Adjusted Save Percentage

haakon84

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Dec 14, 2003
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This is why it is important to look at PPs faced when looking at save percentage:

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/06/estimating-even-strength-save.html

I just wish he did a full analysis instead of just looking at six goalies.

And power plays awarded. No doubt in my mind Brodeur played far more 5 on 5 than any of those goaltenders. Devils were routinely the most disciplined team in the league as well as the team awarded the least amount of Power Plays (bottom 5 in every one of his seasons and dead last in about 50%). Again all it talks about is one stat. Still does not incorporate shots prevented (I know it can't but it doesn't even mention it). Brodeur's intangibles are much more noticeable on the Penalty Kill. Teams had to change their attack because they could not just shoot it in on goal. They needed a very precise dump-in which I can not even count the amount of times Brodeur just shot the puck down the ice. Very one dimensional study with little information. How much did they play even strength? Shots for? Shots against?
 

foame

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Jan 26, 2008
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FOAME : You point about sv% and games would tend to penalize guys who are already penalized by the fact they were playing with better backups (thus, not earning as much shots and saves during their primes).
My point was that all teams doesn't play eachother equal number of times. Using league avg-shots can make a differance (look at the differance in shots between North West and North East).
 

seventieslord

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And power plays awarded. No doubt in my mind Brodeur played far more 5 on 5 than any of those goaltenders. Devils were routinely the most disciplined team in the league as well as the team awarded the least amount of Power Plays (bottom 5 in every one of his seasons and dead last in about 50%).

How does this impact his personal number - sv%? I can see it affecting wins (i.e., they didn 't have as many offensive opportunities, so less goals for, so less wins) but how does this relate to a study on sv%?
 

haakon84

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How does this impact his personal number - sv%? I can see it affecting wins (i.e., they didn 't have as many offensive opportunities, so less goals for, so less wins) but how does this relate to a study on sv%?

First off it's from data available after '98. I'm sure if he would have used the data post-lockout he would have come to a very different conclusion.

TCG said:
More evidence of Martin Brodeur's upside-down career curve:
Brodeur, 1998-2004: .918 EV SV%, .916 league average
Brodeur, 2006-2009: .926 EV SV%, .918 league average

I really don't think it has anything to do with an upside-down career curve. It has much to do with his defense being worse and his puck-handling skills being handcuffed.

So again this is really just speculative data and just hints at a point you are trying to make. Which fails to take into PP or give any real data besides an algorithm he made up.

If you really need some evidence on this mans bias look no further than this quote on adjusted save %.

The formula also adjusts for goalies who were lucky or unlucky with shorthanded scoring chances against. Henrik Lundqvist and Cam Ward both had .916 save percentages last season. However, Lundqvist allowed 11 shorthanded goals against compared to Ward's 5, as the Rangers allowed a lot of shots and presumably a lot of scoring chances against on the power play. If we look at EV and PK play only, Lundqvist jumps to .919 while Ward falls to .915.

He just throws out 11 goals saying the goalie is lucky or unlucky?! My god talk about picking your spots.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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DISCLAIMERS

Even if it’s adjusted for era, save percentage has the following flaws:

1. Save percentage doesn’t take shot quality into account. A goalie might face more difficult shots due to playing more time shorthanded compared to average, playing behind a weak, risk-taking or injured defense, or facing tougher opponents than average.

2. Save percentage doesn’t take puckhandling into account. The contributions made by Brodeur and Belfour (among others) are understated.

First of all, congrats on the best attempt at making save % a more meaningful comparison that I have seen.

I think you should add another disclaimer though:

3. Save percentage assumes that the criteria of a "shot" is standardized throughout the league, and there is evidence that this is not the case:

http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=351

Stats aside, anyone who has watched the Devils on a regular basis can remember more than one first period where either team officially had 0, 1, or 2 shots, and Doc Emrick was laughing, "Well it certainly seems like they had more than that."
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I really don't think it has anything to do with an upside-down career curve. It has much to do with his defense being worse and his puck-handling skills being handcuffed.
.

