just feel like kids and act like kids. They are, but other teams have gotten their kids ready.

 

[LokiDog]

Yeah that's the weirdest thing. All the scouts said it was his compete level that put him over the top. He seems afraid to mix it up too.

I think he and Kakko could both benefit from cracking somebody in the mouth one of these nights.

They both just feel like kids and act like kids. They are, but other teams have gotten their kids ready.

I don’t know. There’s a part that wants to agree, but hundreds of NHLers with their pedigree have been able to cope with the pressure or translate the talent at their age. While Kakko is frustrating, he shows signs of a specific type of game that stands out or has value. Laf literally looks like Goodrow. He had no discernible trait or style that separates him. He isn’t an elite shooter who needs to learn to find space. He isn’t a net front guy who gets to the front and needs other players sending pucks to the net. He isn’t a dangler or speedster. He isn’t a cycle and possession monster like Kakko could be. He’s not even that good, rich vanilla ice cream with quality sprinkles. He’s like nonfat sugar free vanilla fro-yo.

 

[Machinehead]

I don’t know. There’s a part that wants to agree, but hundreds of NHLers with their pedigree have been able to cope with the pressure or translate the talent at their age. While Kakko is frustrating, he shows signs of a specific type of game that stands out or has value. Laf literally looks like Goodrow. He had no discernible trait or style that separates him. He isn’t an elite shooter who needs to learn to find space. He isn’t a net front guy who gets to the front and needs other players sending pucks to the net. He isn’t a dangler or speedster. He isn’t a cycle and possession monster like Kakko could be. He’s not even that good, rich vanilla ice cream with quality sprinkles. He’s like nonfat sugar free vanilla fro-yo.

He can shoot. I think my biggest gripe with him is the lack of shooting. Then again, he's playing for a team that will go to the ends of the earth to not shoot.

Don't get me wrong, he bears responsibility. But you have Laf's issues, Kakko has warts, Kravtsov is a failed pick so far, and Andersson was a failed pick. Four top-10 picks, four problems. Did we get unlucky four times or is this a team issue?

I agree with you that it's not just ice time at this point. He had chances earlier in the year. But evidently what we're emphasizing as an organization isn't conducive to development. I still think we have a major issue in terms of having a list of players who can commit capital murder on the ice and get rewarded, and a list of players who have to prove they're dependable NHL guys.

Something shot this kid's confidence. Ditto for Kakko. Whatever they were being asked to do, Kravtsov was evidently not having it (which I was critical of). When it happens multiple times, it's the team's responsibility to get it right.

 

[Synergy27]

I don’t know. There’s a part that wants to agree, but hundreds of NHLers with their pedigree have been able to cope with the pressure or translate the talent at their age. While Kakko is frustrating, he shows signs of a specific type of game that stands out or has value. Laf literally looks like Goodrow. He had no discernible trait or style that separates him. He isn’t an elite shooter who needs to learn to find space. He isn’t a net front guy who gets to the front and needs other players sending pucks to the net. He isn’t a dangler or speedster. He isn’t a cycle and possession monster like Kakko could be. He’s not even that good, rich vanilla ice cream with quality sprinkles. He’s like nonfat sugar free vanilla fro-yo.

Agree with @Machinehead, his shot is the one thing that I have seen him “flash” at an elite level. The goal late last season against the Devils sticks out. The problem is, he lacks basically everything else needed to get into a position to use it.

 

[LokiDog]

Agree with @Machinehead, his shot is the one thing that I have seen him “flash” at an elite level. The goal late last season against the Devils sticks out. The problem is, he lacks basically everything else needed to get into a position to use it.

There’s being a good shooter though and there’s Ovie, Stamkos, Gaboirk, Malkin, Kovalchuk. Heck, even Semin. Laf can shoot the puck and I didn’t mean to insinuate otherwise. But Ovie and those others are guys who, while he wouldn’t be knocking on the doors of the record books, still would have scored a lot of goals if all he was good at was getting open and shooting. Laf doesn’t have any one defining standout skill. He has a good shot. He doesn’t have a, once this kid starts finding space, watch the f*** out because you won’t be able to stop him shot.

 

[Synergy27]

There’s being a good shooter though and there’s Ovie, Stamkos, Gaboirk, Malkin, Kovalchuk. Heck, even Semin. Laf can shoot the puck and I didn’t mean to insinuate otherwise. But Ovie and those others are guys who, while he wouldn’t be knocking on the doors of the record books, still would have scored a lot of goals if all he was good at was getting open and shooting. Laf doesn’t have any one defining standout skill. He has a good shot. He doesn’t have a, once this kid starts finding space, watch the f*** out because you won’t be able to stop him shot.

