A huge reason as to why goalies struggle in Philly?

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

So I'm watching the pre-game show for Flyers vs Rangers. And one of the experts, former goaltender Erik Granqvist tells an anecdote.

Appearently he was offered the job as the goaltender coach for Philadelphia Flyers back when Bryzgalov was their #1.

He didn't accept it though because he had one demand. He wanted to have a saying on how the defence play in their own zone. So he could use the strengths and avoid any weaknesses that the goalies might have.

Flyers replied with something along the lines: "No. They're goalies, their jobs are to stop shots, nothing else."

Do you believe this could be a reason as to why goalies struggle in Philly?


Do teams take their goalies into consideration when they set up their D-tactics or was Granqvist delusional with his request?

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[Filthy Dangles]

No goalies have no impact on how a team thinks about defending as a unit. If you're playing against a good puck handling goalie, you might have to be a tad more careful with your shootins as the offensive team (to keep it away from the goalie) but i can't really think of anything else a goalie might force a team to do defensively.

I agree that the goalies need to just stop the shots they're supposed to.

Flyers and goaltenders is like the Cleveland Browns and quarterbacks

 

[Jee]

Or maybe they just have terrible goalies and give up on the good ones too early

 

[shtorm2005]

I agree with OP, that's why trading goalies is more risky than forwards, different defense strategy gives different GA.

 

[tony d]

It's certainly an interesting phenomenon. The Flyers have usually been more good than they've been bad but goalies been an issue for them for yrs. Wonder if that changes when Carter Hart joins the team full time.

 

[Spirit of 67]

So I'm watching the pre-game show for Flyers vs Rangers. And one of the experts, former goaltender Erik Granqvist tells an anecdote.

Appearently he was offered the job as the goaltender coach for Philadelphia Flyers back when Bryzgalov was their #1.

He didn't accept it though because he had one demand. He wanted to have a saying on how the defence play in their own zone. So he could use the strengths and avoid any weaknesses that the goalies might have.

Flyers replied with something along the lines: "No. They're goalies, their jobs are to stop shots, nothing else."

Do you believe this could be a reason as to why goalies struggle in Philly?


Do teams take their goalies into consideration when they set up their D-tactics or was Granqvist delusional with his request?

That only makes sense if this is something new.
Flyers have had this issue far longer than I can remember.

 

[Sojourn]

I’d be curious if other goaltending coaches had some say in how the defense played. I’ve never heard of that being the case. Was it a reasonable request?

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

That only makes sense if this is something new.
Flyers have had this issue far longer than I can remember.

Maybe they've had that POV for, like forever? I'm not sure I agree with Granqvist.

But at the same time we've seen how mediocre goalies have been playing lights out on some teams with solid tactics.

For instance, shotblocking is stupid AF when the shot is coming from the point. The goalie will save it 9 times out of 10 if he sees it. Shotblocking just f***s up the goalies sight.

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

I’d be curious if other goaltending coaches had some say in how the defense played. I’ve never heard of that being the case. Was it a reasonable request?

Yeah, I'm curious as well!

 

[crackdown44]

It’s more that Philly, like Calgary, always goes bargain bin on goalies and has failed to develop any of their own prospects. Not sure if it’s an organizational issue for developing or if goalies are purely a crapshoot

 

[Spirit of 67]

I’d be curious if other goaltending coaches had some say in how the defense played. I’ve never heard of that being the case. Was it a reasonable request?

I could see that being the horse before the cart.

 

[who_me?]

Yes.

The Flyers defense has been overrated for decades (Desjardin + Therrien). Their offense have always had elite players, but their team overall does not play team defense.

 

[b in vancouver]

No goalies have no impact on how a team thinks about defending as a unit. If you're playing against a good puck handling goalie, you might have to be a tad more careful with your shootins as the offensive team (to keep it away from the goalie) but i can't really think of anything else a goalie might force a team to do defensively.

I agree that the goalies need to just stop the shots they're supposed to.

Flyers and goaltenders is like the Cleveland Browns and quarterbacks

I'd say you're wrong about that. Even if I put aside personal experience where goalies have asked me to do different things countless times, and often at odds with what another goalie wanted...

But a really good example of this in the NHL recently - that was very obvious and well-known - was Tim Thomas in Boston. The Bruins defensive structure changed a lot once Thomas solidified himself as the starter. The defence man would protect the back door play and leave Thomas the shooter. They stopped collapsing towards the net and played much further out than usual and rarely tried to block shots. They changed their structure to suit Thomas's aggressive style of goaltending as this way he could come out more, stop anything thrown towards the net and trust the defence to defend a cross-crease pass.

I wasn't in the coaches room however it's hard not to believe that these changes weren't a direct result, or in consultation with, Thomas, as they played to his strengths, coming out and challenging the shooter and a freakish ability to get back into the net while covering up his weaknesses, getting caught in traffic outside his crease and leaving the tap-in passes open.

Boychuk, Seidenberg, McQuaid, etc. would often look out of position because of this - but it was by design.

 

[Sojourn]

I could see that being the horse before the cart.

I agree. If it were my team, I’m not sure how comfortable I would feel about that. I’m all for the idea of building a plan around your players, and their capabilities, but restricting play based on what a goaltending coach says and forcing your defense to play a certain way to protect your goaltender’s weaknesses seems like a handicap.