I think it's both. I think Brodeur clearly got better - or at least more consistent - around 2002 or 2003. Before then, he was much more prone to letting in bad goals on mental lapses.


I know that it's been proven that for NHL goaltenders in general, save % does not go up as shots do. But it certainly seems that with Brodeur at least, his save % goes up when he faces more shots. Not just on a season by season basis, but also on a game by game basis.

I wonder if there is a correlation, where if a goalie faces an absurdly low number of shots (like dead puck era Brodeur or Ken Dryden), his save % tends to be lower. Or maybe it's something unique about Brodeur and the Devil's style.
 

overpass

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Jun 7, 2007
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If we look at pre-lockout and trapezoid I think it is very fair to say he prevented around 4 shots a game. Since Brodeur did not give up many goals in those seasons this would have a huge effect on his save %. Let's look at '97-'98 and Brodeur vs. Dunham.

Shots Allowed Per Game:
Brodeur: 22.8 shots allowed per game
Dunham: 26 shots allowed per game

Now when you factor in quality of opponents. Dunham faced below league average competition in his starts (78 points per game) yet allowed more shots per game. If the Devils were so stingy then you'd think they'd tighten up with their back up in net.

If we pro-rate Brodeur's save % with the added 4 shots a game that would leave him with 1788 shots against and a new save % of .927 (instead of .917). If we do this with the following 6 seasons it is around a .01 increase in save %. I don't think it would put the Devils as a below average defensive team either.

When you look at post-lockout New Jersey. It is fair to say they were in fact a below average defensive team (especially when you look at the names on defense). From '05-'08 they averaged an SRS of about 0. Meaning they were incredibly average. Brodeur's shot prevention made their defense look stronger than it was. I don't think it's unreasonable to say he prevents about 1-3 shots per game depending on replacement.

You also don't take into consideration face-offs and flow of the game I know the TCG is working on a study which better exemplifies this and I'm interesting to see where it leads. Brodeur tilted the ice to the opposition side allowing the Devils to have more shots for and against. If you look at when Hasek's teams shots for are close to or above their shots against, his save % drops.

I've compiled the numbers for Brodeur's shots against vs his backups' shots against, year by year, from hockey-reference.com. Here they are.

Year | Brodeur | Backups | Diff
1994 | 28.3 | 29.1 | -0.8
1995 | 24.9 | 25.3 | -0.3
1996 | 26.4 | 23.4 | 3.0
1997 | 25.5 | 27.1 | -1.6
1998 | 22.8 | 26.0 | -3.2
1999 | 24.5 | 24.3 | 0.2
2000 | 25.0 | 27.6 | -2.6
2001 | 24.6 | 22.5 | 2.1
2002 | 22.8 | 23.2 | -0.3
2003 | 23.4 | 21.8 | 1.6
2004 | 24.3 | 21.5 | 2.8
2006 | 28.9 | 28.2 | 0.7
2007 | 27.9 | 28.3 | -0.5
2008 | 27.0 | 28.0 | -0.9
2009 | 28.8 | 29.3 | -0.5
2010 | 26.6 | 28.3 | -1.7

I would not put too much weight on the results from any single year, save perhaps 1994 or 2009, because of sample size issues. I calculated a weighted average of the difference from each year. Here are the results.

Estimated impact of Martin Brodeur's puckhandling: -0.60 shots per game.
Estimated impact of Martin Brodeur's puckhandling (pre-lockout): -0.67 shots per game.
Estimated impact of Martin Brodeur's puckhandling (post-lockout): -0.39 shots per game.

A critique frequently leveled at this approach is that Brodeur usually faces tougher opponents. This is a fair criticism, and I examined this in a previous post for the years 1998-99 to 2008-09. I concluded that Brodeur faced slightly tougher teams than his backups, facing teams that took about 0.5 more shots per game on average. If we add this to the estimates above, it looks like Brodeur prevented about 1.1 shot per game on average.

If this estimate seems low (it does to Brodeur), it may be because you are implicitly comparing Brodeur against a hypothetical goalie who never handle the puck rather than against an NHL goalie. Also, remember that not every instance of a goalie playing the puck prevents a shot.

