Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XIV

[Teezax]

With "they" you mean GRRM?

YES I'll edit that.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Pretty much my feelings. It's very up and down.

Like I said in the last thread, though, they haven't really gone that far past ADWD. It'll be interesting to see what TWOW looks like if it does get finished before S7.

Feels like most of the season covered the cut Dance chapters and they have only gone a little ways into winds.

It is hard to guess how much actual plot is left in the books as opposed to world building, set up, and just descriptions.

 

[What the Faulk]

Feels like most of the season covered the cut Dance chapters and they have only gone a little ways into winds.

It is hard to guess how much actual plot is left in the books as opposed to world building, set up, and just descriptions.

Yeah, I can see TWOW inching past and soaring past, maybe both.

That's assuming we'll even get it before April 2017, which is maybe foolish to begin with.

 

[RandV]

It's clearly better than last season. They've avoided Dorne-level of bad writing which alone is a big improvement.

The pace is a bit too fast for my liking, but I understand their need to finish it sooner rather than later.

I would have liked a bit more complexity and nuances to the Ramsay vs. Stark story and more about the Iron Islands. It has felt a little rushed and lacking compared to the book events.

A little disappointed they couldn't make Tyrion's Meereen-trip more interesting.

I mentioned this in the TV show thread, but I felt they had an opportunity there that if they could have sped up Arya's Braavos storyline by a few episodes, a logical landing place for her back on Westeros could have been White Harbor. If she can convince Lord Manderly that she's Arya Stark, then they could feign loyalty to the Bolton's and join the battle at Winterfell ready to turn on Ramsay.

Now you have a scenario for the Starks to win without any help from Littlefinger & the Vale.

 

[Ainec]

Davos will look for Arya Stark instead of Rickon is what I'm guessing

 

[What the Faulk]

I mentioned this in the TV show thread, but I felt they had an opportunity there that if they could have sped up Arya's Braavos storyline by a few episodes, a logical landing place for her back on Westeros could have been White Harbor. If she can convince Lord Manderly that she's Arya Stark, then they could feign loyalty to the Bolton's and join the battle at Winterfell ready to turn on Ramsay.

Now you have a scenario for the Starks to win without any help from Littlefinger & the Vale.

I would have been totally on board with this especially if it meant that excruciatingly pointless stabbing and subsequent "cliffhanger" was erased.

 

[Blender]

I don't expect the next book to get much past the show. GRRM hasn't exactly been moving the plot that efficiently lately.

 

[Make]

I don't know wth happened to the Manderlys anyway. They namedropped them a couple of times, the casting call was leaked, it was 100 % Manderly but the obvious time to use him is now passed.

 

[CupInSIX]

Davos will look for Arya Stark instead of Rickon is what I'm guessing

Probably. Last seen at the Vale, I'm sure Lilfinger has some intel on a girl on horseback getting on a ship.

 

[MadDevil]

I don't expect the next book to get much past the show. GRRM hasn't exactly been moving the plot that efficiently lately.

The books also have more side plots going, so he's got to wrap those up at some point as well. Although I have to wonder how much motivation he's going to have if the end of the series is going to be on TV before the books are finished.

 

[Make]

I mentioned this in the TV show thread, but I felt they had an opportunity there that if they could have sped up Arya's Braavos storyline by a few episodes, a logical landing place for her back on Westeros could have been White Harbor. If she can convince Lord Manderly that she's Arya Stark, then they could feign loyalty to the Bolton's and join the battle at Winterfell ready to turn on Ramsay.

Now you have a scenario for the Starks to win without any help from Littlefinger & the Vale.

I kind of like this idea, and I wonder if they could have gone as far as playing out the Davos at White Harbor-story with Arya replacing Davos? Arya makes his way to Manderly's court, reveals her identetity, we witness the "mummer's farce" of everyone swearing fealty to the Boltons (whose troops could perhaps be present there, forcing the Manderly's hand), Arya is imprisoned, death fakeout (this would be really tricky), and eventually Manderly meets Arya and we learn the truth with "north remembers". This would have to happen side by side with the battle of the ******* so that we won't be 100 % sure someone will save Jon.

Don't know, just some fan fiction I came up with on top of your idea, with respects to one of the best scenes in Dance The real tricky part would be to fake Arya's death convincingly. She has so much plot armor at this point, but death by a failed power play would be more in line with how characters die in GoT world than, say, being stabbed in Braavos.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

It's clearly better than last season. They've avoided Dorne-level of bad writing which alone is a big improvement.

The first episode of this season consisted of the Snakes and Ellaria killing off Doran and his one and only Heir because their pissed that Oberyn was killed by the Lannisters in a fair fight, and noe this illogical decision has somehow gained them the ability to rule Dorne without anyone else caring about what they just did.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The books also have more side plots going, so he's got to wrap those up at some point as well. Although I have to wonder how much motivation he's going to have if the end of the series is going to be on TV before the books are finished.

I wouldn't be shocked if George is not as motivated to finish the story, and is more interested in world building while telling other stories.

Tieing all these side plots up in any kind of satisfying way must be a chore at this point.

