Speculation: Acq./Rost. Bldg./Cap/Lines etc. Part LXXV (Dog Days - Woof!) Galiev waived

[Calicaps]

previous: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2105053

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[trick9]

Not sure if i should laugh or cry after realising that even injured Braden Holtby is still far and away the best Playoff performer in this team.

The goal support he received in the Playoffs (again), was just brutal.

 

[g00n]

The irony of using a goaltending injury as an excuse when the other team was a goaltender that only got a chance because two other goaltenders got hurt amuses me greatly.

So a healthy goaltender is the same as a hurt one?

 

[RandyHolt]

Does any stat log first goals given up in first periods? Better yet, soft first goals.

There is a reason we gave up the first goal in countless games this spring. Holts seems to get a free pass, and it is blamed on "slow starts". Is he above slow starts?

Our team just seems to get deflated giving up early goals in game 6's and game 7's. Seems. My proof, we lose.


Oh, and Trotz...

Trotz said [recalling ellis] wasn’t because of the collision on Holtby the day before. “That wasn’t really a concern,” Trotz said. The Capitals just wanted an extra goaltender nearby in case of an injury during the game, so that they then wouldn’t have to fly someone in from Maine.

 

[txpd]

Does any stat log first goals given up in first periods? Better yet, soft first goals.

There is a reason we gave up the first goal in countless games this spring. Holts seems to get a free pass, and it is blamed on "slow starts". Is he above slow starts?

Our team just seems to get deflated giving up early goals in game 6's and game 7's. Seems. My proof, we lose.


Oh, and Trotz...

Usually, Holtby gets a pass for the Caps slow start is when they are outshot 10-2 in the first 5 minutes and the goal was scored as a result of a bad turnover or a blown coverage.

In g6 v the Pens Holts gives up a 40ft wrist shot from the wing angle. Something he wouldnt let in in warmups. You cant give that goal up on the road in an elimination game.

 

[trick9]

Does any stat log first goals given up in first periods? Better yet, soft first goals.

There is a reason we gave up the first goal in countless games this spring. Holts seems to get a free pass, and it is blamed on "slow starts". Is he above slow starts?

Our team just seems to get deflated giving up early goals in game 6's and game 7's. Seems. My proof, we lose.


Oh, and Trotz...

What? They gave up hardly any 1st period goals in these Playoffs compared to years past.

4 goals in 6 1st periods against the Penguins. They gave up the 1st goal in 2 of the 6 Playoff games against the Penguins, and 4 times they got the 1st goal in the games.

Against the Flyers they conceded 2 goals during the 1st periods. 1 one of those was in the game where they scored 6 unanswered goals after that and won 6-1.

6 goals against in 12 periods is ''countless amount'' now?

 

[RandyHolt]

6 goals against in 12 periods is ''countless amount'' now?

When I said spring, I should have said "post blizzard", sorry about that. Regardless, a president's team giving up so many first period goals as the playoffs were set to begin, was odd. I cannot recall ANY caps teams having that problem in 30 years.

Question for Holt's defense team - his all world playoff stats. How can we factor in that he played in VERY defensive systems while compiling these stats?

We talk of OUR scoring drying up. End of the discussion. Ahhh, no, not in the dog days of August. Problem with ending the discussion there is that THEIR scoring "dries" up, too.

Isn't lower scoring at both ends by design, where Hunts, <eventually> Bruce, and Trotz all wanted stifling defense? Get it deep, no risks, flip a coin, avoid "the big mistake" etc.

Does Holts get all the credit for those defensive systems, and zero blame, even when a harmless Asham slapper gets by in game 7? Until I see him playing 500+ hock in the loffs, I will discount the all worlds. Some of our biggest choke jobs were actually goalies stealing games. I wish there were stats that showed stolen games. The G is the most important position on the ice. They control more than anyone else what happens in every single game. It is G vs G. They have to match each other, save on top of save.