I think you should add another disclaimer though:

3. Save percentage assumes that the criteria of a "shot" is standardized throughout the league, and there is evidence that this is not the case:

http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=351

Stats aside, anyone who has watched the Devils on a regular basis can remember more than one first period where either team officially had 0, 1, or 2 shots, and Doc Emrick was laughing, "Well it certainly seems like they had more than that."

I also posted something about this in an earlier thread here. It does appear that New Jersey's home scorers record fewer shots. However, I'm not convinced of this effect yet, it could be that New Jersey purposely plays a different style of game as well. The other teams that have the largest observed decline in shots recorded at home over the past decade are Dallas, Minnesota, and Vancouver - all fairly defensive teams as well. If nothing else, the fact that these teams play with the lead more often at home may suppress total shots.

I know that it's been proven that for NHL goaltenders in general, save % does not go up as shots do. But it certainly seems that with Brodeur at least, his save % goes up when he faces more shots. Not just on a season by season basis, but also on a game by game basis.

I wonder if there is a correlation, where if a goalie faces an absurdly low number of shots (like dead puck era Brodeur or Ken Dryden), his save % tends to be lower. Or maybe it's something unique about Brodeur and the Devil's style.

This is the case for NHL goalies in general. It's most likely because of the fact that a good save percentage can cause shots against. When a team takes the lead - often because their goalie has had a good save percentage - the opposing team tends to start taking more shots that are of lower average quality. This means that 30-shot games tend to have higher average save percentages than 20-shot games.

At the same time, this effect does not appear to generalize to the season level. It appears to even out, as every goalie spends time playing while ahead or behind. If anything, it means that Brodeur's shot quality against may be lower on average, because he spends more time playing in the lead than most goalies.
 
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seventieslord

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First off it's from data available after '98. I'm sure if he would have used the data post-lockout he would have come to a very different conclusion.

I really don't think it has anything to do with an upside-down career curve. It has much to do with his defense being worse and his puck-handling skills being handcuffed.

So again this is really just speculative data and just hints at a point you are trying to make. Which fails to take into PP or give any real data besides an algorithm he made up.

That doesn't answer the question. We're talking about sv% as it relates to a goalie's ability to stop the puck. you brought up New Jersey's low number of PPs of their own. I asked what that had to do with it...

If you really need some evidence on this mans bias look no further than this quote on adjusted save %.

He just throws out 11 goals saying the goalie is lucky or unlucky?! My god talk about picking your spots.

There is no spot picking there. SHG are so random and so varied in the type of goal, as well as just plain rare, that the sample size doesn't really allow for good analysis. Look at sv% on SH shots around the league - The same goalies vary year by year - there is no pattern to it, no trends, no indication that anyone is any better. That's why he threw that stuff out. I, for one, am more concerned with the 97-98% of shots a goalie faces, that can be adequately analyzed, than the other 2-3% that can't.


If this estimate seems low (it does to Brodeur), it may be because you are implicitly comparing Brodeur against a hypothetical goalie who never handle the puck rather than against an NHL goalie.

This is what I keep trying to tell them!
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Throwing out short handed data does seem like it would hurt a puckhandling goalie slightly more than others.

One of Brodeur's biggest strengths is his ability to clear the zone himself while short handed.
 

Gunnar Stahl 30

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Dec 9, 2006
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the panthers score keeper should be given a vezina for his hard work in giving their goalies extra shots

take a look at how many panthers goalies are on the list. not a coincidence.

also, quality of shots is not taken into consideration when talking about sv% which is a huge flaw, just like the other statistics regarding goalies
 

Gunnar Stahl 30

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check out beeeezers sv% on FLA and with his other teams

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=5541

same story with luongo, alot less fluctuation with vancouver

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=26791

and vokoun

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=18609

but im not done

Shots Against per game for fla

09-10
29th

08-09
30th

07-08
30th

06-07
15th

05-06
29th

03-04
30th

02-03
23rd

01-02
29th

00-01
29th

99-00
23rd(23/28)

98-99
16th(16/27)

97-98
20th(20/26)

all stats have some major flaws. sv% is not exempt
 
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seventieslord

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Florida has always been a pretty poor defensive team, though. is it so hard to believe that they'd always allow high shot totals?
 

