Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part II

[Megustaelhockey]

Previous thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1855817

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[Brooklyn Ranger]

Yak, yak, yak about the coach and his role in the current situation, but the fish rots from the head down. What's going on now is the result of years of choices by the front office. The Man behind the Curtain may no longer be running the show, but his fingerprints are all over this organization. AV certainly plays a role, but it's one he was chosen to play.

 

[True Blue]

Yak, yak, yak about the coach and his role in the current situation, but the fish rots from the head down. What's going on now is the result of years of choices by the front office. The Man behind the Curtain may no longer be running the show, but his fingerprints are all over this organization. AV certainly plays a role, but it's one he was chosen to play.

Agree and disagree, Brook. You are spot on that the fish rots from the head down. Yes, Sather cooked the dinner, but how much input did AV have in the ingredients?

Sather ran off after he depleted the farm system, traded away 4 consecutive first round picks and put the team into salary cap hell. But AV got a say in the matter. Or so I believe. I truly think that the team is molded into exactly the image that he wanted. A fancy pants, no meat and potatoes, team whose play is predicated on the quick strikes and tic tac toe passing.

Unfortunately, he has no answer when the team is not allowed open ice. And he has had no answer. The failure to be able to adjust is all on AV. Special teams failure is also ALL coaching. Just as Torts took the credit for a good PK and a poorus PP, so too does AV shoulder this blame.

The trust in vets as opposed to younger players, has long been his holdmark. I can only think of Mclrath here, as Sather has depopulated the farm system to the point that the waiver wire is a better choice for call ups than Hartford. And that is scary.

I do not think that AV gets fired this year. This year will be what it will be. Truthfully, he may get all of next season as well. If he makes the playoffs this year (and I think that they will limp in) and misses next year, he may get into the following season after that as well.

 

[pld459666]

Agree and disagree, Brook. You are spot on that the fish rots from the head down. Yes, Sather cooked the dinner, but how much input did AV have in the ingredients?

Sather ran off after he depleted the farm system, traded away 4 consecutive first round picks and put the team into salary cap hell. But AV got a say in the matter. Or so I believe. I truly think that the team is molded into exactly the image that he wanted. A fancy pants, no meat and potatoes, team whose play is predicated on the quick strikes and tic tac toe passing.

Unfortunately, he has no answer when the team is not allowed open ice. And he has had no answer. The failure to be able to adjust is all on AV. Special teams failure is also ALL coaching. Just as Torts took the credit for a good PK and a poorus PP, so too does AV shoulder this blame.

The trust in vets as opposed to younger players, has long been his holdmark. I can only think of Mclrath here, as Sather has depopulated the farm system to the point that the waiver wire is a better choice for call ups than Hartford. And that is scary.

I do not think that AV gets fired this year. This year will be what it will be. Truthfully, he may get all of next season as well. If he makes the playoffs this year (and I think that they will limp in) and misses next year, he may get into the following season after that as well.

not sure I buy into the AV had a hand in forming this team.

75% of the team is pre AV hiring. The guys he may have had a hand in acquiring are Klein and Boyle. I omit Yandle from that due to the way AV uses him.

A list of the guys here before AV

Nash - Kreider - Miller - Lindberg - Stepan - Brassard - Moore - Zuccs - Fast - McD - G - Staal - Dylan - Hank

Hayes was a FA signing that we could say AV wanted, Stalberg and Glass at the forward position.

Klein & Boyle on D and Rannta in nets.

 

[Desdichado93]

Yak, yak, yak about the coach and his role in the current situation, but the fish rots from the head down. What's going on now is the result of years of choices by the front office.
The Man behind the Curtain may no longer be running the show, but his fingerprints are all over this organization. AV certainly plays a role, but it's one he was chosen to play.

Regardless of which player Sather signed and to what contract lengths/salary levels. AV is the one deciding which players, how much they play,
when they play that play and which player(s) that gets to sit in the penthouse.

In the end AV is responsible for what he does with what he has available.

It doesn't matter if GS signed Giradi and Staal to a "monster contracts", AV is the one who keeps playing them over McIlrath,
AV is the one responsible for playing Tanner Glass each and every game. AV is the one who keeps misusing Yandle.

