A SERIOUS DISCUSSION - Riley Nash

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Time for Rick Nash's cousin Riley. After Nash, the discussions get a bit more interesting with Semin, Skinner, Staal, Staal and Tlusty all coming up.

Riley Nash
Age: 25
6'1", 200lbs
NHL Career:
110 GP, 14G, 20A, -3, 11.3% SH%,
Last year: 73GP, 10G, 14A, +/- 0, -0.4 Corsi Rel.

After a career year where Nash solidified himself on the 3rd line (albeit a non-optimal solution on a weak offensive team) and started to show some chemistry with Skinner and Lindholm, can he take the next step and become an even more effective 3rd line C? Or is he really a 4th liner in 3rd line sheep's clothing? Will there be any better options with someone stepping up to take that spot (Lindholm, Rask, etc..)?

What are your expectations for this year and where do you see him slotted?

DISCUSS!

Click to read more...

 

[bleedgreen]

He needs to define himself this year. I think he's a pretty strong boards player, and makes smart decision possession wise, especially in his own end. The minor flashes of offense were nice to see but he's gotta take it up a notch for us to count on him for the third spot. That third line center is our biggest question mark up front. It could be the difference between solid depth and a playoff spot vs unbalanced, top heavy, and watching the playoffs on the couch.

 

[What the Faulk]

This is a tough one to call. It seems like the 3rd line is his spot to lose, meaning he'll have to try really hard to find himself playing only 5 minutes a game again. And he should have more talented linemates than who he played about half the year with last year. On the other hand, that line has the potential to disappear for games at a time, and get completely run over. 20-30 seems like a safe bet. More games played/ice time, better linemates, worse shooting percentage, probably no PP time.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I agree Bleed. I've always thought Nash was a smart player, had sound positioning and good centerman instincts, but a couple of years ago, he was woefully weak along the board and lost a lot of battles. I saw a vast improvement in his strength and board play this past season and as you said, flashes of offense but that needs to be more consistent.

I think it's more than just the 3C that's a question mark, it's the whole 3rd line. If Peters is true to his word and wants 3 scoring lines, that 3rd line can't be Gerbe-Nash-Dwyer or it won't matter. I hate coming back to this, but what WTF said in the Boychuk thread rings true. If he doesn't cut it and no one else (Rask, Terry, McGinn, PDG) steps up, the team is left with a weak 3rd line yet again.

If just ONE of those guys steps up, it makes all the difference in the world in terms of having 3 scoring lines. I think you can get away with Nash at the 3C if the other two guys can score/maintain some possession. You can't get away with Nash as the 3C if someone like Dwyer is on the wing.

I'm voting 20-30 but I think it will be closer to 30.

 

[bluedevil58*]

Are his numbers "inflated" due to him playing with SKinner last season???

 

[What the Faulk]

He spent 37% of his ES ice time with Skinner and scored 42% of his ES points with him on the ice. Small sample size of course, but it looks like the inflation was minimal.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I think he'll see a small improvement and expect to see him somewhere in the 20-30 point range. I like him okay, but I wish we had some young players that might push for his spot. Maybe they will if Peters really wants competition.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The only young guys I could see pushing for that spot are Lindholm (if the Canes want to start getting him at center) and Rask (if he can improve enough to beat out Nash).

I don't know enough about Patrick Brown, although I think TBK thinks he's got a shot.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I agree, and that's what disappoints me. I don't think Lindholm is pegged as a full time center this year, and I don't think Rask will be a full time NHL player this year. But I guess you just never know who will step up in camp. Including Nash himself potentially.

 

[Ole Gil]

There was a brief period where the team was running a 4th line of Bowman?/Nash/Ruutu while Manny and company were bumped up to 3rd line duties, and they were dominating the other teams 4ths in a big way.

I think as a 3rd liner with Skinner, and a 4th liner with less talent (say Boychuk/Malone), I think Riley will do adequately to good.

So if we see

Skinner-Staal-Lindholm
Tlusty-Staal-Semin
Gerbe-McClement-Dwyer
Malone-Nash-Boychuk

I think things will still work out pretty well.