Shouldn’t the goaltending coach be focusing on strengthening those weaknesses? That seems like a strength and conditioning coach telling the head coach to adjust his game plan based on the fitness of an individual player.

 

[CraigsList]

It’s more that Philly, like Calgary, always goes bargain bin on goalies and has failed to develop any of their own prospects. Not sure if it’s an organizational issue for developing or if goalies are purely a crapshoot

Well, in both teams’ defense, we both didn’t have good goalie prospects to grow within the organization. We finally have both picked up a couple, but they’re still young so we’ve had to pay for stopgaps right now because of that. Rittich is playing good though, and Hart looks like he is trending upward.

 

[Dr Quincy]

A good team considers all information that isn't too much of a distraction/waste of time. Giving a goalie coach at least a voice in how the D plays seems pretty reasonable. Don't know if it would have a big difference (given that the issues have been there despite multiple coaches, multiple goalies and multiple D), but worth a shot.

 

[Sojourn]

I'd say you're wrong about that. Even if I put aside personal experience where goalies have asked me to do different things countless times, and often at odds with what another goalie wanted...

But a really good example of this in the NHL recently - that was very obvious and well-known - was Tim Thomas in Boston. The Bruins defensive structure changed a lot once Thomas solidified himself as the starter. The defence man would protect the back door play and leave Thomas the shooter. They stopped collapsing towards the net and played much further out than usual and rarely tried to block shots. They changed their structure to suit Thomas's aggressive style of goaltending as this way he could come out more, stop anything thrown towards the net and trust the defence to defend a cross-crease pass.

I wasn't in the coaches room however it's hard not to believe that these changes weren't a direct result, or in consultation with, Thomas, as they played to his strengths, coming out and challenging the shooter and a freakish ability to get back into the net while covering up his weaknesses, getting caught in traffic outside his crease and leaving the tap-in passes open.

Boychuk, Seidenberg, McQuaid, etc. would often look out of position because of this - but it was by design.

I think that’s a little different. You could say the same thing about New Jersey under Brodeur, or Dallas with Turco and his puck handling. Their gameplan was built around the capabilities that the goaltenders brought to the table, but wasn’t part of that a result of those being weapons to help win games?

That’s still along the same lines as having, say, a terrific puck moving defenseman and giving them the opportunity to use that ability. Thomas was an exceptional goaltender, and making adjustments to emphasize the strength and impact of that exceptional play is smart. But if he were just an average #1, and you exposed yourself defensively to try to help him out, how smart is it then?

Listening to what the goaltending coach has to say is one thing, but giving him a say in how the defense is run could be dangerous.

 

[JT Kreider]

HF jinx strikes again. Pickard gonna shut us out now. Thanks a lot Captain YOU BLEW IT

 

[HansonBro]

HF jinx strikes again. Pickard gonna shut us out now. Thanks a lot Captain YOU BLEW IT

Reverse jinx...only 30 minutes to go...and a fight!

 

[SlimCharles]

They should have been patient with Bobrovsky.

 

[tntkid]

We had Steve Mason right after Philly let him go.

He was awful for us and a total waste of cap space.

 

[Kranix]

I have one demand: don't allow any side to side passes, cross crease passes for one-timers, shots from within 20 feet, shot-tips from point shots, any tips or re-directions, don't allow a player to come off the boards, deke out a d-man and shoot

 

[b in vancouver]

I think that’s a little different. You could say the same thing about New Jersey under Brodeur, or Dallas with Turco and his puck handling. Their gameplan was built around the capabilities that the goaltenders brought to the table, but wasn’t part of that a result of those being weapons to help win games?

That’s still along the same lines as having, say, a terrific puck moving defenseman and giving them the opportunity to use that ability. Thomas was an exceptional goaltender, and making adjustments to emphasize the strength and impact of that exceptional play is smart. But if he were just an average #1, and you exposed yourself defensively to try to help him out, how smart is it then?

Listening to what the goaltending coach has to say is one thing, but giving him a say in how the defense is run could be dangerous.

Oh, o.k. - I get that. Originally I didn't quite read it as differentiating that - but ya, I wouldn't want the goalie coach having too much say in the defence either. If anything he could have a few conversations with the coaches during the year and point out some positional weaknesses that said goalie or d-men have where they're not on the same page but that'd be about it.

made myself miss seeing Thomas out on the ice by mentioning him. just so much fun to watch. Boston was lucky to get him, and then Rask, as they were in the same boat as Philly for a lot of years trying to find that trustworthy #1 starter that you can just plug and play for a decade. - Teams that have had them most of their years don't understand how hard it is and how much it's appreciated when you get one of those guys.

For the Flyers - I still think of Lindberg and how different the late 80s early 90s would've been with Philly, Pitts, Boston and Montreal. Hextall was great and all and like Billy Smith or Thomas again, one of those guys, but Lindberg could've been all kinds of amazing. (Also Kent Nilsson is one of my all-time faves for some reason so never liked Hextall since)

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

Orange sweaters. Not good for a goalie.

I'm 100% serious. I'll even go far as to say goalies should avoid bright orange pads & gloves.

 

[Mickey Marner]

That organization really has no idea what a good goaltender looks like and will throw the goalie under the bus even if offense is the problem. Poor luck as well with Lindberg and Parent.