GDT: #72: FLYERS at Penguins, Sunday, Mar. 17, 2019, 7:30 p.m. ET

[baudib1]

Yes, Babcock is brilliant, getting Matthews, Reilly, JT, Marner and Nylander.

I didn't say he was brilliant I said he employs a system that exploits ours. It was proven 22 years ago that controlling the puck with skilled players beats teams full of grinders and we still haven't figured that out.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

It's not as big as you think it is. They have more talent, sure, but they were playing two No. 7-8 defensemen and Zaitsev isn't great either. Toronto definitely gives you an opportunity to score goals (as we did) if you ever get into the offensive zone. We have plenty of guys who can help you score goals once you're there, but exiting the D-zone is a systems problem and entering the O-zone is a talent one.

I don't care what "system" the Flyers play, if they face Toronto 100 times, Toronto is winning the possession battle the vast majority of the time because of the differences in personnel.

IMO people place way too much emphasis on "systems" being some kind of magic formula, when personnel matters much more.

People point to things like controlled entries and exits, and possession, being linked with success, and act like it's the systems that are leading to the success. They don't consider that maybe winning teams usually have more talented players, who tend to perform those difficult actions more consistently than lesser players, and it's the superior talent that's leading to the success, not so much the "system."

I've coached plenty of teams in multiple sports. It's a folly to think, for example, you can take the winning systems used by, say, Duke basketball, instruct mediocre players in those systems, and then expect them to both be able to execute those difficult systems and beat more talented teams using those systems. No, if you try playing an extended, aggressive "up the line, on the line" man-to-man defense that works so well for the best teams in the country, but you have inferior athletes, you're going to get SMOKED.

Simply put, personnel dictates the "systems" you are able to run. You can't snap your fingers and use a system that works well for talented teams and expect it to succeed with inferior talent. Coach any team in any sport with inferior talent and you'll learn this lesson FAST. But so many fans think you can just tell your players to play a certain style, snap your fingers, and BAM, success! Not the way it works.

 

[deadhead]

I didn't say he was brilliant I said he employs a system that exploits ours. It was proven 22 years ago that controlling the puck with skilled players beats teams full of grinders and we still haven't figured that out.

We're no longer a team full of grinders, we don't have the speed of Toronto or TB, but neither does anyone else, and how many Cups have those two won recently.

We do have inexperienced defensemen who struggle in the D-zone and forwards who don't come back to help out, we have insufficient depth to match up against good teams.

 

[baudib1]

@Ghosts Beer

Look, no one cares about your coaching experience, it has nothing to do with what goes on in pro leagues.

It's hard to believe you are a Flyers fan with knowledge of what this organization has accomplished and say such things.

The Flyers won their first Stanley Cup against a far more talented and experienced Bruins team because of a strategy that went against what every other team in the league tried to do against the Bruins.

The Flyers beat a far super Central Red Army team because of their use of the trap far more than the exaggerated importance of their physical play. They outshot them almost 3-1.

The Flyers play a system that doesn't work against well-coached NHL talent.

 

[baudib1]

We're no longer a team full of grinders, we don't have the speed of Toronto or TB, but neither does anyone else, and how many Cups have those two won recently.

We do have inexperienced defensemen who struggle in the D-zone and forwards who don't come back to help out, we have insufficient depth to match up against good teams.

The forwards don't come back to help because that's the freaking system.

 

[Domino666]

Then it’s time for Fletcher to grow a pair and do so. If Mimsy doesn’t like, fire him too. I really don’t care who coaches the last 8-10 games, it’s basically irrelevant

All that matters now is getting kids like Morin and NAK into as many games as possible.

I like how you think!!!

 

[occultist goat]

I'm just ready for this season to be over...please call-up morin.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

@Ghosts Beer

Look, no one cares about your coaching experience, it has nothing to do with what goes on in pro leagues.

It's hard to believe you are a Flyers fan with knowledge of what this organization has accomplished and say such things.

The Flyers won their first Stanley Cup against a far more talented and experienced Bruins team because of a strategy that went against what every other team in the league tried to do against the Bruins.

The Flyers beat a far super Central Red Army team because of their use of the trap far more than the exaggerated importance of their physical play. They outshot them almost 3-1.

The Flyers play a system that doesn't work against well-coached NHL talent.

You're making my point. The Flyers didn't beat those superior-talented teams by playing a wheeling-dealing game. They played systems based on their PERSONNEL. They beat the Red Army with a 1-4 neutral zone trap. My whole point is that your personnel dictates the systems you can play, but that fans think that any team can have success with systems that only the most talented teams are able to execute. If the Flyers tried to play like the Red Army, they'd have lost.

 

[DancingPanther]

I saw that thread bashing the Flyers management so I just wanted to say...

With all due respect, before Hextall, Flyers management was known as one of the best in the league, and this was largely based around Homer who is a true Flyer for life.

An organization that respected its players, alumni, and most importantly - fans.

Listen to the episode of Spittin Chiclets with Scottie Upshall on Feb 11, 76 min in.

