Adam Fox v Cale Makar

[Pavels Dog]

This is kind of like Lidstrom vs Neidermayer. Can't really go wrong with either.

It's really, really not.

I take Makar here quite easily, though I feel it's likely both are being a bit overrated in the big picture. Fox is almost 2 PPG in the last ~10-12 games, him and the team are on a tear. Neither player has put up ONE 82 game season, let alone multiple strung together, worth of being mentioned in the same breath as those guys.

 

[CptPicard]

Makar is the easy choice, doesnt mean that Fox is not a great player though

 

[TruePowerSlave]

This is kind of like Lidstrom vs Neidermayer. Can't really go wrong with either.

Except Niedermayer is not close to Lidström, you can go clearly wrong

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Except Niedermayer is not close to Lidström, you can go clearly wrong

I meant it as more of a stylistic comparison. Though we really haven't seen a defenseman as dynamic as Makar since . . . I don't know there's not a lot of comparables. Guys like Neidermayer, Coffey, Karlsson were all elite skaters, but they were smooth. Makar looks like he's about to pop out of his skates when he takes off.

Fox is equally difficult to place. Don't know if we've ever seen a player like him either.

 

[authentic]

I'll take Makar purely for the fact that his dynamism is special. Like we haven't seen a dman like him before special. But overall the difference between the two isn't huge and Fox has surpassed what I expected of him. I figured he'd be the best dman in the tier below Miro and Makar and be a solid 1D, but he's already an elite 1D.

Orr? Coffey? Karlsson?

 

[authentic]

I meant it as more of a stylistic comparison. Though we really haven't seen a defenseman as dynamic as Makar since . . . I don't know there's not a lot of comparables. Guys like Neidermayer, Coffey, Karlsson were all elite skaters, but they were smooth. Makar looks like he's about to pop out of his skates when he takes off.

Fox is equally difficult to place. Don't know if we've ever seen a player like him either.

Bobby Orr?

 

[Ignite111]

Why is this still open?

 

[authentic]

Except Niedermayer is not close to Lidström, you can go clearly wrong

Peak Niedermayer was pretty much as good, just didn't last half as long as Lidstrom's peak.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Why is this still open?

I know right? Fox AINEC

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

It's really, really not.

I take Makar here quite easily, though I feel it's likely both are being a bit overrated in the big picture. Fox is almost 2 PPG in the last ~10-12 games, him and the team are on a tear. Neither player has put up ONE 82 game season, let alone multiple strung together, worth of being mentioned in the same breath as those guys.

Just because a player hasn't had the opportunity to play a full season doesn't mean they aren't capable of it. I am willing to go on record that Fox will be a hall of famer when all is said and done. This is a special, special player.

Also, if you are going to discount Fox's hot streak, you have to balance that with the fact that he had an 11 game stretch earlier in the season where he registered only 2 assists and the Rangers couldn't buy a goal. If you look at his underlying numbers, nothing is unsustainable. His ES on ice sh% is actually lower this year than it was last year. He far outperformed the expected goals model last year. This year, he's only slightly outperforming xGF, which is typical for highly skilled playmakers like Fox.

So he's actually experiencing worse puck luck than last year and still dominating - he has 48 points in his last 47 games - 7 points ahead of Hedman who is 2nd in defenseman scoring over that time frame: NHL Stats

The kid is only 40 games into his sophomore season and he's already a career 60 point pace player (79p in 108gp), and that's with going pointless through his first 7 games. His average ice time during his rookie year was only 18:54. This year, it's 24:37. He was getting less than 2 mins of PP time a game last year. This year, he's over 4. So this jump in production might just be from him getting more ice time, especially on the PP.

His career scoring pace puts him 5th among all defenseman since 2000 (min 100 games played).

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Bobby Orr?

The game was so different then the comparison doesn't even make sense. And even then I'd say Orr was more of a Coffey/Neidermayer in terms of skating style. Makar skates like Mackinnon, it's crazy they are on the same team.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Orr? Coffey? Karlsson?

