A 32 team league.

[bleuet]

Which of theses cities will get NHL. teams within the next 15 years via ethier expansion or relocation .
Hamilton
Winnipeg
Quebec City
Kansas City
Portland
Seattle
Houston
Cleveland
Milwaukee

In my opinion it should be
Winnipeg
Hamilton
Quebec City
Portland
Seattle

Most likely will happen
Winnipeg
Hamilton
Quebec City
Houston
Kansas City

What is your opinion ?

JW, I'd like to know who is ready to buy a team and move it to Hamilton? Is there any info I am missing?

I know the Copps coliseum is ready but something is missing, an owner?

 

[Bryan574]

JW, I'd like to know who is ready to buy a team and move it to Hamilton? Is there any info I am missing?

I know the Copps coliseum is ready but something is missing, an owner?

Heres the latest on the prospects of NHL in Hamilton dated January 14 http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/473741--four-hamilton-councillors-meet-with-boss-of-oilers with all the relocation talk in the NHL you could see why this meeting wasn't made public.

 

[JMROWE]

There are 2 prospective owners for an NHL team in Hamilton Jim Balsille & Tom Gaglradi & there are also other ownership groups out there that want to put NHL. team in Hamilton but Balsille & Gaglaradi are the only 2 that I know of right now .

 

[Killion]

Heres the latest on the prospects of NHL in Hamilton...

Nope, nothing to see here, move along.....

Its' interesting to read about the situation in Edmonton over the arena issues being somehow related to Katz's interests in Hamilton as a veiled threat, when really, their motivations with Hamilton appear to be entirely altruistic & well meaning. I suppose one could go subterranean & try & read more into it, however, I see their role as more that of an adviser & possible expediter, intermediaries if you will that may be able to broker some concessions within the league, along with Buffalo & Toronto that may ease the path to seeing a team in Hamilton. Its a little strange, as they appear to be seeking the Management Contracts for Copps & elsewhere, which would/could create a problem should a team arrive. I dont quite "get it" I guess. I'd also like to see the city hire someone with league experience who is well respected (Pat Quinn would be ideal, local guy as well) & who could curry favor with the Sabres & Leafs, NHL brass & possible investors/buyers. With new ownership in Buffalo & what looks like an upcoming change in Toronto, the indemnification fee's would be welcome; the philosophical & marketing concerns expressed by both teams could well be different from where theyve' been or are still at.... If its outright Expansion, fine, add Hamilton & Quebec City in 2015.

Giddyup already.....

 

[bleuet]

There are 2 prospective owners for an NHL team in Hamilton Jim Balsille & Tom Gaglradi & there are also other ownership groups out there that want to put NHL. team in Hamilton but Balsille & Gaglaradi are the only 2 that I know of right now .

Yes but am I alone to think Jim Balsillie will never never be able to get in a radius lower than 2000 feet close to Mr Gary?

 

[Killion]

Yes but am I alone to think Jim Balsillie will never never be able to get in a radius lower than 2000 feet close to Mr Gary?

I would say thats fairly accurate bleuet. Maybe a Restraining Order huh?. Through Pittsburgh, Nashville & certainly Phoenix, the Rodier Plans' just completely undercut the mans credibility & eroded whatever trust & faith many beyond just Bettman mightve' had in the guy. Even post Bettman, whenever he retures & moves on, many of those that Balsillie upset will remain, and memories are long in the NHL. Look what happened to the Jets, Diques' & Whalers & nearly happened to the Oilers 15-18yrs after the WHA collapsed. Sure their were plenty of other factors onvolved, the CDN Dollar, arena issues etc, but Id bet folding money some of the owners who were around back in the 70's & through amalgamation couldnt wait to bail on those markets, which may explain in part why we see the league fighting so hard to keep teams in places like Phoenix & elsewhere.

