Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XIV

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[Warden of the North]

Just finished Ep 9, what a spectacular episode!

Probably doesnt fit book lore about Direwolves and dogs, but I would have loved it if Sansa told Ramsey "They have a new leader now" and Ghost lead his dogs out.

Curious how things are going to work out in the North now. Do the remaining northern houses return to the Stark banner?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I was so hoping that Ghost was the one who finished him off but I guess it was more poetic with Ramsay's own dogs....

 

[Emperoreddy]

Just finished Ep 9, what a spectacular episode!

Probably doesnt fit book lore about Direwolves and dogs, but I would have loved it if Sansa told Ramsey "They have a new leader now" and Ghost lead his dogs out.

Curious how things are going to work out in the North now. Do the remaining northern houses return to the Stark banner?

I imagine it might take some more work to win everyone over. They don't have to fear the Boltons anymore, but there isn't a ton of reason to become banner men to the Starks again.

Jon and Sansa need the North to rally now though as their army was decimated.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So I know some people were wondering if the gate at Winterfell is as big as it should be...I think it's fine.

There's a gate in the Theodosian Walls around Constantinople, the greatest fortification in the ancient/medieval world, made obsolete only by gunpowder. They survived 18 major sieges; fell once due to political turmoil, and the final time due to a cannon the size of a house (Actually, the cannon didn't technically do it, a jerk forgetting to lock a gate did.).


Winterfell:

It's a bit smaller. But about right. You don't actually want your gate to be big. The bigger it is, the bigger the weakness in your wall. Also, there should be at least two barriers at Winterfell if it's supposed to be such a formidable fortress, so that is an oversight. That section of the Theodosian Wall looks to be missing the outer gate.

 

[Mrb1p]

So I know some people were wondering if the gate at Winterfell is as big as it should be...I think it's fine.

There's a gate in the Theodosian Walls around Constantinople, the greatest fortification in the ancient/medieval world, made obsolete only by gunpowder. They survived 18 major sieges; fell once due to political turmoil, and the final time due to a cannon the size of a house (Actually, the cannon didn't technically do it, a jerk forgetting to lock a gate did.).


Winterfell:

It's a bit smaller. But about right. You don't actually want your gate to be big. The bigger it is, the bigger the weakness in your wall. Also, there should be at least two barriers at Winterfell if it's supposed to be such a formidable fortress, so that is an oversight. That section of the Theodosian Wall looks to be missing the outer gate.

Nobody really cares about the size of the gate, it needs to be big enough to have a cart pass through and thats pretty much it.

It's the lack of a moat, a draw bridge, a metal gate or some kind of fortification that is bugging people.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Nobody really cares about the size of the gate, it needs to be big enough to have a cart pass through and thats pretty much it.

It's the lack of a moat, a draw bridge, a metal gate or some kind of fortification that is bugging people.

If we were going for pure realism the battle would of lasted multiple days.

To use the above example of Constantinople. The Ottomans battled for long periods over control of the dry moat outside of the walls. They would attack at night and start filling it in with rock, wood, and dirt for the eventual final attack. Not really something that would translate to screen.

Also many stone castles in the later medieval periods didn't have moats. They were usually built on bedrock, and didn't feature the raised earthen mounds (which is where the original moats came from) that the older wooden castles had.

Edit: Winterfell in the books does have a moat surrounded by two walls. Show Winterfell has never had this, at least it has never been shown.

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

it seems like 11 episodes isn't enough time to wrap up every plotline that's left.

 

[KesselBuiltMyHotrod]

it seems like 11 episodes isn't enough time to wrap up every plotline that's left.

That is because there's 8

 

[Emperoreddy]

That is because there's 8

Wait there is 14 episodes left

 

[What the Faulk]

Any number is just a guess. Nobody actually knows. I think the last thing D&D commented on was trying to finish in 7 but there's been talks about a 13 episode two-part season, which sounds like an awful idea. Just finish in 8.

 

[Sakicfan]

Strongly disagree, and I think you simply missed a scene or two. The directors/writers actually studied military history AND used the strengths/weaknesses of all existing characters established to execute an almost perfect battle. I'll repost my post from the other thread:

Jon and Davos' strategy was the same one that Hannibal used to defeat the bigger and more disciplined Roman army. (Battle of Cannae) Given that Ramsey had the numbers, they assumed he would just charge them down the middle, and they were going to relent/fall back in the middle...while also enveloping/surrounding Ramsey in the process.

Alas, like Sansa predicted, Ramsey had a cruel trick up his sleeve. By using Rickon as a trap, he forced Jon to make his charge...which forced Tormund to abandon the plan and charge in to try to save Jon...thus playing right into Ramsey's trap.

