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Ghost of Ethan Hunt

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Jun 23, 2018
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From whom?
I've had my doubts about Cholowski since '18 training camp, but this gives me some hope.

Second-year standouts: The five most improved sophomores in 2019-20 - TheHockeyNews

"Ryan Graves, D, 24 (Colorado Avalanche)
Cale Makar may be the big star on the Avalanche’s blueline, but his defense partner, Graves, deserves a lot of credit. One year ago, Graves was a bottom-pairing rookie who averaged 11 minutes per night across his 26-game NHL audition. He’s up to 18 minutes per game this season, and with a goals above expected of 3.8 (third among defensemen with 300 minutes of 5-on-5 action) and 25 points overall, he’s getting the job done. Even though plus-minus is a highly criticized stat, it’s worth noting Graves is first in the league at plus-41. Not bad for someone who needed four years of AHL duty before getting a full-time shot in the NHL."

...also helps that Kronner & co. are working with him in GR.
 

RedMenace

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Jul 24, 2006
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I've had my doubts about Cholowski since '18 training camp, but this gives me some hope.

Second-year standouts: The five most improved sophomores in 2019-20 - TheHockeyNews

"Ryan Graves, D, 24 (Colorado Avalanche)
Cale Makar may be the big star on the Avalanche’s blueline, but his defense partner, Graves, deserves a lot of credit. One year ago, Graves was a bottom-pairing rookie who averaged 11 minutes per night across his 26-game NHL audition. He’s up to 18 minutes per game this season, and with a goals above expected of 3.8 (third among defensemen with 300 minutes of 5-on-5 action) and 25 points overall, he’s getting the job done. Even though plus-minus is a highly criticized stat, it’s worth noting Graves is first in the league at plus-41. Not bad for someone who needed four years of AHL duty before getting a full-time shot in the NHL."

...also helps that Kronner & co. are working with him in GR.

That's the thing. People gave Smith an inordinately long time before they turned on him, yet a 2nd year pro is already a bust?

Some guys with the complete game take longer to get that rhythm, whereas someone like Smith or Bowey looks "good" because they can rush the puck up the ice and put shots on net.

That's all anyone wants to see: the next Erik Karlsson. And it's a f***ing joke.
 

vladdy16

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Aug 2, 2005
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You're setting up a strawman there. Cholo started both last season and this season in the NHL. He has in fact been given multiple tryouts. It was not as if he played 10 or 20 games last season before being sent down, either. He saw 52 games of NHL action. This season he was sent down earlier, in mid-December. He got less of a look because the progress the team was looking for was not there. He is not an NHL ready d-man. He's too soft and passive, and other teams are readily exploiting the holes in his game.

Look, the basic problem with Cholowski is that if he can't play competently in his own zone then he simply cannot play at the NHL level. There's no giving him a chance to put up points on the PP and sheltering him from all other aspects of the job, beyond what was already attempted. If it were that easy then Hirose would still be here and he'd be logging 7 minutes a night, almost all on the PP. Hirose, along with Cholo, have been among our best players on the PP. Being an NHL player means meeting a minimum set of standards. Until Cholo achieves that, he's going to be on the outside looking in, as is Hirose. Cholo has already gotten two good looks and a second chance. How many more chances will he receive? I get the feeling that after two years of stagnation, the team is ready to move on. Depending on how much offense Seider is able to bite off there may not even be a need for Cholowski, anyway.

I don't think I'm setting up a strawman, as much as I am openly diving into personal subjectivity, projection and conjecture.

I think it's fair if you prefer an accelerated, hyper stringent, opportunity sparse, vetting process for prospects. My only point is that by doing that, you are inevitably walking into a JD Martinez scenario down the road. I also think it's fair if you think Cholowski is a dud, and that my dichotomy is therefore irrelevant, and he's received more opportunities than you'd expect. I think man to man and zone defense troubles being the central point of the argument against more opportunity should raise suspicion though.

To your specific points, I have never advocated for the consistent use of recently drafted defensemen in the NHL. Hronek has played too much, Cholowski has played in too many different places, etc.

It's honestly baffling to me that Hronek, Cholowski, Seider and Lindstrom haven't played massive minutes together in the AHL. I think it'd be an incredibly long list of even all-time great defensemen that would look like shit if they were rushed to the NHL, played on the bottom pairing, and yo yo'd between teammates and coaching staffs in the way Cholowski has been.

Failing 'try outs' at this point in his development should be a given. My point is if they indeed have been try outs, they have not been at all comprehensive, because outside of a handful of periods where he carried Hronek a few weeks ago, and a handful of shifts with Green last year, Cholowski has zero NHL experience playing a game in a top-4 role to this point. And he has had zero potential as a bottom pairing defensemen all along imo. His offensive attributes revolve around pacing, and if he's playing in short intervals, he's not going to be efficient enough offensively to worry about keeping around for the no 5 role.

Of course Cholowski's track record and play has proven, that if he plays in the top 4, there will be disastrous results in the short term at times. But part of player evaluation is looking past that, and forecasting what the complete product will look like with the addition of continued experiential gains. Cholowski is a much rarer prospect than he is being given credit for here. It's startling to me to see him being held up over his troubles with man to man and zone defense, in 1 third of the ice. That's the most 'experience malleable' attribute you can hope for!

So my overall counter would be similar to your argument against Cholowski, along the lines of "Look, Cholowski is a recently drafted, puck managing, passive, birds eye defensemen, and if you/he can't afford to navigate the many errors he will make while learning through each scenario a top 4 defensemen will encounter, then you are hurting his development and wasting everyones time by using him as an injury replacement, and having Daley, Nielson and Perlini literally top the list of players he's played with most frequently in the NHL."