There are numerous people interested in Hamilton so I wouldnt conclude that just because Balsillies' messed up it precludes them from receiving a team, though more likely through expansion, same with QC IMO, and likely for 2015 or thereabouts. With new ownership in Buffalo & Toronto (upcoming) I really believe things are loosening up. A Grand Gesture To Right the Wrongs of the Past by Gary Bettman before he retires to Boca or wherever it is that ex-sports-commissioners go to slow down & reflect, keep an eye on their investments in arena & stadium bonds.....

 

[Brady Skjei]

As for the Islanders, I think it's asking too much for the greater New York City area to support 3 teams, with the Devils being right across the river. Baseball couldn't make 3 teams in New York work (New York Yankees, New York Giants, and Brooklyn Dodgers) and I don't think NHL can do it.

I agree with almost all of what you said except for the quote above. The reason why the Dodgers and Giants moved from NY was a stadium issue; the Dodgers wanted a new state of the art domed stadium but they were shot down, so O'Malley (their owner) decided to move to LA. He asked the Giants owner to move out west as well so they wouldn't be the only team out there. Once the Islanders get a new arena and/or have a competitive team again they'll be fine.

That being said, I do believe Winnipeg and QC need teams again. I wouldn't be against 8-team divisions and a divisional playoff format. In the event that Phoenix moves north, I think Seattle or Portland can support a team as well (of course with an owner and the proper facility). Kansas City as well. I'd love to see a team in Hamilton but I don't see it happening.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Ya, I lumped the Isles in with that lot on pure speculation, as the stuff thats' come out through the LightHouse affair has certainly raised questions about his sustainability & staying power as an owner. He's a weird guy. That comment about the Islanders being "the worst investment of my life" amongst other's, combined with his peculiarities & interests in the racing industry etc, would lead me to believe that if Nassau County doesnt come around, he could well move to Brooklyn or sell the team to someone locally, if they can be found. I dont see the team leaving the area, but I do think theres a good chance he'll be done if he doesnt get his approvals. A blessing for long suffering Islander fans Im sure.

No offense meant, but you seem to do alot of that ...

To the dismay of many Columbus fans, the Blue Jackets are not for sale either.

 

[MoreOrr]

There's lots of opinion expressed in this thread that there shouldn't be any serious consideration of the League expanding. And fine, the reasons given are primarily that the League has a number of struggling franchises so why in the hell should anyone be considering adding more teams. Well, two things... How many of these struggling franchises do you believe really can't be saved? And how many cities are there that don't have NHL teams, which you think could support a team, if there were an owner and a proper arena to house a team?

From my observations, I think there are more potential NHL locations that don't currently have teams than there are current NHL cities that ultimately could prove not to be able to support their team.

Two Lists

|Teams with strong potential for needing Relocation|Cities with likely potential to be able to support an NHL team
1.| |
2.| |
3.| |
4.| |
5.| |
6.| |
7.| |
8.| |

Complete the table as you think there are cities that apply. I Limited the spaces for 8 options, though either column could be shorter or longer.

 

[Killion]

Complete the table as you think there are cities that apply. I Limited the spaces for 8 options, though either column could be shorter or longer.

The only team that I think should be relocated is Florida. If the Islanders need to move, I would like to see them land in Brooklyn, though ideally Id prefer to see Wang divest himself of the team, a new owner step in with less ambitious arena & development plans provided its workable. Provided Expansion is graduated over 4-8yrs, and in order of priority, Wpg/QC/Ham/Hous/Port; adding 4 teams while moving just the one out of state & or possibly north to Canada... Now its your turn Mr. Orr, and remember, I'll be surveying your list like a 10 year old surveys a Pinata on his birthday.

 

[MoreOrr]

The only team that I think should be relocated is Florida. If the Islanders need to move, I would like to see them land in Brooklyn, though ideally Id prefer to see Wang divest himself of the team, a new owner step in with less ambitious arena & development plans provided its workable. Provided Expansion is graduated over 4-8yrs, and in order of priority, Wpg/QC/Ham/Hous/Port; adding 4 teams while moving just the one out of state & or possibly north to Canada.