As I'd mentioned before, Davos also lost his patience and charged in, which also played into Ramsey's hands, as Davos was meant to be the reserve that could bail out a flank in case they were being routed or surrounded.


This was very intelligently designed by D&D, and I'm disappointed that a lot of people missed the nuances of this battle.

The producers "studying" the Battle of Cannae and the Battle of Agincourt does not make any of these tactics particularly smart or interesting. If they indeed study thoroughly these battles, then they failed to incorporate their learnings in the show.

The use of the forces was also puzzling. Ramsay had well trained and geared spearmen who were capable of flawlessly employing a sort of phalanx formation. This is the perfect weapon to crush the opponent's cavalry. Instead, he sends his precious cavalry head-on to Jon's.... And then showers them with arrows, killing more of his own then Jon's.

I understand that Ramsay has the bigger army and thus, killing his own men is not a catastrophic thing to do as long as he kills approximately one wildling for every man from his army that dies (and as long as his own men don't turn on him). The problem is, Ramsay could not afford to lose a lot of men. He knows that Northern lords don't really like him. As noted by Roose in the show, he knows that the Lannisters and Tyrells are eventually going to fight him because of his betrayal. He knows that the Freys will probably join the Lannisters+Tyrells attack because he killed Walder Frey's granddaughter. He needs as many men as possible.

Now, you can answer to that point that Ramsay believes he is better than everyone else and thus does not worry about the Northern Lords and the Lannisters/Tyrells/Freys. That is actually true, but it just confirms the fact that Ramsay is an idiot and that his strategy for this battle was stupid. The only reason he killed his own men was so that the massive wall of corpses could appear out of nowhere. I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculously dumb thing that looks like it is taken directly out of Zach Snyder's 300. Mounds of bodies do not appear like that on the field in the middle of a battle. It is true that there was a wall of corpses that played an important role during the Battle of Agrincourt, but that was due to the particularity of the field where the battle happened. The wall of bodies built up in a narrow path, while in the show, it appeared in a completely opened field.

So, to sum up, Ramsay's strategy was:

1. Lure Jon into a trap with Rickon. Excluding the fact that publicly killing Ned Stark's innocent child in front of Northern Lords is a big No-no, this is rather sensible.
2. Once Jon falls into the trap, send his entire cavalry. I get it, instead of only sending a small portion of his cavalry to kill Jon, he sends all of them because he wants to create the wall of corpses.
3. Kill every in the No man's land so he can build a wall of corpses. I explained why this is a stupid and completely unrealistic move.
4. Use the wall and his Macedonian phalanx to surrond the enemies and crush them.

This sounds like a rather convoluted tactics that rely on a bunch of things going perfectly well for it to work. If Ramsay had the good sense to use a normal and reasonable array with a much sensible plan, he would have crushed Jon with significantly fewer losses and may have even been able to react to the Vale forces' sudden intervention, which would have allowed him to preserve the bulk of his forces and retreat back to Winterfell.

Now, as for Jon's sides, the idea of digging up the trenches to trap Ramsay's army ala Hannibal is conceptually good. However, for it to work, he needs Ramsay to charge them directly in the centre and Ramsay was not going to do that. He has the higher grounds and Winterfell behind him, Ramsay has no reason to charge first. They did acknowledge that they needed to find a way to make Ramsay angry so he would charge, but they came up with nothing (unless I missed a scene or they came up with something offscreen). Therefore, the trenches were conceptually a good idea, but the chances of being able to execute it were rather slim. Good tactics designs mean nothing if you can't execute them during the battle.

Then, Jon makes the biggest mistake of the episode and charges to try to save Rickon. I'm okay with this, I get that this is a very emotionnal moment for Jon and that he has always been an idiot, but from now on, you cannot say he is a good military commander. Any competent military commander is not susceptible to commit such a blunder.

This is followed by Tormund and Davos both loosing their cool and charging in with anyone (another mistake). Ramsay's infantery somehow proceeds to surround Jon's army. You have to be a real idiot to let an heavy infantry surround you like that. Rewatching the scene, everyone just stand there and watches while they get surrounded. This shows you that such a maneuver would be impossible to put off in real life.

In short, Ramsay's plan relied on Jon falling into an obvious trap and then on two magical things to happened: the mounds of bodies and its infantry being fast enough to surrounds Jon's army around the corpses. With a bigger army, the high grounds and Winterfell, this is such an overconvoluted plan that has no real shot of succeeding and will only result in more dead soldiers from his army. Jon's plan relied on Ramsay being an noobie and charging them when he has no reason to do so. He then ditches this plan to fall in an obvious trap. Both sides were written as complete idiots simply so they could get the cool shots of the mounts of bodies and the Vale army coming in to save the surrounded army.