 

[Ridley Simon]

So a healthy goaltender is the same as a hurt one?

If people want to think that Holtby's injury didn't contribute to the Caps loss, then that's on them. It's easier to want "change" by blaming Trotz, and by blaming Orpik, and by blaming possession stats, and by blaming GMBM for his roster, etc etc etc

And for the love of Pete. If Holtby's injury isn't an acceptable REASON as to why the Caps lost, then why are all of the 4-5 other REASONS above that I listed are "ok"? Hypocrisy at its finest (I'm looking at you, HiveMind).

Seems to me that each and every reason has merit. But Holtby's injury certainly deflates the "team had no chance and this year will be no different without massive changes" mantra.

Again. Holtby was the Vezina winner. (Fluery wasnt, Murray wasn't, no one else was). Vezina winner is playing hurt..in his LEGS no less....and we dismiss that as not relevant? How exactly is that not relevant? Leagues best G isn't 100%. That's not relevant to the outcome of the series?

At least it's amusing.

 

[twabby]

If people want to think that Holtby's injury didn't contribute to the Caps loss, then that's on them. It's easier to want "change" by blaming Trotz, and by blaming Orpik, and by blaming possession stats, and by blaming GMBM for his roster, etc etc etc

And for the love of Pete. If Holtby's injury isn't an acceptable REASON as to why the Caps lost, then why are all of the 4-5 other REASONS above that I listed are "ok"? Hypocrisy at its finest (I'm looking at you, HiveMind).

Seems to me that each and every reason has merit. But Holtby's injury certainly deflates the "team had no chance and this year will be no different without massive changes" mantra.

Again. Holtby was the Vezina winner. (Fluery wasnt, Murray wasn't, no one else was). Vezina winner is playing hurt..in his LEGS no less....and we dismiss that as not relevant? How exactly is that not relevant? Leagues best G isn't 100%. That's not relevant to the outcome of the series?

At least it's amusing.

No one's saying the injury wasn't relevant (though the extent is unknown), but it's not something that can be controlled for. It's bad luck, not a weakness with the team that can be improved.

The bottom 6 forwards, Brooks Orpik, and poor offensive tactics at even strength are all weaknesses with the team that can be improved so that's why they are being discussed.

 

[txpd]

I am sure that Holtby was somewhat less effective as a result of the injury. Meanwhile, this news makes Oprik's suspension and double minor gaffes even more baffling from a guy supposedly the leader on defense.

We already know that Alzner was compromised. If Holtby was as well, Oprik would have known that. I really wonder what he was thinking.

 

[Hivemind]

Every team suffers injuries in the playoffs. It's a fact of life in the NHL. All management teams are cognizant of that. There is no team that's going to survive the grind of the playoffs without injuries, and the GM and coaching staff have to be aware of that fact while constructing the roster and deploying their system. If the team lacked the proper system/structure to cover up for Holtby's injury (or the skater depth to execute that system), the blame should absolutely be leveled at the same places it has been all along.

But I'm sure Holtby's mere .923 sv% against the Penguins totally excuses all others of blame for the series loss, right? I mean that's definitely not a higher sv% than Holtby posted in the regular season, despite playing 7 games against the most vaunted offensive team in the league over the 2nd half of the season and into the playoffs. I guess they should make no changes and hope that Holtby can post even better Vezina numbers in the post-season and simply pray that nobody gets hurt. Sounds reasonable, right?

 

[Hivemind]

The Caps need a player that does what Winnik does. They have less need for an extra offensive player.

PK specialists shouldn't cost $2.25M against the cap if they don't also provide scoring depth. Obviously a better investment than Brooks Laich, but that doesn't excuse Winnik's salary of prevent the Capitals from improving their roster. The fact that 50% of the currently projected bottom six has a combined 0 career playoff goals does not bode well for improving scoring depth.