“The first thing anyone ever said to me was Sami Kapanen, I walk in the room and he’s like “i played 15 years...whatever you need here you will get here, just show up”...whatever you need to be a pro and the best, the Flyers organization made sure you had it. In Nashville we were a low budget team in 03/04. I never experienced that New York Yankees feel”

He spoke highly of Jason Smith, Sami Kapanen, the city. He’s still an Eagles fan.

That's all great. But right now management and the coaches f***ing suck

 

[baudib1]

You're making my point. The Flyers didn't beat those superior-talented teams by playing a wheeling-dealing game. They played systems based on their PERSONNEL. They beat the Red Army with a 1-4 neutral zone trap. My whole point is that your personnel dictates the systems you can play, but that fans think that any team can have success with systems that only the most talented teams are able to execute. If the Flyers tried to play like the Red Army, they'd have lost.

No your point was this:

I don't care what "system" the Flyers play, if they face Toronto 100 times, Toronto is winning the possession battle the vast majority of the time because of the differences in personnel.

I didn't read the rest of your post because I don't care about your coaching experience.

The Flyers were able to beat the Bruins and CRA because they used a system (which wasn't their normal system) that countered the strengths of the teams they were playing. They didn't win on superior talent.

The TML are better than the Flyers, but it's not a vast disparity. The Leafs have about 5-6 elite players and 5-6 very good complementary ones. The Flyers have about 4-5 elite players and 6-7 very good complementary ones. But the Leafs are always going to score a shitton of goals against a Gordon-coached team because the system doesn't try to eliminate the Leafs' strengths.

 

[Stizzle]

3% playoff odds

 

[Larry44]

Time to start looking at NHL standings sorted by ‘league’ rather than ‘wildcard.’

 

[Ghosts Beer]

No your point was this:



I didn't read the rest of your post because I don't care about your coaching experience.

The Flyers were able to beat the Bruins and CRA because they used a system (which wasn't their normal system) that countered the strengths of the teams they were playing. They didn't win on superior talent.

The TML are better than the Flyers, but it's not a vast disparity. The Leafs have about 5-6 elite players and 5-6 very good complementary ones. The Flyers have about 4-5 elite players and 6-7 very good complementary ones. But the Leafs are always going to score a ****ton of goals against a Gordon-coached team because the system doesn't try to eliminate the Leafs' strengths.

Thanks for lecturing me on what my point was when you tell me you only read one small part of my post. Next.

 

[baudib1]

Lusz has an article up today that is illustrative.

By the numbers: The top 10 teams of the salary cap era

In 2007-08, the Red Wings outshot teams 34.4 to 23.5 on average, a margin of 10.9 shots-per-game – the largest margin in hockey history. The Red Wings personified puck possession hockey like no team ever has before or since, earning nearly 60 percent of the shot share. That year, the top 10 in Corsi were all Red Wings, with Tomas Holmstrom, Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk all over 64 percent on the season (with a goal rate to match). There have been 45 players seasons north of 60 percent since 2007-08, and these three are the only ones to eclipse 63 percent over a full season.

This is a great Red Wings team but it's not a team of 7 Hall of Famers and 3 more All-Stars. It's a team with 3 superstars, a couple of very good complementary players, a couple of really old guys (Chelios 46) and a bunch of role players. 35-year-old Tomas Holmstrom isn't a top 10 player in the league.

Who was the coach of that team?

 

[occultist goat]

the bottom line..is this team will never be built around speed as an indefinite identity and I'm ok with that, however, I'm not ok with it not being an attribute that can encompass and help the flyers 2 way style that allows us to compete with faster teams...we need a coach that can utilize our roster for next season an beyond. I honestly don't think this team is as slow. The team just plays at a freakishly slow pace that's a result of haktards bad habits and gordock's lack of a system, so the team just goes back to some of haktards bad habits especially in the defensive zone.
This won't change until they GET A GOOD TO GREAT QUALITY NHL COACH...

 

[x DeCruze]

Thanks for lecturing me on what my point was when you tell me you only read one small part of my post. Next.

To be honest with you, other than what Baudib mentioned, there's no other points you make. The rest is an example of your personal experience which you use to support your claim.

You can clearly see the difference in teams like Julien with Montreal, Gallant with Vegas, Cassidy with Bruins, Boudreau with whoever he ends up coaching performs better and hell we were a fun team to watch with Laviolette. It's not like the Flyers personnel is filled entirely with scrubs. We have a rising team with young players that are only going to get better with a coach that uses them more effectively and 2-3 elite players.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Strongly disagree that the Flyers can’t play an aggressive, puck possession style and be good at it.

They have played different forms of nonsense for years now and have been mediocre at best.

What exactly are we scared of? Adapt, and embrace the modern NHL.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

To be honest with you, other than what Baudib mentioned, there's no other points you make. The rest is an example of your personal experience which you use to support your claim.