 

[BrindAmours Army]

With Peters saying he doesn't want to call up a skilled guy to just play him on the fourth line, the intent of have McClement centering line four, and having three scoring lines, I think something like this would be possible(though I don't like it or actually think it is likely)

Tlusty-Staal-Boychuk/Nash
Gerbe-Staal-Semin
Skinner-Lindhom-Nash/Boychuk or Skinner-Nash-Lindholm
Malone-McClement-Dwyer

Wildcard: LaRose

If we stick the Staals, Semin, Skinner, Lindy, and Tlusty in the top six, we aren't going to be capable of having a scoring 3rd line. I don't expect Skinner and Lindholm to be split due to their chemistry, and I don't think Jordan and Semin will be split due to their chemistry and the fact that they are both defensively responsible.

This gives us three lines with arguably two top six players each. If Tlusty is on his game, the first line wouldn't be horrendous. If Tlusty is off his game, our third line would likely be better than our first. If we had one more top six guy that could play RW I wouldn't be opposed to this.

This is all of course assuming that Peters does not think a line of
Gerbe-Nash-Boychuk is a scoring line.

Of course, we could always do this

Tlusty-Staal-Murphy
Gerbe-Staal-Semin
Skinner-Lindhom-Nash
Malone-McClement-Dwyer

With LaRose and Boychuk as wildcards.
Multiple Stanley Cups.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Tlusty-Staal-Boychuk/Nash
Gerbe-Staal-Semin
Skinner-Lindhom-Nash/Boychuk or Skinner-Nash-Lindholm
Malone-McClement-Dwyer

Great lineup for the tank.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He's in the same category as Gerbe for me, I like him and want him to succeed but I cringe at where his name appears in our lineup.

 

[BrindAmours Army]

Great lineup for the tank.

As I said, I do not like it. But unless Peters thinks Gerbe-Nash-Boychuk/LaRose should be considered a scoring third line, that is one of the few options.

 

[What the Faulk]

He also mentioned that the Staals will play together at times. I'm curious how that'll work:

Eric // Jordan // Semin
Skinner // Lindholm // Boychuk
Tlusty // Nash // Gerbe

?

Either way, someone is playing out of position. They're almost weaker on the right than they are in the middle, especially if Lindholm plays center.

 

[BrindAmours Army]

He also mentioned that the Staals will play together at times. I'm curious how that'll work:

Eric // Jordan // Semin
Skinner // Lindholm // Boychuk
Tlusty // Nash // Gerbe

?

Either way, someone is playing out of position. They're almost weaker on the right than they are in the middle, especially if Lindholm plays center.

I'm hoping when he said that he was referring to double-shifting at the end of periods. I can't imagine us running a Staal-Staal line regularly unless Lindholm makes a BIG step up

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

He also mentioned that the Staals will play together at times. I'm curious how that'll work:

Eric // Jordan // Semin
Skinner // Lindholm // Boychuk
Tlusty // Nash // Gerbe

?

Either way, someone is playing out of position. They're almost weaker on the right than they are in the middle, especially if Lindholm plays center.

I kinda interpreted that as a case of late in a game/late in a period some double shifting...and not a line-up for an entire game.

EDIT: JSBS beat me to it.

 

[Vagrant]

Riley Nash.... the great enigma. We still view him as something of a prospect it seems. I don't think he has any more than he gave us last season and I think that expecting him to move the needle in any considerable way towards development would be a mistake. I can see why Francis liked him so much way back when. He's the anti-Boychuk. His game is entirely evolved from his on ice intelligence and he gets better at the small things every year I see him. But the great question regarding his upside looms large. And it sucks to have to say such disparaging things about guys that I personally don't have a problem with but find myself forced into it by virtue of what the organization is trying to sell them as. He's an admirable professional. He plays his game and stays within himself. Very composed and incredibly smart. The fight in his game does seem to come and go but that's forgivable in the context of his role. He still gives an honest effort but there are times when he seems less engaged. It's not an uncommon problem for players on this team.