Gunnar Stahl 30

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Florida has always been a pretty poor defensive team, though. is it so hard to believe that they'd always allow high shot totals?

alot of teams have been pretty poor defensively and have finished below fla in terms of GA and in the standings in the past years, plus floridas defense isnt that bad this year, and peter deboer is a pretty good coach
 

Master_Of_Districts

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Throwing out short handed data does seem like it would hurt a puckhandling goalie slightly more than others.

One of Brodeur's biggest strengths is his ability to clear the zone himself while short handed.

The data that was excluded involved shots taken when the goalie's own team was on the powerplay, with the other team on the penalty kill.
 

haakon84

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Dec 14, 2003
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I've compiled the numbers for Brodeur's shots against vs his backups' shots against, year by year, from hockey-reference.com. Here they are.

Year | Brodeur | Backups | Diff
1994 | 28.3 | 29.1 | -0.8
1995 | 24.9 | 25.3 | -0.3
1996 | 26.4 | 23.4 | 3.0
1997 | 25.5 | 27.1 | -1.6
1998 | 22.8 | 26.0 | -3.2
1999 | 24.5 | 24.3 | 0.2
2000 | 25.0 | 27.6 | -2.6
2001 | 24.6 | 22.5 | 2.1
2002 | 22.8 | 23.2 | -0.3
2003 | 23.4 | 21.8 | 1.6
2004 | 24.3 | 21.5 | 2.8
2006 | 28.9 | 28.2 | 0.7
2007 | 27.9 | 28.3 | -0.5
2008 | 27.0 | 28.0 | -0.9
2009 | 28.8 | 29.3 | -0.5
2010 | 26.6 | 28.3 | -1.7

I really don't know why you are doing this by year and not by season. Upon first look I can tell you that 1996-1997 is off. In 1995-1996 Brodeur played in 90% of the teams games. Any backup samples I find irrelevant. 1994-1995 was a shortened season. I'm not sure where you came up with these calculations but in '96-'97 the Devils allowed 25.5 shots per game while Brodeur was in net and 27 shots per game while his back ups were in net. As I pointed out earlier in '97-'98 it was something very similar. The following three seasons Brodeur was very close in SAPG with Terreri but then you have to look at quality of opponent and save %. Post-lockout doesn't really interest me. I think Brodeur prevented less shots because of the new rules.
 
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Bear of Bad News

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A reminder to treat one another with respect, please. This isn't the main board - and the standards are higher here.
 

panorama01*

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Save percentage is, in my opinion, the best statistic to evaluate a goalie with. Every goaltending statistic (save percentage, wins, GAA, shutouts, etc) is influenced by the goalie’s team, however save percentage is less team-dependent than the others. I think this is intuitively obvious to anyone who studies goaltending, but I’ll explain if anybody’s curious.

The problem with save percentage is that it’s highly era-dependent. The purpose of this study is to adjust save percentage so that it’s comparable across seasons. I have data for 1983-2009.

Career Adjusted Save Percentage (min 400 games)