 

[silverfish]

I still want Lindy.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

Agree and disagree, Brook. You are spot on that the fish rots from the head down. Yes, Sather cooked the dinner, but how much input did AV have in the ingredients?

Sather ran off after he depleted the farm system, traded away 4 consecutive first round picks and put the team into salary cap hell. But AV got a say in the matter. Or so I believe. I truly think that the team is molded into exactly the image that he wanted. A fancy pants, no meat and potatoes, team whose play is predicated on the quick strikes and tic tac toe passing.

Unfortunately, he has no answer when the team is not allowed open ice. And he has had no answer. The failure to be able to adjust is all on AV. Special teams failure is also ALL coaching. Just as Torts took the credit for a good PK and a poorus PP, so too does AV shoulder this blame.

The trust in vets as opposed to younger players, has long been his holdmark. I can only think of Mclrath here, as Sather has depopulated the farm system to the point that the waiver wire is a better choice for call ups than Hartford. And that is scary.

I do not think that AV gets fired this year. This year will be what it will be. Truthfully, he may get all of next season as well. If he makes the playoffs this year (and I think that they will limp in) and misses next year, he may get into the following season after that as well.

I don't think Sather is out of the picture--he, Gorton and AV sat together in the stands during practice today while Arniel was on the ice. And while I certainly think many coaches do have imput on personnel decision--especially in evaluating them--I'm skeptical that their views or even the way they use them are the main reason why a player is signed/retained/traded.

I also think the fundamental problems is that the pieces on the ice don't fit very well. Chemistry is a very fragile thing and the team lost more than it appeared they would on paper after last season. That's on management--I suspect they completely ignored the possibility that the cap would not keep increasing and thought they would always have more room than they actually do. It became a domino effect--they traded away or lost several players who provided a lot of intangibles and specific skills and were forced to replace them on the cheap or gamble that younger players would be able to quickly grow into replacements. The coaching staff does bear some blame because they have not adopted well, but there are not many who would be doing as well, much less better than them.

Great teams rarely look as great on paper--it's a team effort and to win a Stanley Cup most teams have to be more than the sum of their parts. This group may never even equal the sum of their parts: the lack of chemistry on the ice is painfully obvious. But, it's also possible they find a grove and develop into something more. It's just getting too late into the season to be optimistic it will happen.

AV gets another chance, but the outcome may not be any better due to decisions already made. Given the realities of the NMCs and salary cap constraints, it may not be possible to trade for/sign a better cast of characters. What we see may be what we get unless several more prospects/young players (with cough,Hayes and Kreider, cough leading the list) elevating their level of play soon.

Edit: finally, also think that AV is not being any different than most coaches in relying on his veterans. Part of developing young talent is not pushing them too far too fast. Better to bring them along slowly than force them into more critical roles too soon. Could McIlrath being playing more? Sure, but the real test will come next year when he's expected to come to camp ready to fill a spot and play a more a more intregal role in the team's success. Ditto Lindberg who will probably be expected to take over for Moore. Right now, leaning on them to carry the team is very risky and veterans do regain their footing and find some of their old magic without crumbling under the pressure. In any case, without them this team is stuck where it is. Of all the young ones, only Miller has responded well to challenge--there have been times when several others appear to be trying to play themselves off the team (even Stepan can be mentioned here). It's a big challenge to step up and not only elevate your level of play, but also take more responsibility for leading the group--that's true in sports and in "regular" life.

 

[True Blue]

I don't think Sather is out of the picture--he, Gorton and AV sat together in the stands during practice today while Arniel was on the ice. And while I certainly think many coaches do have imput on personnel decision--especially in evaluating them--I'm skeptical that their views or even the way they use them are the main reason why a player is signed/retained/traded.

I also think the fundamental problems is that the pieces on the ice don't fit very well. Chemistry is a very fragile thing and the team lost more than it appeared they would on paper after last season. That's on management--I suspect they completely ignored the possibility that the cap would not keep increasing and thought they would always have more room than they actually do. It became a domino effect--they traded away or lost several players who provided a lot of intangibles and specific skills and were forced to replace them on the cheap or gamble that younger players would be able to quickly grow into replacements. The coaching staff does bear some blame because they have not adopted well, but there are not many who would be doing as well, much less better than them.

