GDT: #7: FLYERS 3 at Blue Jackets 6, Thursday, Oct. 18, 2018, 7:00 p.m. ET

[Ghosts Beer]

They do have some personal responsibility. However, Hakstol's system, by design, makes it difficult to generate good chances. There was a glimmer of hope in preseason and the first game, then they lost a single game and have reverted to the old Hakstol style emphasizing perimeter play. When the system naturally pushes play to the perimeter, it means forwards are going to have to take risks to try to get to scoring areas with less support. Gee, how dare they try to actually score in a crap scheme. It's only the very reason they were able to win enough to let Hak be embarrassed by Sullivan in the first place.

It seems like you’re making up a barrel of excuses to me. The players are not exonerated in forcing low percentage plays because they are more likely to score that way. No, they are more likely to turn it over leading to an odd man break that way, as they’ve shown. What’s more, as in Ghost’s case, many of these forced, low percentage plays are in transition behind the red line. Also, if you don’t think tons of goals in today’s NHL are created off deflections & rebounds, you’re nuts.
This is just excuse making for well liked stars forcing high risk, low percentage plays.

 

[Beef Invictus]

OK, so here is why I'm more worried about a deficient/collapsed system than I am about individual players.

When a system is not working, it means the onus falls on individual efforts to generate offense, and even defense. When mistakes are made, it makes that player look worse. For example, recall Hartnell when Stevens was fired. That guy had some brutal games where he looked rough. When he had a framework to function in, he became much better. When that framework fell apart a few years later, he sucked.

I want to see what this roster looks like with real, actual NHL structure before figuring out who actually sucks. I want to see the roster functioning as a full unit on offense, and defense, without a coach holding them back. We've seen that they can actually play good defense under Hakstol; that's the one aspect that was together and effective, when it wasn't being overtested because of bad offensive choices and bench decisions.

It really shouldn't be this much to ask for.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It seems like you’re making up a barrel of excuses to me. The players are not exonerated in forcing low percentage plays because they are more likely to score that way. No, they are more likely to turn it over leading to an odd man break that way, as they’ve shown. What’s more, as in Ghost’s case, many of these forced, low percentage plays are in transition behind the red line. Also, if you don’t think tons of goals in today’s NHL are created off deflections & rebounds, you’re nuts.
This is just excuse making for well liked stars forcing high risk, low percentage plays.

So they should fully yield to Hakstol hockey and not generate offense because it's too risky? What are you arguing for here?


I never claimed goals aren't created off deflections and rebounds, and that's the problem. Hakstol's system does not bring adequate netfront presence to justify all these point shots. TK's deflection goal is an exception. Too often wingers are off along the perimeter waiting for a possible cycle pass instead of getting to the slot or net. That is by design. It won't work against NHL goalies. It doesn't work. It's a major reason why our bottom six has been so nonproductive relative to other teams; they don't have the skill to make plays from the perimeter on sheer talent, and the style they are playing does nothing to put them in a position to work for goals because it doesn't call for pressure in those areas; it's all about setting up those point shots.

Look at how Hakstol neutralized PEB entirely by having him play as essentially a 3rd defenseman. That's the kind of crap he does.

 

[hatcher]

It seems like you’re making up a barrel of excuses to me. The players are not exonerated in forcing low percentage plays because they are more likely to score that way. No, they are more likely to turn it over leading to an odd man break that way, as they’ve shown. What’s more, as in Ghost’s case, many of these forced, low percentage plays are in transition behind the red line. Also, if you don’t think tons of goals in today’s NHL are created off deflections & rebounds, you’re nuts.
This is just excuse making for well liked stars forcing high risk, low percentage plays.

Favorites. Even if I loved g,v, Simmonds it's time to move on already. Not good enough.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Favorites. Even if I loved g,v, Simmonds it's time to move on already. Not good enough.

It's isn't that they aren't good enough, it's the system that's failing them. Never has one coach done so less with so much. And it's not just Haktard Jim Dufus either. It's Ian "CTE Brain" Laperriere and Gord "I sucked as a defenseman and I suck even worse as a coach" Murphy. The whole coaching staff is tainted with the stench of failure.

I really wish they'd dump this staff and hire a competent head coach and assistants. No more of this stupid dump and chase hockey. No more of this don't let defensemen rush the puck hockey. No more of this "well, Gudas and Sanheim are playing well, but we don't want to give them any more minutes right now" hockey. Every time something starts to go right, rather than reward it, this coaching staff punishes it. Every time something goes wrong, they continue to keep pushing it. The most backasswards staff this club has ever had.

