GDT: #74 - COYOTES at SABRES – THU MAR 26 @ 7:00 PM ET – MSG-B, BELL TV – WGR

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

Failure to understand? You are declaring something as FACT even though it isn't, something can actually be reasoned or debated but you declare it to be fact because....you say its disgraceful. Well I say it's not, what then? Agree to disagree and move on.

The thing is that there is such a thing as supporter culture and it is the unwritten law of what it means to be a fan of a sports team. To pretend that that is not the case is a failure of understanding.

If you decide to burn the American flag you can't just declare that it was not disgraceful because you say so. Cheering for the other team is the lowest you can go as a fan of a team. It does not matter what the motivation is, you can't go lower. It makes Leafs fans throwing the jersey on the ice pale in comparison. That's not my opinion, that is simply the way it is. And that is why you have players who have given everything for the team and fans stop just a fraction of an inch from calling the fans classless. That is a pretty big deal and it is a fact that it paints the entire city in a very bad light.

 

[HP00]

The thing is that there is such a thing as supporter culture and it is the unwritten law of what it means to be a fan of a sports team. To pretend that that is not the case is a failure of understanding.

If you decide to burn the American flag you can't just declare that it was not disgraceful because you say so. Cheering for the other team is the lowest you can go as a fan of a team. It does not matter what the motivation is, you can't go lower. It makes Leafs fans throwing the jersey on the ice pale in comparison. That's not my opinion, that is simply the way it is. And that is why you have players who have given everything for the team and fans stop just a fraction of an inch from calling the fans classless. That is a pretty big deal and it is a fact that it paints the entire city in a very bad light.

The difference between burning Sabres flags and wiping their ***** with is that every fan that cheered for that OT goal WANTS us to win the Cup and WANTS us to do well. They feel that losing this game will get us closer to a Cup. it is not out of malice or anything. We know it is not the player's faults for the skill level out on the ice but nonetheless it is. We can boo them off the ice and be pissed we lost or cheer because brighter days are ahead. I just think that some people are overreacting as if we have compactly abandoned the Sabres and went to the game simply to spite them when it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[RoofIt5hole]

This is just a clear example of the toll the tank takes out of the teams fans AND players. It's ugly but it's a fact of life. Nobody wants individual players to fail but many fans are looking at the macro not the micro. We want a championship. As unpleasant and ugly as it is, the tank is the fastest way to that ultimate goal. As a lifelong Sabre fan, tonight was one of the most ugly and unfortunate moments if being a fan. While I wanted individual players to do well, I also wanted the team to lose. It's an unpleasant reality of where this team is.

I don't fault you for your feelings of embarassment but at the same time you have to take a step back and look at the big picture...

My only regret is that this team couldn't lose in Regulation so that I could actually root full heartedley for the team with last place nearly insured.

 

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

I get your sentiment, really. I'm even on board with it, as a matter of what's right and honorable in the world (happens to be one of two things I'm good with Nolan about too - whatever else I think of the man, he clearly wants to be the better honorable man).

Except where you go on about being embarrassed yourself for the actions of others. I think you're choked and righteous about being choked, but probably not "beyond embarrassed" (else you'd likely be hiding under the same mushroom as the players might wish they could at the moment ).

Chances are you're really either:

a.) embarrassed on behalf of the team; or

b.) frick'in choked and think certain other people ought to be embarrassed of themselves.

If a, I'd suggest dumping it, really, cuz they truly can take care of themselves.

If b, I'd suggest dumping it, really, cuz certain people will never get it enough to know how, when, where, or especially why they ought to be ashamed.

I am embarrassed that just yesterday I showed myself in public at our local rink wearing a Sabres hoodie. And I am mortified that my son wears his Sabres jersey to school. And I am beyond livid that a group of people that seemingly have no clue what they have actually done reflects their classlessness on me and has **** all over something that is extremely important to me. And I am dumbfounded that people who seem to have the mental capacity to use computers and form semi coherent sentences can't realize that when they go to the arena and put on a Sabres jersey they no longer represent only themselves.

 

[HP00]

I am embarrassed that just yesterday I showed myself in public at our local rink wearing a Sabres hoodie. And I am mortified that my son wears his Sabres jersey to school. And I am beyond livid that a group of people that seemingly have no clue what they have actually done reflects their classlessness on me and has **** all over something that is extremely important to me. And I am dumbfounded that people who seem to have the mental capacity to use computers and form semi coherent sentences can't realize that when they go to the arena and put on a Sabres jersey they no longer represent only themselves.

At this point all I have for you is this, relax, its a game.

 

[misterchainsaw]

"It will work" is a bold statement but in my opinion, it is worth a try, it is better than sitting 7th-12th either barley making the playoffs and being eliminated in the first round or barley missing the playoffs. Each year no closer to winning the cup with trades and no closer to drafting a good player due to being so high in the standings. All the while our core (Pominville, Vanek, Roy, Miller) become more and more unmotivated and older. What to do what to do. Sure there were other options but Regier decided that rebuilding was the best course to take in order to create a better team in the long run. Is it subtle? No but why should it be? The system is flawed enough where it can be utilized in our favor, so why not utilize it?