I'm on the same page with you in regards to that first part. However, my list of where I think NHL teams could succeed is somewhat longer than yours.

 

[Killion]

I'm on the same page with you in regards to that first part. However, my list of where I think NHL teams could succeed is somewhat longer than yours.

Well, lets see The List. This paddles getting heavy my friend. Mine includes all of the existing teams plus the relo & additions mentioned. If we really crank it up, you could include;

Seattle
San Francisco
Austin
Las Vegas
Mexico City
Cincinnati
Indianapolis
London
Helsinki
Tampere'
Oslo
Russia X's 4
Sweden X's 3
etc...

 

[MoreOrr]

Well, lets see The List. This paddles getting heavy my friend. Mine includes all of the existing teams plus the relo & additions mentioned. If we really crank it up, you could include;

Seattle
San Francisco
Austin
Las Vegas
Mexico City
Cincinnati
Indianapolis
London
Helsinki
Tampere'
Oslo
Russia X's 4
Sweden X's 3
etc...

|Teams with strong potential for needing Relocation|Cities with likely potential to be able to support an NHL team
1.| | Seattle
2.| | Portland
3.| Florida | Quebec City
4.| | Winnipeg
5.| Phoenix | Hamilton
6.| | Tulsa
7.| |
8.| | Houston

I was really hoping to not be the initiator of the lists, but since you sort of posted yours and you are insisting, there's mind or at least a list off the top of head.

 

[JMROWE]

Teams with strong potential for relocating
Atlanta Thrashers
Phoenix Coyotes
Columbus Blue Jackets
Florida Panthers
New York Islanders

Cities with likely potential to be able to support an NHL. team
Hamilton
Winnipeg
Quebec City
Kansas City
Portland
Seattle
Houston
Cleveland
Indianapolis
Milwaukee

 

[Killion]

I was really hoping to not be the initiator of the lists, but since you sort of posted yours and you are insisting, there's mind or at least a list off the top of head.

Tulsa?. Thats an odd selection. Why would you suggest that market?.

Teams with strong potential for relocating
Atlanta Thrashers
Phoenix Coyotes
Columbus Blue Jackets
Florida Panthers
New York Islanders

Cities with likely potential to be able to support an NHL. team
Hamilton
Winnipeg
Quebec City
Kansas City
Portland
Seattle
Houston
Cleveland
Indianapolis
Milwaukee

The bolded ones' I disagree with. I dont think Columbus is in serious jeopardy of moving; and Atlanta is an absolutely critical market to the leagues success IMO. As mentioned, if the Islanders have to move, I cant see them going much farther than Brooklyn as they have a very lucrative local TV deal in NY that almost precludes them leaving for parts unknown. Kansas City is a tough one. I just dont know quite frankly. My first instinct is "not so good" but I really think it would require more study. The rest?. Yepp. Works for me!....

 

[MoreOrr]

Tulsa?. Thats an odd selection. Why would you suggest that market?.

I think there is a strong hockey base in Oklahoma, and that the NHL missed out on Oklahoma City. Sure, they're not large markets there, but I do think they'd be solid markets. OKC is now essentially off the board because almost certainly it can't support both the NHL and NBA. However, Tulsa is only slightly smaller and having a major league team would give Tulsa natives a sense that they're on a major league status just as their OKC brothers. The only downside IMO, is that for the NHL not to have gone to OKC but Tulsa instead, it's kind of suggests that the NHL is second level to the NBA... but I guess that's how it is in most places, so what's new.

 

[Brady Skjei]

|Teams with strong potential for needing Relocation|Cities with likely potential to be able to support an NHL team
1.|Phoenix|Winnipeg
2.|Florida|Quebec City
3.|Atlanta|Hamilton
4.| |Seattle
5.| |Portland
6.| |Kansas City
7.| |Houston
8.| |Hartford

There are probably many more markets which can support a team but those were the ones that i thought of right away. Hamilton can definitely SUPPORT a team but it might be at the expense of the Sabres, so I don't see a team there in the near future. Also, either Seattle or Portland should get a team; I'm not sure if both should at one time. KC and Houston have arenas already, but there have been questions as to if there would be significant interest in the game there (maybe cause they're in the south). Hartford can probably support a team but they need a new facility.