I get that the goaltending is bad and it's going to be the let down of the team. At the same time, there's no reason why the rest of the club should be as bad as it is, yet here we are, going on four years now with Hakstol and it's still the same mistake prone and lacking emotion hockey club that remains. Wholesale changes have been made and it's still awful. It's like watching the Edmonton Oilers under Dallas Eakins.

 

[hatcher]

It's isn't that they aren't good enough, it's the system that's failing them. Never has one coach done so less with so much. And it's not just Haktard Jim Dufus either. It's Ian "CTE Brain" Laperriere and Gord "I sucked as a defenseman and I suck even worse as a coach" Murphy. The whole coaching staff is tainted with the stench of failure.

I really wish they'd dump this staff and hire a competent head coach and assistants. No more of this stupid dump and chase hockey. No more of this don't let defensemen rush the puck hockey. No more of this "well, Gudas and Sanheim are playing well, but we don't want to give them any more minutes right now" hockey. Every time something starts to go right, rather than reward it, this coaching staff punishes it. Every time something goes wrong, they continue to keep pushing it. The most backasswards staff this club has ever had.

I get that the goaltending is bad and it's going to be the let down of the team. At the same time, there's no reason why the rest of the club should be as bad as it is, yet here we are, going on four years now with Hakstol and it's still the same mistake prone and lacking emotion hockey club that remains. Wholesale changes have been made and it's still awful. It's like watching the Edmonton Oilers under Dallas Eakins.

Coach will go first and if I'm wrong I'll admit it but the players aren't that great including the prospects. Hexy is a problem also. Let's wait and see but the coach will get it after tomorrow if we get whipped.

 

[deadhead]

If this team had Kincaid instead of Elliott the first two weeks they'd be 5-2 or 6-1 and people would be talking Cup.
Hot goalies cover a multitude of sins (see the 2015-16 playoffs).

MacDonald screwed up Hextall by lying about how close he was to being NHL ready.
JVR got hurt, Patrick got hurt.
There's been some chaos, but we're talking seven games into the season and they're only 3-4.

After last year's turnaround, Hextall is not going to panic.
He may make some changes, but more as a realization that some players may not fit going forward.
But it wouldn't surprise me if he stands pat, waits for Neuvirth to return, Lyon and Stolarz to get some PT, before even considering a move at goalie.
And tries to see which Folin is for real before making a move on defense, hoping to buy time for Friedman and Myers.

As we saw with Mrazek, it's easy to change the nameplates on lockers, harder to find actual upgrades.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

If they stop forcing low percentage plays, play a disciplined style, & get better goaltending they’ll be fine.

I’m most worried about the goaltending. I think they’ll cut down on forcing low percentage plays. If they don’t, then they need to bring in a coach who will make them.

 

[Mike1167]

The PR hurricane continues for this typhoon****.

Yes, he is. He will probably be on the 4th line for the next 3 seasons, even though he sucks.

 

[bauer]

Funny how you changed my quote. Seems to be a trend around here.
I didn’t say “don’t want to win.”
I said “the top players aren’t *playing* to win.”
I’m sure they want to win. But a freewheeling style with forced offensive plays isn’t how you win.
They’re showing it just like the Isles did last year.

saying a player like Giroux isn't "playing" to win is basically the same thing. ALL players are playing to win. on every team. it's ridiculous to say otherwise.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

saying a player like Giroux isn't "playing" to win is basically the same thing. ALL players are playing to win. on every team. it's ridiculous to say otherwise.

Next time when you use quotes in reference to something I said, actually quote what I said. It makes you look bad and takes away your credibility otherwise.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Next time when you use quotes in reference to something I said, actually quote what I said. It makes you look bad and takes away your credibility otherwise.

What else are we to infer from you saying he's just playing for stats?

 

[deadhead]

Giroux and Couts sometimes try too hard and force mistakes.
Voracek takes games off mentally where he loses focus and is consistently late back checking.
Simmonds just can't play.
Ghost has been pretty solid so far but out of position more than last year.
Provorov has been bad.

The only top player having a good season so far is TK.

But it's only 7 games, players often need a wakeup call and then they turn it around.
However, what team could win consistently with goalies putting up a .862 S%?

 

[Adtar02]

Right now the top players aren’t playing to win. They’re playing for personal stats. You can see what happens when the players play “their” way. Contrary to popular opinion on this board, but what should have been obvious via the Islanders and Oilers, the players’ way is worse than Hakstol’s way when it comes to team results.

Now, if Hakstol can’t get these players back on a leash, then he definitely deserves to be fired. But the players also have to take responsibility, quit being so ****ing selfish, & play disciplined team hockey.