I get that they cannot incorporate every details of military warfare in the show (for example, the opening battle arrays on both sides were seriously flawed and made no sense, but who cares about that), but I just would like for them to write at least once battle tactics that are actually sensible and that make sense. I can understand that they don't really care about putting in realistic warfare strategies in the show, but don't tell me that this was an intelligently designed battle full of nuances.

Davos is a smuggler turned solider who knows battle tactics in the water. Tormund can fight but isn't a battle strategist, that was Mance's job. Jon read stories I'm sure but Alliser Thorne did most of the defense in the show at Castle Black but Jon did take over but that was against a siege, not open warfare.

Not exactly terrific minds at work here.

And the other side is Ramsey, not his father Roose Bolton. Ramsey was smart in sabotaging Stannis and then getting him while he was at his weakest. He used pikes against the giant, drew Jon in with a trap. He would have won if he didn't waste his cavalry by killing them himself, but he went all in trying to kill Jon and obviously set up a perimeter to see the Vale coming but no one knew that card except Sansa.

There's definitely a lack of strategists at this point, it's the new generation learning.

Wish the Blackfish was there. He helped Rob tremendously.

See, I would agree with this point (however, I'll like to add that Jon got most of his military training from Ned, as Robb did) if they didn't portrayed the "greatest military commander in Westeros" as a bumbling idiot in season 5. I think they just don't care.

What information did she have that would change anything?

Jon: Here is the best plan we have for the situation.

Sansa: I went behind your back. I wrote the Vale for help. I have no idea if they're coming.

Jon: Well, that changed nothing. This plan remains the best plan for the situation.

And sure, Jon is nominally the leader, but let's not pretend that Sansa isn't playing her own game. She's been mentored, whether she wanted it or not, by the Lannisters and Littlefinger, the two most devious factions. She's been acting just like someone who's had to learn to navigate and survive their machinations.

Jon can send scouts south of Winterfell to see whether the Vale was coming or not. It would have only needed a couple of men and horses. And he can wait for a few days/weeks to get an answer. Once he learns that the Vale is coming, then he can go talk to Ramsay, tells him that he now has the bigger army (by a lot) and offer some deal with Ramsay so that he get Rickon alive. Something like "Hey Ramsay, now I have an army that is four or five times bigger than yours, so give me Rickon back and I'll let you go back to the Dreadfort". Ramsay might rejet the terms, but it is better than to do nothing like she did.

The only way it makes Sansa to keep that intel for herself is if she wanted Rickon to die so she can become the Queen in the North. I guess it is possible and it would make things interesting, but I'm not confident it will happen. We'll see next week.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Cavalry vs cavalry was common in ancient and medieval battles. Using your pikemen to defend against cavalry is inferior to driving them off the field with your own.

 

[silverfish]

Can't believe Ghost wasn't involved in the battle at all.

CGI budgets are a *****

 

[tacogeoff]

Can't believe Ghost wasn't involved in the battle at all.

CGI budgets are a *****

They probably have bigger plans for ghost. I think realistically ghost would of had to follow Jon out onto the field as he has been his protector in certain parts of the tv series and would of fell to a volley of arrows or have been trampled by the horses etc. Jon having plot armor as there is future plans for him is one thing but if ghost survived the chaos it may of been a bit too much. just my opinion. but I do agree it would of been awesome to see him out there. and someone should of cut down a tree for wun wun before the battle as other posters have said

 

[silverfish]

They probably have bigger plans for ghost. I think realistically ghost would of had to follow Jon out onto the field as he has been his protector in certain parts of the tv series and would of fell to a volley of arrows or have been trampled by the horses etc. Jon having plot armor as there is future plans for him is one thing but if ghost survived the chaos it may of been a bit too much. just my opinion. but I do agree it would of been awesome to see him out there. and someone should of cut down a tree for wun wun before the battle as other posters have said

I mean, even if they had him standing by Sansa, and then running after Jon when he went into Winterfell with Wun Wun.

The fact that he just doesn't exist is annoying to me. Could be just me, though.

 

[tacogeoff]

I mean, even if they had him standing by Sansa, and then running after Jon when he went into Winterfell with Wun Wun.

The fact that he just doesn't exist is annoying to me. Could be just me, though.

No its not just you. I don't think we have seen Ghost since castle black? it does make you wonder where he is and why he isn't involved and where jon is stashing him away.


#FreeGhost

 

[silverfish]

No its not just you. I don't think we have seen Ghost since castle black? it does make you wonder where he is and why he isn't involved and where jon is stashing him away.


#FreeGhost

The Direwolves in this show essentially serve no purpose, which is just odd.