You can clearly see the difference in teams like Julien with Montreal, Gallant with Vegas, Cassidy with Bruins, Boudreau with whoever he ends up coaching performs better and hell we were a fun team to watch with Laviolette. It's not like the Flyers personnel is filled entirely with scrubs. We have a rising team with young players that are only going to get better with a coach that uses them more effectively and 2-3 elite players.

You are completely missing the point I was making. I NEVER argued that inferior teams can't be effective against superior teams. I argued that inferior teams aren't going to become automatically successful by trying to employ "systems" that work for superior teams. In fact, they'll most likely have to employ different systems. And even still it's an uphill battle when you are outclassed personnel-wise.

I absolutely stand by my comment that if this Flyers team plays this Toronto team 100 times, Toronto wins the *POSSESSION* battle the vast majority of times based on their personnel, regardless of the Flyers' system. That doesn't mean the Flyers can't find other ways to win.

What I'm pointing out, though, is that many fans would argue that it's the Flyers' system that is causing the loss of the possession battle; as if the coach can simply tell the Flyers to play a possession game and that will be enough to both win the possession battle and win the game. It doesn't work like that. You can tell this Flyers team to play like the Red Army. They won't be able to do it. It won't make them win. It will actually reduce their chances of winning.

The other flaw in Baudib's argument is it analogizes Cup-winning caliber Flyers teams with the current Flyers team. Yeah, those Cup winning teams weren't as good as Boston or the Red Army, but they were still very good teams. Much more so than the current Flyers team.

Anyway, personnel dictates the systems you can play. Lesser talented teams can't just expect to tell their players to focus on controlled entries and exits and winning the possession battle against much more talented teams and expect to be able to execute it. What they can do is trap, try to counter attack, hope for good goaltending, and dump and chase to give themselves a better chance. But they're still going to lose a lot of games against better teams based on talent, even though they'll win more than otherwise. But when they lose, fans will whine that dump and chase isn't a strategy used by the winningest teams in the league, ignoring that those teams don't dump and chase because they have the *talent* to consistently execute the much more difficult controlled entries and maintain possession.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

You're making my point. The Flyers didn't beat those superior-talented teams by playing a wheeling-dealing game. They played systems based on their PERSONNEL. They beat the Red Army with a 1-4 neutral zone trap. My whole point is that your personnel dictates the systems you can play, but that fans think that any team can have success with systems that only the most talented teams are able to execute. If the Flyers tried to play like the Red Army, they'd have lost.

Just a point. Shero clearly modified his game plan based on how the soviets played. That trap was predicated on them playing a largely east west type game. If you attacked them aggressively then they exploited open ice. He put up a wall at the red line and dared them to try and cross it.

The overall hope with the majority of us who want a new coach, is one that will create a system that will enhance the skill sets of those on the roster and those coming. For example, hakstols offensive zone playbook was almost exclusively forward to d then shoot. While it utilized some of our d’s potential (especially ghost and provy having great years last year), it became predictable—the results were no longer there and he didn’t adjust. Both Gordon and hakstol don’t seem to emphasize close d to forward gaps; flyers forwards have a penchant for waiting at middle ice waiting for long passes to tip in. It happens too frequently for it not to be systematically related. They also do have some forwards capable of slicing and dicing opposing d; g, Jake, Patrick and konecny all possess the skating and stick skills to make plays on the rush.

Basically I don’t know if q (or whomever else is behind door number one) is the answer. I can say that Gordon and hakstol are/were assuredly not the answer.

 

[occultist goat]

Strongly disagree that the Flyers can’t play an aggressive, puck possession style and be good at it.

They have played different forms of nonsense for years now and have been mediocre at best.

What exactly are we scared of? Adapt, and embrace the modern NHL.

exactly they did it with lavy and had lesser personnel no reason they can't do it now be more successful at it because you have the horses to execute it...for the most part.

 

[flyersfan187]

I wish we would play the Penguins 8 times in a season again. This new scheduling has taken away rivalries and made the games less entertaining. Schedule change and Hak. Bad combo to sell tickets and have better ratings.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Relative to the rest of the league, this team is at its best when it is trailing late in games.

1) Because they are forced to play their best players more.
2) They are aggressive and take more chances.

 

[Striiker]

Imagine if they were smart enough to realize that and not wait until they're losing.

 

[BiggE]

@Ghosts Beer

Look, no one cares about your coaching experience, it has nothing to do with what goes on in pro leagues.

It's hard to believe you are a Flyers fan with knowledge of what this organization has accomplished and say such things.

The Flyers won their first Stanley Cup against a far more talented and experienced Bruins team because of a strategy that went against what every other team in the league tried to do against the Bruins.

The Flyers beat a far super Central Red Army team because of their use of the trap far more than the exaggerated importance of their physical play. They outshot them almost 3-1.

The Flyers play a system that doesn't work against well-coached NHL talent.

Damn straight!! If we had a coach with the mind of Fred Shero we’d easily have 8-10 more points this season and would make the playoffs.

 

[occultist goat]

this league overall does not make enough money to support all teams...which leads to half empty areas and low ratings outside of a few big markets. shrink the league. delete yotes, canes, Panthers...NHL sucks at the promotion of their sport.