Highly doubtful. Only player I saw do this was mcdavid last year after the pressure was off and they were out of it. His numbers skyrocketed

 

[Adtar02]

It seems like you’re making up a barrel of excuses to me. The players are not exonerated in forcing low percentage plays because they are more likely to score that way. No, they are more likely to turn it over leading to an odd man break that way, as they’ve shown. What’s more, as in Ghost’s case, many of these forced, low percentage plays are in transition behind the red line. Also, if you don’t think tons of goals in today’s NHL are created off deflections & rebounds, you’re nuts.
This is just excuse making for well liked stars forcing high risk, low percentage plays.

The players also know they have to beat bob last night which isn’t easy unless to link a bunch of crisp passes together. The whole team was doing it. Kinda like if everyone does it maybe the is a reason for it like someone told them to

 

[Beef Invictus]

Giroux and Couts sometimes try too hard and force mistakes.
Voracek takes games off mentally where he loses focus and is consistently late back checking.
Simmonds just can't play.
Ghost has been pretty solid so far but out of position more than last year.
Provorov has been bad.

The only top player having a good season so far is TK.

But it's only 7 games, players often need a wakeup call and then they turn it around.
However, what team could win consistently with goalies putting up a .862 S%?

Giroux: 7 GP, 3 G, 7 A, 10 P

How is that not a good season so far?


Edit: Voracek is at 8 points in 7 games, for all the bellyaching he's contributing a lot so far.

 

[Mike1167]

Giroux: 7 GP, 3 G, 7 A, 10 P

How is that not a good season so far?


Edit: Voracek is at 8 points in 7 games, for all the bellyaching he's contributing a lot so far.

Voracek's numbers look ok, but don't forget that five of his points came in one game, so his stats are skewed. Take away that game and he has the stats of a second or third line guy- 3 points in 6 games.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Voracek's numbers look ok, but don't forget that five of his points came in one game, so his stats are skewed. Take away that game and he has the stats of a second or third line guy- 3 points in 6 games.

I've never understood this sort of analysis. The game still happened.

 

[deadhead]

I've never understood this sort of analysis. The game still happened.

Consistency, players often have one or two big games a season and then nothing the rest of the time.
Sometimes you have a game where lady luck shines on you and everything you try works.
In a short sample like 7 games, one big game gets overweighted.

Anyone watching Voracek would notice that he's had a number of bad games.
Or you could look at his xGF of 33.36 and xGFrel of -14.16.

Three Flyer forwards have xGF of 56+, TK, Patrick, Lehtera.
The three worst, Vorocek, Vorobyev and Simmonds.
The next three, Laughton, Couts and Giroux.

MacDonald has put up horrendous numbers, next worst is Hagg, but his numbers are so much better you know AMac has been pulling him down.

 

[Striiker]

If we pretend the stars aren't playing well, then that means the losses aren't Hakstols fault.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Consistency, players often have one or two big games a season and then nothing the rest of the time.
Sometimes you have a game where lady luck shines on you and everything you try works.
In a short sample like 7 games, one big game gets overweighted.

Anyone watching Voracek would notice that he's had a number of bad games.
Or you could look at his xGF of 33.36 and xGFrel of -14.16.

Three Flyer forwards have xGF of 56+, TK, Patrick, Lehtera.
The three worst, Vorocek, Vorobyev and Simmonds.
The next three, Laughton, Couts and Giroux.

MacDonald has put up horrendous numbers, next worst is Hagg, but his numbers are so much better you know AMac has been pulling him down.

In a short sample like 7 games, an underperformance can be overweighted as well, particularly if one chooses to ignore the best performance for some reason.


The fact is so far he is performing near his norm on a whole, just a bit over the norm.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

MacDonald has put up horrendous numbers, next worst is Hagg, but his numbers are so much better you know AMac has been pulling him down.

And yet the Pejorative Slur behind the bench continues to play AMac. We aren't winning anything anytime soon, so this is EXACTLY the time to use the young players like Myers or Friedman. Get them playing at the NHL level and get them accustomed to what's going to be ahead for them. But, that wouldn't fit Hakstol's narrative though.

 

[deadhead]

AMac had the lowest TOI the game before he was benched.

I think he told them he was close to 100%, Hakstol and Hextall agreed to let him get his game legs (you see this all the time, a veteran comes back from injury, coaches let them play through the rust), and it became obvious after a few games that things were far worse than he admitted.

This does not bode well for AMac if Folin rights his ship, b/c my suspicion is that Hextall is fuming, when a veteran player misleads a GM to protect his job, that can cause the GM to miss out on opportunities to strength that position, and its hard to regain trust.

 

[Prongo]

This is unreal. You people are f***ing delusional who think Hakstol doesn’t play a large part in this shit fest.

 

[Striiker]

This is unreal. You people are ****ing delusional who think Hakstol doesn’t play a large part in this **** fest.

Haven't you heard? Hakstol has no choice.