Yep. Agree. Unfortunately.

He was never hyped too though. Except for maybe his vision? The rest was just a very complete package, skill, snarl, drive.

 

[HyperX]

He cant be playing ten minutes in a game. Thats just piss poor managing.

If the argument is to play him less to win games, then send him down (if hes eligible). Otherwise let him sit for a few games.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I think they should make a third line of Laf chytil Kakko and let them ride or die. If they are worried about them being less defensive swap Chytil for Rooney or Goodrow.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

He cant be playing ten minutes in a game. Thats just piss poor managing.

If the argument is to play him less to win games, then send him down (if hes eligible). Otherwise let him sit for a few games.

He's eligible.

 

[bbny]

I think they should make a third line of Laf chytil Kakko and let them ride or die. If they are worried about them being less defensive swap Chytil for Rooney or Goodrow.

I want Laf - Goodrow - Kakko.

 

[Savant]

Should (still) go to Hartford. If Kravtsov was expected to go to Hartford and have a good attitude about it, same should go for Lafreniere. He is not a NHL player right now.

 

[Bob Richards]

Christ, I just remembered…before I knew anything about Lafreniere, I joked on here—months, if not a year before we drafted him—that he had the most bust-sounding name ever.

His name sounds like your average 1st round busts from the 1996-1999 drafts.

 

[CLW]

I think they should make a third line of Laf chytil Kakko and let them ride or die. If they are worried about them being less defensive swap Chytil for Rooney or Goodrow.

No. Kakko played 16:52 today. That's what he needs. He may be snakebitten atm and he is not producing high light goals, but I'm sure he is doing everything the coaches ask of him (even at the cost of being the red headed step child of the Panarin - Strome line). His overall game is not bad by any means and today he got a sniff at PP1. For whatever reason this is the path the Rangers have chosen for him. Kreider often talks about "trusting the process", and that's what we have here. With Kakko I can see a clear plan and process.

Now with Laf that's another matter, what is the vision for him currently? That's harder to get a handle on from the outside. This is the important part, what does Laf and the Rangers think is the best way forward? What is the vision and process here? While Laf was fine with Zib and Buch late last season he did not work with Zib and Kreider now, so with Buch gone there has to be a new plan. At this stage it does seem Laf needs a setup guy or play driver to feed off from but there is none available. That being so, what does he need to do now to grow as a player?

 

[mas0764]

If it does happen for him, which I hope it does, I think the work that has to be done is mental.

You say he has to be a completely different player and yes, but here's the thing - he was a completely different player in Junior.

Yeah, it's Junior, and lots of guys who are good there just can't hack it here. There's every possibility that happens.

But I've been watching his Junior highlights and you can't tell me it isn't there. His skating could use work, sure, but he's not Jason Allison. He skates good enough right now to be effective.

When you watch him in the Q, maybe he's not a dazzler. The skating is average, the hands are fine, and he's just not gonna make the end-to-end "wow" plays. I think we knew that. But what he was in the Q was a f***ing viper. He would -out of nowhere- find these passes that would beat the whole team or rip shots up against the roof from nothing. He always had the puck, he always wanted it, and it could always go in the net at any time.

Where's the passing in the NHL? He has 10 NHL assists. Ten! Has he even tried to make a nice pass during his time on the Rangers? He also has 89 shots in 70 games. That's dreadful. He has the superb shot, and he'll do anything to not use it at this level.

People say "oh these Q players, they have bad habits, it's all skill all the time." Honestly, I wish. We're getting the opposite. We're getting a limited mistakes player (in his defense, there's been few occasions where I've said "what the f*** Laf!" and I say that to Panarin every night) who goes to the net. Bud, we didn't draft you to be Barclay Goodrow.

To me, he still just seems terrified to try anything in the NHL. Maybe he can't. I hope that's not the case and right now, I still believe that's not the case.

@Glen Sathers Cigar said this in the PGT and I think he's right:



It seems like he's trying to so hard to be an "NHL guy" and play an "NHL game" that he's lost his swagger. Laf, please do the stupid Q shit. We're begging you.

And I blame the team for this mentality.

 

[mas0764]

He cant be playing ten minutes in a game. Thats just piss poor managing.

If the argument is to play him less to win games, then send him down (if hes eligible). Otherwise let him sit for a few games.

And if he needs to be playing fewer minutes because playing more costs us wins, then we should stop winning and play him. Winning now is less important than developing Lafreniere and Kakko.