 

[What the Faulk]

He didn't write 5 books over 20 something years just to give up at the start of Act 4

The first episode of this season consisted of the Snakes and Ellaria killing off Doran and his one and only Heir because their pissed that Oberyn was killed by the Lannisters in a fair fight, and noe this illogical decision has somehow gained them the ability to rule Dorne without anyone else caring about what they just did.

Yeah but we haven't seen them since. I really do think they realized their failings with Dorne and this was their effort to kill that storyline. It's still really stupid, but they had to give us something.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The issue I have with the show in season 5 is that it just feels like they could have done more with it.

My biggest issues:

- The battle of the North was nice, but he build-up was rushed
- Riverrun storyline only to see Brynden Tully die off-screen
- Arya's endless training resulting in her just leaving
- Daenerys with backlash no. 674

Someone pointed out none of the storylines actually moved in 8 episodes and that is my real issue. With so many static storylines, they could have fleshed it out a bit more.

 

[Warden of the North]

Just realized we should get the confirmation of R+L=J in ep 10. Long time coming

 

[Blender]

The first episode of this season consisted of the Snakes and Ellaria killing off Doran and his one and only Heir because their pissed that Oberyn was killed by the Lannisters in a fair fight, and noe this illogical decision has somehow gained them the ability to rule Dorne without anyone else caring about what they just did.

I think Dorne is the worst thing this show has ever done, and the rushed conclusion to it was just as bad, but you're not quite being accurate here. They took out Doran and took over because Dorne has been acted against, disrespected, and considered a nothing power since Robert's Rebellion, and Doran's only interest was maintaining the status quo. Ellaria wants Dorne to be a power so that other houses won't walk all over them like Doran has let them. It's less about the specific deaths and more with years of being exploited without answer.

 

[ap3x]

That's why they should have brought that fire + blood speech in - and build up to it appropriately. They decided to do not and made everything worse.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

I think all of these issues with Game of Thrones (Dorne, pacing, Iron Isles, et cetra) could have been solved via more episodes and frankly better management of the budget.

 

[kdb209]

For the Euron fans out there ...

The folks at Boiled Leather have done an interesting discussion of the latest Winds sample chapter.

BLAH 50 | Aeron, Euron, It’s On

It's nice to get into material that almost certainly will not make it into the TV show.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

How did Littlefinger get past Moat Cailin?
Why didn't Sansa say a single word to Jon about the Vale?
Where was Sansa during the battle?
When and how did Littlefinger contact her?
Did the Karstark leader get killed?
Why did Rickon run in a straight line?

So many questions...

 

[Punchbowl]

How did Littlefinger get past Moat Cailin?
Why didn't Sansa say a single word to Jon about the Vale?
Where was Sansa during the battle?
When and how did Littlefinger contact her?
Did the Karstark leader get killed?
Why did Rickon run in a straight line?

So many questions...

Not sure if you're serious (?) but most of that imo is just the show writers saving time and wanting to elevate the drama of LF's "surprise" return, e.g. getting past Moat Cailin, Sansa not mentioning them, Sansa not appearing, LF not contacting her. Some details just aren't interesting relative to the fantastic battle scene.

The episode was already long and show-only viewers don't care about smaller details. Karstark may show up in the next episode or may have been killed offscreen, in which case they likely didn't bother taking time for the death of a minor show character.


Why did Rickon run in a straight line? He's a cold, starved, and terrified little boy (11 years old despite the actor's age) and likely wasn't thinking clearly.

This was a criticism I shared, though, Rickon has spent time escaping Winterfell and likely wouldn't even be capable of running in a straight line. Also, if Ramsay ****s the shot up (or it doesn't kill Rickon) then he's just delivered the heir of Winterfell into the hands of the enemy. At that point, Jon's army has a claim to the North that is pretty iron-clad. It wouldn't have taken much to just show Ramsay signal his boys to join him for the final shot to make sure one of them got the kill.


I really enjoyed the episode and my only criticisms are so minor they aren't even really worth mentioning.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

Moat Cailin is supposed to be the only way to the North, and it's supposed to be impenetrable. Even Roose could not bring his army north. The Boltons were holding it since recapuring it from the Ironborn. That's not just saving time, it's bad writing.

 

[CupInSIX]

Moat Cailin is supposed to be the only way to the North, and it's supposed to be impenetrable. Even Roose could not bring his army north. The Boltons were holding it since recapuring it from the Ironborn. That's not just saving time, it's bad writing.

Didn't he say he took Moat Cailin in Episode 4?

 

[Psyfer]

Moat Cailin is supposed to be the only way to the North, and it's supposed to be impenetrable. Even Roose could not bring his army north. The Boltons were holding it since recapuring it from the Ironborn. That's not just saving time, it's bad writing.

It's not impenetrable it's only very difficult to take from the south when fully manned, we don't know how many men Ramsey left.

Also there is the possibility he came by sea and attacked from the North, the Manderly's don't seem to support the Bolton's, so its possible that he could have allied with Sansa/LF and allowed his troops to come via White Harbor and then take Moat Cailin from the north where it's quite weak.