 

[txpd]

every team suffers injuries in the playoffs. The nature of those injuries and to who is what makes the difference. The Caps could have survived injuries to Schmidt and Orlov a whole lot easier than to Orpik and Alzner. With Orpik suspended and Alzner trying to play thru a serious injury, it would have been helpful to have the goalie healthy.

 

[g00n]

I seem to recall the big complaint from those pointing the finger at Holtby was that he didn't "steal" key games in the Pens series--that he didn't come up with enough big saves and put on a Superman cape. The argument I and others made was that he played well enough for the Caps to win and I think the stats bear that out. It's to his credit that he did so well while injured, but it's also very possible that some of the more athletic saves (or ones that come from a general confidence which is potentially lessened while injured) didn't happen because he was hurt.

Bottom line: not Holtby's fault, we're fine in net

 

[Hivemind]

The Penguins started three different goaltenders during the playoffs. Letang was suspended one game against the Capitals. Trevor Daley and Olli Matta both missed significant chunks of the post-season due to injury.

 

[Caps8112]

Dont think its Holtbys fault for the slow starts. This team IMO for whatever reason has a laziness about it and its gone for several years now with players coming and going. Instead of a "I get to play hockey for money today for one of the best teams in the league" attitude its a "fine, if you guys make me play I will try really hard in the third period or when the game/series is already out of reach". For the guys on here that play Im sure you have been on a team that plays to the level of the competition. The caps IMO are somewhere between those two things. Caps looked dominant in the 3rd in game 6 against the pens and I believe a couple years ago against the rangers they absolutely dominated the entire game 6 at verizon (may have lost anyway). They just never seem ready to play.

 

[txpd]

I seem to recall the big complaint from those pointing the finger at Holtby was that he didn't "steal" key games in the Pens series--that he didn't come up with enough big saves and put on a Superman cape. The argument I and others made was that he played well enough for the Caps to win and I think the stats bear that out. It's to his credit that he did so well while injured, but it's also very possible that some of the more athletic saves (or ones that come from a general confidence which is potentially lessened while injured) didn't happen because he was hurt.

Bottom line: not Holtby's fault, we're fine in net

Playing well enough to win is often not enough to actually win and good enough to win is not Holtby's best game. So, was it his fault that they lost? No. Could he have done more to get them to the win? Yes.

The Caps made the finals one time. They dont make it with good enough to win goaltending.

 

[g00n]

Playing well enough to win is often not enough to actually win and good enough to win is not Holtby's best game. So, was it his fault that they lost? No. Could he have done more to get them to the win? Yes.

The Caps made the finals one time. They dont make it with good enough to win goaltending.

What? Good enough to win means exactly that. It means the goaltender did his job and it's up to others to finish it.

How do you know how much more he could've done? Isn't it also possible he performed at a level higher than even his injury might normally have dictated?

Could he have been better IF HEALTHY? Sure. Anything short of a shutout or fluke goals has that quality. Not really worth adding to the discussion since it's not reality.

 

[RandyHolt]

Dare I think Winnie will produce the odd point not playing with Mike 'ZippyO' Richards as his center man. Or in a different, more dynamic system.

Plus, how do we know that Trotz was stressing for him to score? Trotz seems like a grind the D kill the clock coach when it comes to offense from his bottom 6. You get punished more for being a minus versus the reward of a goal.

Maybe we should re-evaluate the points Wilson produced playing for Trotz. Willy embraced the defensive role which you know pleased Trotz, and was likely hamstrung by Zippy as well.

 

[Bananas]

I'm gonna go ahead and say beyond a shadow of a doubt:

Goaltending didn't cost us the Pens series...

Our skaters got outplayed and our coaches got outcoached...period.

 

[twabby]

Dare I think Winnie will produce the odd point not playing with Mike 'ZippyO' Richards as his center man. Or in a different, more dynamic system.