And I don't think the lack of integrity is worth the increased chance of
future championships. Perhaps that is where we differ as fans. (Keep in mind that I have advocated for every team that misses the playoffs to have an equal shot at any draft slot between #1 and #14)

Ironically, the last time we had a team capable of winning a cup, it was because a horrible Sabres made a trade at the deadline to get better at that moment and hurt their draft position for that season.

 

[schpaff]

I am embarrassed that just yesterday I showed myself in public at our local rink wearing a Sabres hoodie. And I am mortified that my son wears his Sabres jersey to school. And I am beyond livid that a group of people that seemingly have no clue what they have actually done reflects their classlessness on me and has **** all over something that is extremely important to me. And I am dumbfounded that people who seem to have the mental capacity to use computers and form semi coherent sentences can't realize that when they go to the arena and put on a Sabres jersey they no longer represent only themselves.

Just have you and your son say "the kings tanked for 5 years, deal with it".

You are really over thinking this whole thing. In 3-4 years hopefully you"ll feel better.

And have won multiple cups to boot.

 

[HP00]

And I don't think the lack of integrity is worth the increased chance of
future championships. Perhaps that is where we differ as fans.

Ironically, the last time we had a team capable of winning a cup, it was because a horrible Sabres made a trade at the deadline to get better at that moment and hurt their draft position for that season.

There are just so many variables that the management felt safer going in the direction they ended up going in. Hoping to land a Briere through a random trade is a long shot disregarding that a lot of other pieces fell correctly for that team to be put together the way it was.

As far as integrity, I think thats what it comes down to. Integrity is largely image based, moral values but those change from person to person and the fact is that many people just don't care about their image. They feel that regardless of how it happens, as long as we win the Cup thats all the matters. If we win the cup in 2020 I don't really think people will still be too down on this tank though I know some will still look down upon this time. History still remembers that great Penguins team in the 90s but only the really educated fans know what happened in order for them to get there.

 

[misterchainsaw]

Just have you and your son say "the kings tanked for 5 years, deal with it".

You are really over thinking this whole thing. In 3-4 years hopefully you"ll feel better.

And have won multiple cups to boot.

Did they? Or did they just suck? Monumental difference that you don't seem to be picking up.

 

[HP00]

this whole debate boils down to what we have been squabbling about for 2 years. For the tank or no?

 

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

At this point all I have for you is this, relax, its a game.

This is the lack of understanding I am talking about. If all you get out of following the Sabres is that it's a game then play dominos. There's a reason why people pay tens of thousands of dollars to watch the game, why they cry when the foot was in the crease and choke up when watching youtube clips of the French Connection. Sports are about much more than being just a game, it's about identity and belonging, history, emotions, family and home. And also honor, respect and pride and much more.

People who fail to understand this don't understand sports. But they should at the very least understand that when you go into public wearing the team colors you no longer represent just yourself. You are now an ambassador for Sabres fans, The Sabres and the city of Buffalo. That means that you don't break the most basic rules for being a fan and pretend like it's ok.

 

[schpaff]

Did they? Or did they just suck? Monumental difference that you don't seem to be picking up.

Well the Sabres suck, so what's your point?

I'm not missing anything....although I think your only answer to my original question is the Sabres should of made trades to fix the team.

 

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

The difference between burning Sabres flags and wiping their ***** with is that every fan that cheered for that OT goal WANTS us to win the Cup and WANTS us to do well. They feel that losing this game will get us closer to a Cup. it is not out of malice or anything. We know it is not the player's faults for the skill level out on the ice but nonetheless it is. We can boo them off the ice and be pissed we lost or cheer because brighter days are ahead. I just think that some people are overreacting as if we have compactly abandoned the Sabres and went to the game simply to spite them when it couldn't be further from the truth.

There is no difference, and your attempt to justify it by it's positive intent is a fallacy often referred to as the Saint's license.

 

[wunderpanda]

this whole debate boils down to what we have been squabbling about for 2 years. For the tank or no?

I don't think it does at all. It is two different things, passive support and understanding the tank is one thing. Actively cheering for the opposition is something else entirely. Maybe justifying the cheers with the tank makes you feel better, but they are two distinct things.

 

[Bps21*]

Just a reminder guys...he's done. And he's ashamed. But he won't go away.

 

[misterchainsaw]

Well the Sabres suck, so what's your point?

I'm not missing anything....although I think your only answer to my original question is the Sabres should of made trades to fix the team.

The point is the difference between tanking and rebuilding. One is something teams do all the time and is the part of the normal ebb and flow of a franchise. The other is scummy and lacks the integrity I want the team I root for to have. I believe the Sabres brass has crossed that line. Starting a barely AHL goalie in Hackett in a non back to back situation isn't the best optic either.