Goalie|Save Percentage
Dominik Hasek | 92.5%
Patrick Roy | 92.0%
Roberto Luongo | 91.7%
Martin Brodeur | 91.3%
Tomas Vokoun | 91.3%
John Vanbiesbrouck | 91.3%
Guy Hebert | 91.2%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere | 91.2%
Ed Belfour | 91.2%
Andy Moog | 91.1%
Kelly Hrudey | 91.1%
Daren Puppa | 91.1%
Curtis Joseph | 91.1%
Ron Hextall | 90.9%
Mike Richter | 90.9%
Martin Biron | 90.9%
Tom Barrasso | 90.9%
Evgeni Nabokov | 90.9%
Sean Burke | 90.9%
Marty Turco | 90.9%
Felix Potvin | 90.8%
Jon Casey | 90.8%
Dwayne Roloson | 90.8%
Bob Essensa | 90.8%
Mike Liut | 90.7%
Nikolai Khabibulin | 90.7%
Jeff Hackett | 90.7%
Jose Theodore | 90.6%
Chris Osgood | 90.6%
Olaf Kolzig | 90.5%
Don Beaupre | 90.5%
Jocelyn Thibault | 90.5%
Tommy Salo | 90.3%
Patrick Lalime | 90.3%
Grant Fuhr | 90.3%
Ron Tugnutt | 90.3%
Mike Vernon | 90.3%
Arturs Irbe | 90.3%
Glenn Healy | 90.2%
Ken Wregget | 90.1%
Greg Millen | 90.1%
Bill Ranford | 90.0%
Kirk McLean | 90.0%

Patrick Roy is incredibly underrated from a save percentage perspective. His peak occurred in the high-scoring late eighties and early nineties. He towered over his peers with almost Hasek-like dominance, but his raw numbers aren’t impressive because his played during an era that was very unfriendly to goalies. I often see people argue that Brodeur is better than Roy due to a higher save percentage. That would like comparing stats from an eighties player to a modern player, and concluding that the former was better. Adjusted for era, Roy was a significantly better regular season goalie than every goalie aside from Hasek in the past three decades.

About Patrick Roy... these days, Martin Brodeur is criticised in certain circles because of the New Jersey Devils' reputation. What people seem to forget now is that the Canadiens had that same reputation during the 1984-94 period. They were the best defensive team in the league and this is why Roy's statistics were so much better... I can think immediately of 1987-88 when they gave the Vezina to Fuhr when Roy's statistics were far better - I cannot help but conclude that the Canadiens' reputation had something to do with that, as well as the fact that they were worshipping Fuhr during that time over the Canada Cup and then his following it up by playing nearly the whole schedule...

In Montreal, Brian Hayward also had excellent statistics, and was arguably better in 1986-87 but not during the succeeding years. Hayward was pretty awful his last year in Winnipeg and I wondered if that would carry over in Montreal and it did not - the defence was really that good. Steve Penney, for whom Hayward was traded, was quickly out of the NHL and was clearly awful in Winnipeg.

I never got the impression that Roy was seen as the best until 1993... and his losing repeatedly to Andy Moog in the playoffs did not help his cause.
 

haakon84

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That doesn't answer the question. We're talking about sv% as it relates to a goalie's ability to stop the puck. you brought up New Jersey's low number of PPs of their own. I asked what that had to do with it...

Again you never answered the questions I asked you. You can not just dismiss data.


There is no spot picking there. SHG are so random and so varied in the type of goal, as well as just plain rare, that the sample size doesn't really allow for good analysis. Look at sv% on SH shots around the league - The same goalies vary year by year - there is no pattern to it, no trends, no indication that anyone is any better. That's why he threw that stuff out. I, for one, am more concerned with the 97-98% of shots a goalie faces, that can be adequately analyzed, than the other 2-3% that can't.

Yes that is spot picking. It wasn't rare for Lundqvist that year yet it was for Ward. What if Cam faced the same quality shots that Lundqvist had and just made the saves? If you don't agree. OK. Let's move on.


This is what I keep trying to tell them!

I trust my eyes more than your words. Again, let's move on.
 
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panorama01*

Guest
In 1985-86, the Canadiens were third in the NHL in fewest goals against, behind Philadelphia and Washington. These are the goaltending statistics.

Doug Soetaert 23 1215 56 2.77 11 7 2 477 0.895 0 3
Patrick Roy 47 2651 148 3.35 23 18 3 1037 0.875 0 1
Steve Penney 18 990 72 4.36 6 8 2 375 0.839 0 0


In 1986-87, the Soetart and Penney were gone and Brian Hayward was in. Hayward and Roy won the Jennings Trophy.