But the drop off in talent is dramatic from Eric to Jordan to Nash. I don't think it's something that's fair to Riley, but in my mind I have some trouble thinking of an ideal position for him. If you want your 4th line to be a scoring option there's some ideal area for him, but that's really not the way of the league right now. He's over his head on the 3rd line. He's not a defensive liability but he's not tremendously excellent in that capacity either. He's not going to help you much on a powerplay and he's replacement level on the penalty kill. He's just ..... a hockey player. Good at most everything but spectacular at nothing and by virtue of a lack of depth we've got him slotted to play meaningful minutes.

It's just galling from a fan perspective that we have only four NHL bottom six forwards on our roster and three of them are probably going to end up in our Top 9. It's remarkable that players that leave our team don't even end up in the NHL after they leave. That they're reduced to tryouts. Gerbe, Dwyer, McClement, and Tlusty are all really good bottom six candidates on good teams. Even Dwyer is a stretch but I appreciate his style and he kills penalties. McClement is the same. Gerbe and Tlusty have both proven too inconsistent to be Top 6 guys but Tlusty in particular is a wildcard. The rest? Malone, Nash, Boychuk, Terry..... just an assortment of our favorite waiver fodder at this point. Will somebody step up? Who knows. Is it smart to approach a season with this abysmal lack of depth? No it's not. I remember even JR making some draft pick for NHL player trades that ended up working out decent for us. Aaron Ward for a 2nd. Mike Commodore for a pick. Why can we not fill out our bottom six with actual hockey players? Why do we have to hope that someone makes a near miraculous leap forward in order to field a competitive lineup with so much money tied up in the top six forwards?

That's the thing that confuses people the most about this team. "They have Skinner, Jordan, Eric, Semin, Faulk, Ward, Khudobin, Sekera, Lindholm, etc. why do they still suck?" .... we're a two line team at best. Nothing about our fortunes are going to change until that fact changes. Our bottom two lines for the past several years has been a farm system. "They're not NHL players yet, but maybe with enough time they will be." How about we get some players that are already good players instead of developing guys that can't seem to take the next step? Burning 100+ NHL games on guys like Bowman and Nash when the reward for developing them is only marginally better than whatever we could get in free agency for a modest amount of effort and scouting?

 

[HisIceness]

Is his game MVP like Steve Nash?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Riley Nash.... the great enigma.....<snip>

Is it smart to approach a season with this abysmal lack of depth? No it's not. I remember even JR making some draft pick for NHL player trades that ended up working out decent for us. Aaron Ward for a 2nd. Mike Commodore for a pick. Why can we not fill out our bottom six with actual hockey players?

While I agree with most everything you wrote Vagrant, this section I left is where I diverge from your line of thinking (in terms of trading picks). IMO, JR trying to trade picks/prospects for short term fixes and/or to fix his mistakes has contributed to our lack of depth and why the team can make deep runs 1 year, then miss the playoffs for multiple years in a row. There are examples of when his approach didn't work out so well in the long run. 2nd and 6th for Sanguinetti. 2nd for Nash....for example...

I understand it means that for this season, it makes it tougher, but my hope is that Francis is true to his word with a major focus on drafting and developing because IMO, that's the only way this team (with this budget) makes the playoffs on a consistent basis. I'm not overrating picks vs. real NHL players, just that with a budget team, they need to be successful in drafting and developing or we'll always have this inconsistent performance.

All that said, I DO think if they wanted to open the purse strings some, they could have done what you suggested via free agency as there were plenty of options (provided some of those guys actually wanted to come here) that could have lessened the dependency on having Nash/Boychuk/Terry come through. I think that fits into your comment about being top heavy and not willing to spend that money (especially with Ward's contract).

 

[NotOpie]

2nd for Nash....for example...

I understand it means that for this season, it makes it tougher, but my hope is that Francis is true to his word with a major focus on drafting and developing because IMO, that's the only way this team (with this budget) makes the playoffs on a consistent basis. I'm not overrating picks vs. real NHL players, just that with a budget team, they need to be successful in drafting and developing or we'll always have this inconsistent performance.