True. I believe that Sather has wanted an all-skill team for a very long time. He found a coach who believes in the same thing. I think that AV has a very big hand in choosing the ingredients as well as to who goes and who stays.

To me, both Sather and AV have been the problem. Gorton has to clean up the mess that Sather has left behind. It remains to be seen if Gorton's view of a team will align with AV. I have my doubts on that.

 

[Inferno]

If sather and av want all skill wtf is glass, rupp, Scott, brashear, boogaard, etc doing with new York rangers listed on their resume????

 

[TheLowKreider]

I went from arguing he was a top 5 coach last year to wanting him fired. My opinion on someone has never changed this drastically so quickly.

 

[True Blue]

If sather and av want all skill wtf is glass, rupp, Scott, brashear, boogaard, etc doing with new York rangers listed on their resume????

Most of those are pre-AV. Torts ran a different ship. And the answer is overreactions. BTW, I do not think that Glass somehow transforms the team.

 

[Matz03]

If we fire AV now and he gets pickup quickly, then we might just get a 2nd rounder in this years draft instead of 2017? this is a dumb rule but we must get assets anyway we can and a 2nd is pretty decent.

I like Av but he just can't get out of his own way. He loves that old fashioned eye test and it too stuck in his ways, he just won't adapt, too slow to recognize issues and implement changes.

 

[Ori]

AV won`t get fired until end of the season it all depends if we qualify for the playoffs or not. And if we fail to reach the playoffs - they should hire a new coaching staff, and shake up the roster to rebuild for new cup challenges in the future!

 

[Irishguy42]

If we fire AV now and he gets pickup quickly, then we might just get a 2nd rounder in this years draft instead of 2017? this is a dumb rule but we must get assets anyway we can and a 2nd is pretty decent.

I like Av but he just can't get out of his own way. He loves that old fashioned eye test and it too stuck in his ways, he just won't adapt, too slow to recognize issues and implement changes.

Pretty sure the BoG did away with that rule recently, no?

 

[Matz03]

Pretty sure the BoG did away with that rule recently, no?

you're right, I think it has at the last meetings.

 

[Captain Lindy]

AV pretty much admitted that this team is better minus Glass so let's hope he sticks with this lineup. It'll be a tough one in Philly tomorrow.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I went from arguing he was a top 5 coach last year to wanting him fired. My opinion on someone has never changed this drastically so quickly.

Same thing and it bothers me. I feel had by AV. I thought he was a great coach but he went off the deep end this year. Never has someone destroyed trust so quickly with me. Torts was less accomplished and his teams were by in large worse and still it took longer for me to hate his guts.

 

[Inferno]

AV pretty much admitted that this team is better minus Glass so let's hope he sticks with this lineup. It'll be a tough one in Philly tomorrow.

when did he say that?

 

[JohnC]

Torts was less accomplished and his teams were by in large worse and still it took longer for me to hate his guts.

I despise this argument but:

Unless you're talking about their time here...

 

[True Blue]

STorts was less accomplished and his teams were by in large worse and still it took longer for me to hate his guts.

If by less accomplished, you mean he did something that the Rangers organization has accomplished only once in 75 years, then sure. But, I do agree that he managed to do more with less.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I despise this argument but:

Unless you're talking about their time here...

I meant during his time here.

If by less accomplished, you mean he did something that the Rangers organization has accomplished only once in 75 years, then sure. But, I do agree that he managed to do more with less.

I mean AV went to the SC Final and ECF in back to back years including a Presidents' Trophy. Torts only had one really good year in more years he was here.

 

[True Blue]

I mean AV went to the SC Final and ECF in back to back years including a Presidents' Trophy. Torts only had one really good year in more years he was here.

Got it. But to be fair, it needs to be acknowledged how much less talented teams Torts had. I truly believe he was drawing water from a stone.

 

[Gordon Bombay]

Bottom 25 in PP and PK. Anyone know last time we finished the season like this in both? If I had to guess it's before Renney.

 

[Captain Lindy]

when did he say that?

It was in an article in the Post.

 

[Broadway Brad]

I've had more than enough of this clown. Girardi and Staal make mistake after mistake and nothing happens. Fire him.