Grey Wind was a monster for Robb on the battlefield. Don't really see that in the show.
Lady - well, didn't really get a chance
Nymeria - Think she ever appears again in the show? Doubt it. Most show watchers probably don't even remember that Arya has a wolf
Summer - Idiot, but saved Bran
Shaggydog - Probably saw a similar demise as Grey Wind
Ghost - There to remind us, twice a season, that the direwolves exist and nothing more.

No way Jon goes to battle without Ghost.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Bolton using his cavalry to attack more or less makes sense. His goal was to kill the opposing commander who was all alone in the center of the field of battle. If he sends in his heavy infantry to attack, odds are very good that Jon Snow recovers his self control enough to return to his own lines and the whole Rickon affair becomes pointless.

As noted though, the rest of the battle doesn't make any realistic sense. The phalanx is completely the wrong force to pull off the envelopement (apparently they were originally going to do the correct thing and have the Bolton cavalry as the flankers but that was impossible to do with their budget). A wall of bodies can happen on the battlefield, but only if there is a fixed point in the fighting for them to pile up, an open order battle between the Starks and the Bolton cavalry would have bodies all over the place rather than a single mound.

Ramsey's plan also depended on Davos getting a moment of plot induced stupitity and rushing in with the only Stark reserves, which his archers represented. The man point of a rear line is to bail out the main force from the kind of flanking move that the Bolton phalanx was doing. This is of course in addition to the Stark infantry just sitting there like idiots rather than reacting to the slower moving heavy infantry surrounding them (this might possibly be excused if the Bolton foot pulled the manuever while the Starks were occupied fighting the Bolton horse, but that wasn't what was depicted on screen.)


So this all feeds to the general reaction to the battle. Incredibly well visualized, unbelievably stupid tactics.

Personally, I would have liked it a lot better if part of the Bolton force finally having enough of Ramsey's shenanigans and switching sides to give the Starks the win. Forces switching sides in battle was actually pretty common in the Wars of the Roses which was the original historical basis for the series and it fits pretty well into the logical consequences of Ramsey's actions being temporarily effective as people aren't prepared for his brutality but stupid in the long run. This would be the kind of defeat Roose wouldn't have suffered as he knew how to play the long game and not be so horrible that people had to turn against him. The order to shoot his own men in the field would have been a great point to have that happen.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Can't believe Ghost wasn't involved in the battle at all.

CGI budgets are a *****

does explain why the other episodes lacked some battles

they were waiting to blow the budget on 9 and 10

 

[Bad News Benning]

The Direwolves in this show essentially serve no purpose, which is just odd.

Grey Wind was a monster for Robb on the battlefield. Don't really see that in the show.
Lady - well, didn't really get a chance
Nymeria - Think she ever appears again in the show? Doubt it. Most show watchers probably don't even remember that Arya has a wolf
Summer - Idiot, but saved Bran
Shaggydog - Probably saw a similar demise as Grey Wind
Ghost - There to remind us, twice a season, that the direwolves exist and nothing more.

No way Jon goes to battle without Ghost.

im wondering if Nymeria has a wolf pack of her own now. Maybe her pack saves Arya from danger at some point and we have a cheesy Nymeria/Arya reunion.

 

[silverfish]

im wondering if Nymeria has a wolf pack of her own now. Maybe her pack saves Arya from danger at some point and we have a cheesy Nymeria/Arya reunion.

In the books? Definitely.

In the show? Given their reluctance to even show Ghost... I really don't know what their plan is.

 

[Ainec]

who cares about Ghost. Why was my bloodhounds not let loose in the battle of snow

 

[RandV]

The producers "studying" the Battle of Cannae and the Battle of Agincourt does not make any of these tactics particularly smart or interesting. If they indeed study thoroughly these battles, then they failed to incorporate their learnings in the show.

<snip>

Good post. My two cents that I'd add is that:

1) In that behind the scenes video a lot of what they did was for budget purposes. A wall of corpses was used because they couldn't afford or pull it off with horses, and the idea was to have everyone in close and obstruct the broader view of the field of battle.

2) Rather than just reading up on history, D&D may have been better served playing some Total War.

I think that's what bugs me most about it. I'm less a historian and more a strategy gamer, so that 'battle' as impressive as it was from a filming perspective was hitting all sorts of triggers in my head

 

[silverfish]

who cares about Ghost. Why was my bloodhounds not let loose in the battle of snow

Thought for sure Ramsay was going to send the dogs after Rickon, but I suppose they'd have gotten to him too quick, and Jon wouldn't have been drawn out far enough into the open.

He also passed up a wide-open shot at Jon instead opting to take out Wun Wun, but ya know, plot.