All that said, I DO think if they wanted to open the purse strings some, they could have done what you suggested via free agency as there were plenty of options...

First - I think that if we had drafted Nash with a 2nd and he developed on the path he's on now, we would/should be satisfied....a solid 4th liner with 3rd line upside (as I don't believe he's reached his peak yet; this year will tell). You guys are crapping on a guy that is exactly what Vagrant said, a hockey player, a solid guy. He's not flashy, but he's not a liability either. And, indeed, he has grown/improved each and every year. This is exactly what we should want. Look around the league, sure there are teams with 3rd and 4th lines made of of vets and proven commodities. But for a team like the Canes, those lines also need to be a proving ground. Boychuk, Gerbe, they need to prove that they can score (either at this level or with consistency). Nash is the "wiley vet" of that group and I'm fine with that.

Sure, I'd have liked to see somebody like a Penner added to the team. However, I also think, given what this year really means, that it is now or never when considering if some of these guys will cut it ... or we move on. There is no better time to see if Nash's upper end is the 3rd line center or if he's just an adequate 4th line guy. And like I've said he's gotten better each year and feels like he gets better as the year goes on. Of all the guys we talk about, I believe Riley Nash (and Elias Lindholm) takes the largest leap forward.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

First - I think that if we had drafted Nash with a 2nd and he developed on the path he's on now, we would/should be satisfied....a solid 4th liner with 3rd line upside (as I don't believe he's reached his peak yet; this year will tell). You guys are crapping on a guy that is exactly what Vagrant said, a hockey player, a solid guy. He's not flashy, but he's not a liability either. And, indeed, he has grown/improved each and every year. This is exactly what we should want. Look around the league, sure there are teams with 3rd and 4th lines made of of vets and proven commodities. But for a team like the Canes, those lines also need to be a proving ground.

I agree that if he works out as a 3rd liner, I would have no complaint with the move, but the jury is still out. As you said, this year will tell. As for the rest of it, I think we are in general agreement. But that's not inconsistent with the point I made (even if Nash isn't a good example). The team shouldn't be trading picks/prospects now for veteran help. Focus on drafting/developing even if it means leaner times in the short term. Francis himself said as much in the town hall. He doesn't just want to make the playoffs this year, he wants to build a foundation throw drafting and developing that will make the team a consistent playoff team. That's what I'm saying as well.

Boychuk, Gerbe, they need to prove that they can score (either at this level or with consistency). Nash is the "wiley vet" of that group and I'm fine with that.

? I think you have this backwards. Gerbe has 269 career NHL games, has twice scored 16 goals/31 points in a season and is 27 year old. Nash has 110 career NHL games, has never scored more than 10 goals/24 points and is 25 years old. How is that considered the "wiley vet" of the group? Or did you mean Terry?

 

[TheBigKahuna]

He's here to stay. Gingers are taking over the Canes!

 

[NotOpie]

My point wasn't about actual "playing time" or time in the league, it was more about style and context. I'm sorry but even though Gerbe has 260+ games in the league, he's not proven to be consistent. That's what I meant....he and Zach need to string years together at this level of solid scoring consistency.

Nash as the "wiley vet" was more about over the last couple of years, Nash has steadily improved, stayed healthy, and grown into a solid "hockey player". Whether it's Gerbe's health or Boychuk's historic inconsistency, they've not proven themselves. That's what this year is all about for them....as for Nash it's about taking yet another step forward.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Nash as the "wiley vet" was more about over the last couple of years, Nash has steadily improved, stayed healthy, and grown into a solid "hockey player". Whether it's Gerbe's health or Boychuk's historic inconsistency, they've not proven themselves. That's what this year is all about for them....as for Nash it's about taking yet another step forward.

Ok, but it still makes no sense to me. Gerbe is FAR more accomplished and proven in the NHL than Nash, I can't even see how one would say otherwise. But even if I just look a the last couple of years where you are talking about Nash's consistency, Nathan Gerbe has played more games, been healthier, and has outproduced Nash both of those two years.