I mean in his skating. All those guys were elite skaters obviously but Coffey and were much more graceful and smooth in their skating where as Makar is similar to MacKinnon in the way he skates is so powerful. It's just so different than the usual type of skating we get from these dynamic defenseman.

 

[J bo Jeans]

The game was so different then the comparison doesn't even make sense. And even then I'd say Orr was more of a Coffey/Neidermayer in terms of skating style. Makar skates like Mackinnon, it's crazy they are on the same team.

hmm idk. Mackinnon is more of a horse galloping with power, I find Makar a to be a smoother skater.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

hmm idk. Mackinnon is more of a horse galloping with power, I find Makar a to be a smoother skater.

He's smoother than Mackinnon but he's still a "poppy" skater.



That whole video has some great clips of him jumping through the neutral zone, but the one I had it set to play at is the kind of skating I am referencing. He looks so much like Mackinnon it's uncanny, especially considering how unique of a skater Mackinnon already is. They both spring out of their skates as they accelerate and then transition into long, powerful strides.

 

[J bo Jeans]

He's smoother than Mackinnon but he's still a "poppy" skater.



That whole video has some great clips of him jumping through the neutral zone, but the one I had it set to play at is the kind of skating I am referencing. He looks so much like Mackinnon it's uncanny, especially considering how unique of a skater Mackinnon already is. They both spring out of their skates as they accelerate and then transition into long, powerful strides.

I agree he has a lot of the same pop. But I dont think anyone is as explosive as a skater as Mackinnon even Mcdavid.

 

[Ignite111]

I know right? Fox AINEC

Fox, Trouba, Miller, Smith. Any rangers defenseman really

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Fox is having a great season, but if I had to pick it would be Makar

 

[PAZ]

Not going to lie, i'm blown away by Fox this year - I didn't think he'd be able to keep up his play, but not only did he do that but he keeps getting better.

I still think Makar is ahead of the pack (ever so slightly), it'll be interesting to see how Makar, Heiskanen, Fox, (and to a lesser extent Dahlin and Hughes) develop in the next 5 years. All these defenseman have high hockey IQ, can skate, and are elite in transition - traits that are becoming increasingly important in today's game.

 

[Scorcho]

I don't know that Fox is better. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but the way the question is worded makes it easier for me to answer. Rangers can keep the player they already have. If Makar is slightly better, it doesn't matter. The NHL is not a video game. You don't trade your best players for a very slight upgrade.

this is not a trade proposal lol - its a who do you think is better and who would you pick if you were building a team from scratch kinda scenario lol


Makar easy.

 

[authentic]

hmm idk. Mackinnon is more of a horse galloping with power, I find Makar a to be a smoother skater.

Yeah same. I think he's closer to those guys mentioned than MacKinnon in skating style.

 

[Kupo]

I’m not upset that Fox is losing this poll. I don’t think most Rangers fans are either. The fact that you can mention his name in the same breath as Makar is a win itself.

Makar has that explosive element in his game that reminds me of Leetch. Fox is more cerebral. Two terrific, but very different dmen that have enormous ceilings.

 

[EXTRAS]

I think if you put both on a team like buffalo or Detroit makar would be more of a force. Both are supported by pretty amazing offensive teams atm though.

On Vancouver I'd take makar.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The kid is only 40 games into his sophomore season and he's already a career 60 point pace player (79p in 108gp), and that's with going pointless through his first 7 games. His average ice time during his rookie year was only 18:54. This year, it's 24:37. He was getting less than 2 mins of PP time a game last year. This year, he's over 4. So this jump in production might just be from him getting more ice time, especially on the PP.