Again, I understand seeing the fatal flaws in his game. But I won't be persuaded that zero positive reinforcement, combined with limited opportunity and a hyperfocus on the negative, is going to give you the best read on a players potential. Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and give the guy a chunk of games to prove he's a gamer or not and go from there.

Playing o-zone starts with a dead beat partner, no running mates on offense, and coaches orders echoing in your head doesn't really provide an avenue to prove if you are game or not. Sheltering a player all game, then double shifting him the last 10 minutes when you need a goal or 2, doesn't really give the impression that you are trying to develop his game in the defensive zone.

I don't disagree with your read on the situation as a whole. Yzerman has never mentioned his name, Blashill has never said a good word, and Lindstrom was brought up pushing us over the limit in regards to Seattle. If I was Cholowski, I would be dreaming of playing home games in Western Canada or Seattle in the near future. It remains to be seen whether that fact is a good omen, that we have great scouts and hard driving development coaches that are fine tuned and fully invested and can recognize fatal flaws when they see them, or if it's more of a matter of grandstanding and convenience, because in most orgs, Cholowski would have never played 1 NHL game at this point yet.

Hirose is a glorified PTO, and AA was one year away from UFA. Cholowski is 3 years from RFA status. Way different situations imo.
 

vladdy16

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Aug 2, 2005
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Did I contradict myself? Did I say Greene was a spring chicken? Of course Andy is past his prime. So far past it that he'd probably be willing to sign a short term deal, 1 or 2 year. Plus being a local, the team could offer him extra incentive like a post retirement job in the front office.

The problem with Brodie is you're signing someone past his prime to a long term deal.

Regardless, none of them are signing with the Wings without extra incentive. That's where your logic is flawed. Your posts are more wishful thinking than anything....

Brodie is a decent skater with great vision, and isn't even 30 yet. I see no reason to believe he's not entering his prime.
 

Gniwder

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Oct 12, 2009
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Brodie is a decent skater with great vision, and isn't even 30 yet. I see no reason to believe he's not entering his prime.
OK, let's say he's still prime. He won't be by the end of his contract, because he's going to want term and money to play for Detroit. Are we at the point where the team should commit to long term contracts with UFA vets?

I doubt Stevie signs anyone for more than 2 or 3 years, much like last offseason.

I think we're in "stop gap" mode for one more offseason then retool next offseason when Helm, Flip, LGD, and Nemeth contracts are over. Probably buy out the last season of Nielson's contract as well.

Plus he'll have a better idea of the team's long term needs after drafting top 4 this year and probably next year.
 

vladdy16

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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OK, let's say he's still prime. He won't be by the end of his contract, because he's going to want term and money to play for Detroit. Are we at the point where the team should commit to long term contracts with UFA vets?

I doubt Stevie signs anyone for more than 2 or 3 years, much like last offseason.

I think we're in "stop gap" mode for one more offseason then retool next offseason when Helm, Flip, LGD, and Nemeth contracts are over. Probably buy out the last season of Nielson's contract as well.

Plus he'll have a better idea of the team's long term needs after drafting top 4 this year and probably next year.

With Pietrangelo and Krug garnering attention, and Brodie being insulated in CGY by Giordano and being only 29 years old, I don't see any reason for your concern over money/term/age. I think it's more likely that Brodie is still improving.

Having a concise, achievable plan for your roster build is important. It doesn't stretch so far that you need all 18 guys to be the exact same age. I see no reason why we should wait for some of our worst players contracts to expire, before we add good players with big upside.

If you are focusing on the draft and long term, you should want a player like Brodie here sooner, not later.
 

Gniwder

Registered User
Oct 12, 2009
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Bellingham, WA
With Pietrangelo and Krug garnering attention, and Brodie being insulated in CGY by Giordano and being only 29 years old, I don't see any reason for your concern over money/term/age. I think it's more likely that Brodie is still improving.

Having a concise, achievable plan for your roster build is important. It doesn't stretch so far that you need all 18 guys to be the exact same age. I see no reason why we should wait for some of our worst players contracts to expire, before we add good players with big upside.

If you are focusing on the draft and long term, you should want a player like Brodie here sooner, not later.
Trust me, I do want a player like Brodie sooner than later, but the problem is that we're the worst team in the league, and that means huge overpayment AND term to get any decent talent to sign. The Pens, Caps, and a lot of other teams rebuilt with picks because nobody wants to sign with a loser. We're in that boat now. Heck, nobody wanted to sign with us when we were mediocre.... remember that? The team overpaid Nielsen, Green, and signed Daley.

I'm fully expecting Stevie to sign a stop gap this summer.
 

14ari13

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Oct 19, 2006
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With Pietrangelo and Krug garnering attention, and Brodie being insulated in CGY by Giordano and being only 29 years old, I don't see any reason for your concern over money/term/age. I think it's more likely that Brodie is still improving.

Having a concise, achievable plan for your roster build is important. It doesn't stretch so far that you need all 18 guys to be the exact same age. I see no reason why we should wait for some of our worst players contracts to expire, before we add good players with big upside.

If you are focusing on the draft and long term, you should want a player like Brodie here sooner, not later.

I am not sure about the prime.

I have mentioned this before and I would like the poster to discuss if the prime has changed, in a way that it is 2-3 years earlier.

In this case, Brodie would be with 5-6 years of good hockey in him, but actually it is only 2-3.
 

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