Brian Hayward 37 2178 102 2.81 19 13 4 855 0.893 2 1
Patrick Roy 46 2686 131 2.93 22 16 6 1073 0.891 6 1

In 1987-88, the goalies win the Jennings again. For the first time, Roy leads his team in save percentage.

Brian Hayward 39 2247 107 2.86 22 10 4 924 0.896 1 2
Patrick Roy 45 2586 125 2.90 23 12 9 1123 0.9 0 3
Vincent Riendeau 1 36 5 8.33 17 0.773 0

Another Jennings in 1988-89. Finally, Patrick Roy is established as the number one goalie in Montreal with a great year. He was only 23 years old.

Randy Exelby 1 3 0 0.00 1 1 0 0
Patrick Roy 48 2744 113 2.47 33 5 6 1113 0.908 2 4
Brian Hayward 36 2091 101 2.90 20 13 3 791 0.887 2 1

In 1989-90, the Montreal goalies lose the Jennings by two goals to Boston. Roy's numbers improve further.

Patrick Roy 54 3173 134 2.53 31 16 5 1390 0.912 2 3
Brian Hayward 29 1674 94 3.37 10 12 6 676 0.878 1 1
Andre Racicot 1 13 3 13.85 3 0.5 0 0

1990-91 - Hayward is gone, replaced by Jean-Claude Bergeron and later Andre Racicot. The Canadiens have the second fewest goals allowed, though Chicago held a significant advantage. Roy was injured in January and Racicot took his place as the starter.

Patrick Roy 48 2835 128 2.71 25 15 6 1234 0.906 3 1
Andre Racicot 21 975 52 3.20 7 9 2 427 0.891 1 1
Frederic Chabot 3 108 6 3.33 0 0 1 39 0.867 0 0
Jean-Claude Bergeron 18 941 59 3.76 7 6 2 367 0.862 0 0

In 1991-92, the Canadiens gave up only 207 goals. Roy spoke of wanting a GAA under 2... another Jennings. They brought Roland Melanson out of the minors after four years and after his injury, Andre Racicot was brought back to back up Roy.

Patrick Roy 67 3935 155 2.36 36 22 8 1651 0.914 7 5
Rollie Melanson 9 492 22 2.68 5 3 0 173 0.887 0 2
Andre Racicot 9 436 23 3.17 0 3 3 196 0.895 0 0

In 1992-93, with Jacques Demers replacing Pat Burns, the Canadiens openly tried to be more of an attacking team. The Canadiens finished fourth in the fewest goals against. Roy had by his recent standards a difficult regular season, perhaps not adjusting well to the more open play. That was corrected for the playoffs when play is closer anyway.

Frederic Chabot 1 40 1 1.50 18 0.947 0 0
Patrick Roy 62 3595 192 3.20 31 25 5 1622 0.894 5 2
Andre Racicot 26 1433 81 3.39 17 5 1 601 0.881 1 1


I think that Roy's situation in Montreal was very much like that of Brodeur in New Jersey - both benefited from superior defensive teams during most of their times there. Right now, the memory of the Devils and their trap and that team's reputation has caused people to qualify Brodeur's successes based on that and not Roy's as the Canadiens' reputation at the time has been forgotten. So, it may be a stretch anyway to compare Roy to Hasek in terms of dominating the league. Roy's reputation always will be for having brought unexpected Stanley Cups to Montreal, including one won when he was 20 years old.
 
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Mr Pipe

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OK, I am a newbie, but could you tell me, why s% is era-dependant? I shouldn't make any difference if you face 40 or a hundred shots, since it's already in percentile. I can see why goals scored are era dependant, a style or a philosphy should lead to more shots and thus increase or decrease goals, but the s% should remain the same. What am I overlooking?

Equipment changes.
 

seventieslord

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I really don't know why you are doing this by year and not by season. Upon first look I can tell you that 1996-1997 is off. In 1995-1996 Brodeur played in 90% of the teams games. Any backup samples I find irrelevant. 1994-1995 was a shortened season. I'm not sure where you came up with these calculations but in '96-'97 the Devils allowed 25.5 shots per game while Brodeur was in net and 27 shots per game while his back ups were in net. As I pointed out earlier in '97-'98 it was something very similar. The following three seasons Brodeur was very close in SAPG with Terreri but then you have to look at quality of opponent and save %. Post-lockout doesn't really interest me. I think Brodeur prevented less shots because of the new rules.