Plus, how do we know that Trotz was stressing for him to score? Trotz seems like a grind the D kill the clock coach when it comes to offense from his bottom 6. You get punished more for being a minus versus the reward of a goal.

Maybe we should re-evaluate the points Wilson produced playing for Trotz. Willy embraced the defensive role which you know pleased Trotz, and was likely hamstrung by Zippy as well.

Jay Beagle is also asked to play defense but he is still able to contribute a little bit offensively (6 goals and 5 assists in 49 playoff games is pretty good for a 4th line player).

There's no reason to be okay with Wilson and Winnik having 0 playoff goals because they are asked to play defense. They have received very neutral deployments against weaker competition. An odd goal here and there is needed for success. The Capitals may have beaten Pittsburgh if Fehr and Kuhnhackl didn't score the way they did, for example.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Every team suffers injuries in the playoffs. It's a fact of life in the NHL. All management teams are cognizant of that. There is no team that's going to survive the grind of the playoffs without injuries, and the GM and coaching staff have to be aware of that fact while constructing the roster and deploying their system. If the team lacked the proper system/structure to cover up for Holtby's injury (or the skater depth to execute that system), the blame should absolutely be leveled at the same places it has been all along.

But I'm sure Holtby's mere .923 sv% against the Penguins totally excuses all others of blame for the series loss, right? I mean that's definitely not a higher sv% than Holtby posted in the regular season, despite playing 7 games against the most vaunted offensive team in the league over the 2nd half of the season and into the playoffs. I guess they should make no changes and hope that Holtby can post even better Vezina numbers in the post-season and simply pray that nobody gets hurt. Sounds reasonable, right?

As reasonable as claiming the team has no chance as constructed, that Trotz can't win in the playoffs (or develop forwards at all), that GMBM is just a George clone, and that changes are needed everywhere.

Yes. Sounds about right.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I'm gonna go ahead and say beyond a shadow of a doubt:

Goaltending didn't cost us the Pens series...

Our skaters got outplayed and our coaches got outcoached...period.

That's bunk.

I love Holtby, but our 6m G got out-played by their 600k G. I think it's due to injury. I don't blame Holtby, at all. But to insist he wasn't part of the problem is disingenuous.

If he outplays Murray, Caps probably win series. That said, there are another half dozen places we could also make that claim.

Cullen v Richards
Orpik's play
Trotz's/teams approach for game 4
Kuznetsov's disappearance
Pens Puck Luck Goals (vs little for the Caps)
Etc etc

It's ALL relevant. My claims it's as simple as Holtby were made tongue in cheek as a means to show how silly all of the other claims are about why they lost, and about how the team needs to be totally changed.

Team is fine, I like where they are, and while I'd be happy if they could add another depth Vet/Scoring F to the team (or use Winnik's salary to add a truly viable top 6 F)......I'm not predicting doom and gloom like many other posters are.

Blaming the loss on Holtby, or his injury is silly. But no sillier than any of the other "blame game" crap we have going on right now.

 

[Hivemind]

As reasonable as claiming the team has no chance as constructed, that Trotz can't win in the playoffs (or develop forwards at all), that GMBM is just a George clone, and that changes are needed everywhere.

Yes. Sounds about right.

Good thing there's no one poster making all of those claims simultaneously. You're creating a frankenargument stitched together from several different posters. Ironically none of those arguments are mine, despite you calling me out by name in your previous post.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Good thing there's no one poster making all of those claims simultaneously. You're creating a frankenargument stitched together from several different posters. Ironically none of those arguments are mine, despite you calling me out by name in your previous post.

You are missing the point. You were one of the first to claim Holtby's injury had nothing to do with the team's loss to the Pens. You dismissed it, while citing your own reasons (whatever they may be). It doesn't much matter who is tied to which reason.

The entire premise is: there is no one reason. There are many. None of which should mean wholesale changes to the team, it's coaching structure, or its management.

If you disagree with that, then have at it.