And it remains to be seen if he can play ~25 minutes per game on a consistent basis for 82 games + playoffs while maintaining both the offense and the defense. This season is also weird as hell and generally shouldn't be extrapolated as perfect evidence of what players can do in normal years going forward. Less travel, playing the same opponents over and over (so if you own a team like Philly/Buffalo you can pile up the points).
Point being: he hasn't done it for a full season. It's not his fault he's not able to prove it in a normal season this year, but making lofty statements like comparing to Lidstrom/Niedermayer or penciling him into the HoF are the kind of things that could easily end up looking really, really bad in 1-2 years when the normal NHL grind has kicked in again.

Also, if you are going to discount Fox's hot streak, you have to balance that with the fact that he had an 11 game stretch earlier in the season where he registered only 2 assists and the Rangers couldn't buy a goal.

His career scoring pace puts him 5th among all defenseman since 2000 (min 100 games played).

... are you serious right now.

2 points in 11 games is a minor cold streak, ~20 points in 10 games is a massive hot streak that rarely happens even for a forward. Which one impacts his season and career numbers more given the season has only been 40 games and career only 100 games?

Hot streaks happen and it's a great sign for him, but this could easily be the moment in time that he has the highest career scoring pace he'll ever have, it could be the most points he ever has through 40 games played, the last 10-15 games could be the craziest scoring tear he ever has. Or it could not be. But odds are this isn't the pace he'll score at for the next 300-400 games so comparing him to players with 500+ games played is ridiculous. Especially given you make the "min 100 games played" criteria specifically to remove Makar, who could go pointless the next 15 games and still have a higher scoring rate through 100 games than Fox.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

And it remains to be seen if he can play ~25 minutes per game on a consistent basis for 82 games + playoffs while maintaining both the offense and the defense. This season is also weird as hell and generally shouldn't be extrapolated as perfect evidence of what players can do in normal years going forward. Less travel, playing the same opponents over and over (so if you own a team like Philly/Buffalo you can pile up the points).

You can say "it remains to be seen" but for me personally, I've seen enough to make the claims I have.

Point being: he hasn't done it for a full season. It's not his fault he's not able to prove it in a normal season this year, but making lofty statements like comparing to Lidstrom/Niedermayer or penciling him into the HoF are the kind of things that could easily end up looking really, really bad in 1-2 years when the normal NHL grind has kicked in again.

I'm quite aware of the risk. I'm not too concerned.

If you want to find a group of people who look really bad, go read through all the posts over the years where people doubted this kid.

Since you seem worried about looking bad in the future, I'd steer clear of doubting this kid.

... are you serious right now.

2 points in 11 games is a minor cold streak, ~20 points in 10 games is a massive hot streak that rarely happens even for a forward. Which one impacts his season and career numbers more given the season has only been 40 games and career only 100 games?

Hot streaks happen and it's a great sign for him, but this could easily be the moment in time that he has the highest career scoring pace he'll ever have, it could be the most points he ever has through 40 games played, the last 10-15 games could be the craziest scoring tear he ever has. Or it could not be. But odds are this isn't the pace he'll score at for the next 300-400 games so comparing him to players with 500+ games played is ridiculous.

2 points in 11 games is huge drought for a 65-70 point player. He had 30 points in the prior 37 games (67 point pace) while averaging only 20 mins a night and playing primarily on the 2nd PP unit.

He also started his career on a cold streak of 1 points in 9 games - the the fact that most of his career sample size is from a rookie year where he was underutilized more than offsets the fact that he's just wrapped up a hot steak, if you're concerned about it having undue weight on his career PPG.

Especially given you make the "min 100 games played" criteria specifically to remove Makar, who could go pointless the next 15 games and still have a higher scoring rate through 100 games than Fox.

Lol there was nothing intentional about it, I literally didn't even think about Makar at all when running the numbers. 100 games was just the largest round number that included Fox. I actually think Makar is the better offensive player, so wouldn't have any reason to intentionally exclude him lol.

 

[QJL]

Rangers fan picking Makar. His exceptional edges and straight line speed are the primary difference.

Makar should be a top 3 D in the league for the next decade, Fox top 10.