Considering it's not even 2010 yet, I'm pretty sure "2010" refers to the 2009-10 season.

Again you never answered the questions I asked you. You can not just dismiss data.

Your questions ("How much did they play even strength? Shots for? Shots against?") were rhetorical and not directed to me, they were directed to the producer of that study, if anyone. And I still don't see why it was relevant when the point of the study is that facing more powerplays will make your save% lower. Which is common sense.

Now, once again: What does the amount of time a goalie spends on the powerplay have to do with his save percentage? If you don't answer this question then I am going to assume your bringing this up was nothing but a filibuster tactic.

I trust my eyes more than your words. Again, let's move on.

You are trusting delusion.

Everyone knows Brodeur is the best at handling the puck. Many, many other goalies are great, too. Brodeur may appear to prevent 8 shots a game, but if an average goalie prevents 7, then his net prevention is one. You have now seen two studies that both estimate his shot prevention to be one per game. If you have some alternate data, produce it, otherwise, leave the math to the adults.
 

BM67

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If this estimate seems low (it does to Brodeur), it may be because you are implicitly comparing Brodeur against a hypothetical goalie who never handle the puck rather than against an NHL goalie. Also, remember that not every instance of a goalie playing the puck prevents a shot.

I have a little trouble believing in less than 2 rebounds a game, but there's another thing wrong with the conclusion drawn from the study. A rebound doesn't have to result in a quick shot to be a rebound. A shot wide off a rebound is still a rebound. A rebound that results in opponent possession is still a rebound even if they set up behind the net or on the boards, or pass back to the point, and get a shot more than 2 seconds later.
 

quoipourquoi

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4,126
Hockeytown, MI
I think that Roy's situation in Montreal was very much like that of Brodeur in New Jersey - both benefited from superior defensive teams during most of their times there. Right now, the memory of the Devils and their trap and that team's reputation has caused people to qualify Brodeur's successes based on that and not Roy's as the Canadiens' reputation at the time has been forgotten. So, it may be a stretch anyway to compare Roy to Hasek in terms of dominating the league. Roy's reputation always will be for having brought unexpected Stanley Cups to Montreal, including one won when he was 20 years old.

Where that parallel is lost is that starting in 1988-89, Roy became clearly the statistically-dominant goalie on both the Canadiens and the league as a whole. Brodeur never did that. While it's borderline impossible to rate him against his backups because of how little they played up until his injury in 2008-09, outside of a few years (1996-97), he wasn't setting the world on fire the way Roy was in Montreal. I know you were mostly going for the Burns tenure in your post, and for good reason, but 1993-94 was a pretty good year for Roy, and not so much for the other goalies in the bleu, blanc, et rouge.

If you look at the goalies who played somewhat regularly from 1995-96 to 2000-01 (a time period in which Roy never had the numbers to realistically challenge for any individual Vezina), Roy's cumulative save percentage is second to only Hasek's, and this time period wasn't behind a Pat Burns' defense; the Avalanche routinely allowed odd-man rushes when they had Roy in net, because they knew having him there meant that they could take more offensive chances, themselves. Once they went into lock-down mode after a rather mediocre defensive second-half of 2000-01, he was once again the league leader in GAA, Shutouts, and the runner-up in Save Percentage.

You say Roy's Canadiens reputation is largely forgotten, but I think the reason for that is that while playing behind Burns' Canadiens increased his numbers, playing behind the Avalanche (though it had the opposite impact on his numbers, particularly Save Percentage due to the Fuhr effect of odd-man rushes) immediately proved to people that he was more than just a beneficiary. Brodeur has never had the opportunity to do that, because to this day, the Devils have a good defensive system in place, and they used it to climb the standings with Clemmensen last year.
 

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