And don't put words in my mouth. I don't go around playing GM. There is far too much information that we aren't privy to to make judgements on what we would do. What should be clear is I wouldn't make signings/trades with the main intent to be worse this year and only get marginal future assets.

But who knows, maybe Murray actually expected Gionta, Mez, and Benoit to be serviceable NHL'ers despite age (in Gionta'a case) and evidence that the other two just aren't good. Maybe he is just incompetent. In which case we aren't going anywhere anyway no matter what young players we draft.

 

[Ness]

There is no difference, and your attempt to justify it by it's positive intent is a fallacy often referred to as the Saint's license.

LaFontaineToMogilny is more concerned about being "right" instead of being open-minded to other people's perspectives and opinions. Not worth debating with him anymore. If he's so ashamed and mortified of the Sabres, he can go root for another team.

 

[Bps21*]

Hackett had 40 saves his last start and Lindback sucked his last time out. if it wasn't for soreness nolan wanted to go back to him last game...he earned his ice time.

Jesus you'd think they sat Hasek in the cup finals.

 

[Bps21*]

LaFontaineToMogilny is more concerned about being "right" instead of being open-minded to other people's perspectives and opinions. Not worth debating with him anymore. If he's so ashamed and mortified of the Sabres, he can go root for another team.

Another team? He can't even get out of this thread.

 

[Bps21*]

I think there should be a rule that anyone who is crying about how the sausage gets made can't enjoy the sausage.

Instead of 15 years of cheering on mceichel..I look forward to 15 years hearing about the loss of innocence it took to get them.

F it.

The patriots actually cheat. And they have 4 championships to our nothing. We aren't even breaking a rule.

Being nice got us decades of dick.

Do whatever it takes.

 

[RoofIt5hole]

Clearly "integrity" has no place in today's professional sports. If it did Adrian Peterson would never get another contract in the NFL, neither would Greg Hardy, Ray McDonald, Danny Heatley, Slava Voynov, or Semyon Varlamov...

Get that **** out of here. It's a business. A business where all that matters is making money and winning championships. If you've got a problem with that, stop watching, stop buying team gear, stop going on hockey forums to *****, & stop buying tickets. If you're not willing to do that, then you can chill out and ride it out.

BIG PICTURE. Being bad now is the fastest path to a championship. If you don't get that or can't deal with that then I can't help you. Let's try and be constructive fans and move on from that. The fact is, we are one more loss closer to McEichel and one more step closer to the big picture goal.

 

[Ness]

Another team? He can't even get out of this thread.

If there are fans out there who still wish to root for the Sabres to win games this late in the season, fine. But most anti-tank fans I've encountered have a "holier than thou" approach to their positions, and it's just...ugh. They talk down to pro-tankers like they are the scum of the earth, failing to realize pro-tankers and anti-tankers BOTH want to see the Sabres succeed, ultimately. Both anti-tankers and pro-tankers dream of seeing the Sabres hoist a Stanley Cup in the near future, they just have different ideas on the path to take to get there.

 

[RoofIt5hole]

If there are fans out there who still wish to root for the Sabres to win games this late in the season, fine. But most anti-tank fans I've encountered have a "holier than thou" approach to their positions, and it's just...ugh. They talk down to pro-tankers like they are the scum of the earth, failing to realize pro-tankers and anti-tankers BOTH want to see the Sabres succeed, ultimately. Both anti-tankers and pro-tankers dream of seeing the Sabres hoist a Stanley Cup in the near future, they just have different ideas on the path to take to get there.

Yes, anti tankers being entirely delusional and pro tankers being realists.

 

[schpaff]

The point is the difference between tanking and rebuilding. One is something teams do all the time and is the part of the normal ebb and flow of a franchise. The other is scummy and lacks the integrity I want the team I root for to have. I believe the Sabres brass has crossed that line. Starting a barely AHL goalie in Hackett in a non back to back situation isn't the best optic either.

And don't put words in my mouth. I don't go around playing GM. There is far too much information that we aren't privy to to make judgements on what we would do. What should be clear is I wouldn't make signings/trades with the main intent to be worse this year and only get marginal future assets.

But who knows, maybe Murray actually expected Gionta, Mez, and Benoit to be serviceable NHL'ers despite age (in Gionta'a case) and evidence that the other two just aren't good. Maybe he is just incompetent. In which case we aren't going anywhere anyway no matter what young players we draft.

Perhaps they want to qualify Hackett?...so he needs to gets games played. Like you said who knows, we are not in the room. Your guessing on why he started.

Didn't put words in your mouth, I asked a question you didn't answer. So, what signings or trades would you have done? You sound like your GM'ing by saying they signed players who aren't NHL'ers.

So are we tanking or rebuilding?

 

[RoofIt5hole]

By the way, see that guy in the #23 jersey behind the net after Gagner's game winner? Beaut.