If I could have it my way, I'd have a 32 team league. Phoenix goes to Winnipeg, Atlanta/Florida goes to QC, and 2 expansion teams- [Seattle or Portland] and [KC or Houston].

 

[Killion]

I think there is a strong hockey base in Oklahoma, and that the NHL missed out on Oklahoma City.

I think you may be absolutely correct about that. Tulsa has a hockey history going back to the 1920's, has a decent sized population base, might possibly work. Its intriguing, as is Austin in Texas. There are some interesting markets out there, certainly Tulsa is one of them & I never really thought about them before now. OKC yes, but Tulsa never.... .

 

[Shawa666]

There's lots of opinion expressed in this thread that there shouldn't be any serious consideration of the League expanding. And fine, the reasons given are primarily that the League has a number of struggling franchises so why in the hell should anyone be considering adding more teams. Well, two things... How many of these struggling franchises do you believe really can't be saved? And how many cities are there that don't have NHL teams, which you think could support a team, if there were an owner and a proper arena to house a team?

From my observations, I think there are more potential NHL locations that don't currently have teams than there are current NHL cities that ultimately could prove not to be able to support their team.

Two Lists

|Teams with strong potential for needing Relocation|Cities with likely potential to be able to support an NHL team
1.| |
2.| |
3.| |
4.| |
5.| |
6.| |
7.| |
8.| |

Complete the table as you think there are cities that apply. I Limited the spaces for 8 options, though either column could be shorter or longer.

|Teams with strong potential for needing Relocation|Cities with likely potential to be able to support an NHL team
1.|Phoenix|Winnipeg
2.|Atlanta|Quebec
3.|Islanders|Portland
4.||Hamilton
5.||
6.| |
7.| |
8.| |

I've been conservative there. Every one knows about the situation in Phoenix, so it's self evident.

Atlanta might have to be relocated, if Atlanta Spirit can't find an owner willing to keep the team in Atlanta at the price they seek.

The Islanders is a tricky case. The Lighthouse project seems to be dead, Wilpon is out of the picture, due to the Madoff case. Prokhorov owns the Nets and 45% of Barclays Center, and the arena's site does not make any mention of possible ice making capacity. So, unfortunately, the Isles might have to move away from New York.

On the possible sites front, i've excluded Austin as a possible immediate relocation site as I have not seen any indication a strong enough hockey fan base there, a criteria that I think is necessary to have a NHL team. Kansas City suffered the same fate because I think that the city is saturated concerning major sports.

 

[MoreOrr]

table="head;width=400px"]|Teams with strong potential for needing Relocation|Cities with likely potential to be able to support an NHL team
1.|Phoenix|Winnipeg
2.|Atlanta|Quebec
3.|Islanders|Portland
4.||Hamilton
5.||
6.| |
7.| |
8.| |
[/table]

I've been conservative there. Every one knows about the situation in Phoenix, so it's self evident.

Atlanta might have to be relocated, if Atlanta Spirit can't find an owner willing to keep the team in Atlanta at the price they seek.

The Islanders is a tricky case. The Lighthouse project seems to be dead, Wilpon is out of the picture, due to the Madoff case. Prokhorov owns the Nets and 45% of Barclays Center, and the arena's site does not make any mention of possible ice making capacity. So, unfortunately, the Isles might have to move away from New York.

As you say, the problems with the Islanders have nothing to do with the fanbase, it's all connected to the arena and the ownership.

 

[Dado]

As you say, the problems with the Islanders have nothing to do with the fanbase, it's all connected to the arena and the ownership.

Doesn't matter.

In a smaller league, the most important thing is fan support. In a bigger league, ownership becomes more important than fan support. And the bigger the league, the more thinly spread good management becomes.

The only thing that is accomplished by "saving" a market in trouble today, is creating a new troubled market tomorrow.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

I agree with almost all of what you said except for the quote above. The reason why the Dodgers and Giants moved from NY was a stadium issue; the Dodgers wanted a new state of the art domed stadium but they were shot down, so O'Malley (their owner) decided to move to LA. He asked the Giants owner to move out west as well so they wouldn't be the only team out there. Once the Islanders get a new arena and/or have a competitive team again they'll be fine.

Actually, the domed stadium concept was meaningless. It was all about location. Walter O'Malley wanted one location, Robert Moses another. Moses, who was the chief urban planner in NY for decades and basically the architect of the city, wanted the new stadium out in Flushing. O'Malley wanted a lot in Brooklyn at the end of a rail line. Moses refused to let the stadium be built there. So O'Malley moved to LA.

In the end, Moses got his way. Shea was built in Flushing for the Mets within a decade.

 

[kdb209]

Actually, the domed stadium concept was meaningless. It was all about location. Walter O'Malley wanted one location, Robert Moses another. Moses, who was the chief urban planner in NY for decades and basically the architect of the city, wanted the new stadium out in Flushing. O'Malley wanted a lot in Brooklyn at the end of a rail line. Moses refused to let the stadium be built there. So O'Malley moved to LA.

In the end, Moses got his way. Shea was built in Flushing for the Mets within a decade.

Yup - and generally what Robert Moses wanted, he got.

I'm thankful that one of his last (and longest runnig) pipe-dreams never saw the light of day - an elevated 10 lane expressway between the Lincoln Tunnel and the Queens Midtown tunnel which would have gutted a path through mid town Manhattan.

 

[knorthern knight]

Well, two things... How many of these struggling franchises do you believe really can't be saved? And how many cities are there that don't have NHL teams, which you think could support a team, if there were an owner and a proper arena to house a team?

And if pigs had wings, they could fly. If, instead of Moyes, Phoenix had had a competent owner who...

• paid 1 million/year to a competent coach instead of 8 or 9 million per year to Gretzky
• used rational logistics instead of draining the Coyotes finances to prop up his failing logistics company

and if there was an arena in downtown Phoenix, or even Scottsdale, then the Coyotes would be a thriving franchise today. Practice differs from theory, and you rarely get perfect owners and arenas. Following your criteria, Phoenix should be golden, as well as probably a dozen large and several mid-size US cities I've never heard of. I think we would be better off discussing situations which have the necessary components in place. I would also add to your criteria, that the franchise owner has access to additional revenue streams. Concessions/parking are one example. Winnipeg has an arena at the small end of the scale, owned by the potential franchise owner, who is the 20th richest man on the planet. He will be able to last through the lean years. Quebec City has an arena coming soon, and a potential franchise owner who owns a cableco that would use the hockey team on its sports channel. So additional revenue there.

Portland has an arena, but not an owner who is enthusiastic about an NHL team.

Seattle lacks a modern arena. The arena was built for the Seattle Worlds Fair in 1962, with a major renovation in the 1990s.

Kansas City has an arena, but no serious ownership group.

I believe that there has been expressions serious interest from the Houston area, and the Toyota Center does seat 17,800 for hockey. Any others that I'm missing?

BTW, nothing personal about Gretzky. Any corporate HR type will tell you that being competent at a technical job is a totally different skillset from being a competent manager of the people doing that technical job. Yes, Wayne Gretzky was "The Great One" on the ice, but not behind the bench. OTOH, Don Cherry was a long-time journeyman minor leaguer who played exactly one game in the NHL, but had a much better coaching career than Gretzky.

 

[JMROWE]

It sounds to me the only cities that are already to go for an NHL. team are Winnipeg & Hamilton with prospective owners waiting in the wings & arenas only needing a few upgrades Winnipeg & Hamilton should be the first 2 in line for an NHL. team ethier via relocation or expansion .