6th overall 2014 vs 10th overall 2013

[Tiranis]

Virtanen > Shinkaruk > Mccann > Horvat > Gaunce > Cassels.

Imo

Horvat is significantly better than McCann. Just no way to argue that, IMO. I don't agree with the others but at least they're defensible.

 

[Addison Rae]

Lirl at people ranking McCann over Horvat.

 

[Iridescent*]

Ryan Kesler seems to be doing okay.

Very astute. That does explain Kesler to a T. But, Kesler is a center who spent the majority of his development and career focusing on his defensive game. If he were a winger expected to produce offensively, there is a good probability we'd have given up on him long before he broke out.

And even at that, he was a black hole on his line.

It's rare that brickheads succeed in a top 6 role in the NHL. Especially on the wing.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Shiny new prospects get the higher upside?

Essentially yes. Think of it in terms of hf ratings, as time progresses the number should dropand the letter should rise. So, Horvat is a 7B and McCann an 8D imo. If McCann has a strong offensive year the number stays and the letter rises. If he doesnt, the number drops and the letter probably still rises, unless injuries occur.

And I personally value upside more.

Part of the problem is that, imo, with the exception of elite prospects, the 18 year is the best place to judge CHL players.

 

[member 202355]

Virtanen
Shinkaruk
Horvat
McCann

IMO.

 

[Addison Rae]

Very astute. That does explain Kesler to a T. But, Kesler is a center who spent the majority of his development and career focusing on his defensive game. If he were a winger expected to produce offensively, there is a good probability we'd have given up on him long before he broke out.

And even at that, he was a black hole on his line.

It's rare that brickheads succeed in a top 6 role in the NHL. Especially on the wing.

Evander Kane?

 

[Iridescent*]

Evander Kane?

Evander Kane is very intelligent. He's just immature and has attitude issues.

 

[CanaFan]

Evander Kane is very intelligent. He's just immature and has attitude issues.

Sorry, when you say "brick head" I think most people assume you mean "dumb on the ice", which Kane certainly tends toward.

If you mean it as "not intelligent" then you're pretty far off the mark with Virtanen. Kid seems quite bright in any interview I've seen. I mean probably not a Mensa candidate or anything but far from deserving of the "brick head" epithet.

 

[Iridescent*]

Sorry, when you say "brick head" I think most people assume you mean "dumb on the ice", which Kane certainly tends toward.

If you mean it as "not intelligent" then you're pretty far off the mark with Virtanen. Kid seems quite bright in any interview I've seen. I mean probably not a Mensa candidate or anything but far from deserving of the "brick head" epithet.

I mean dumb in general. It's politically incorrect to say, so people use euphemisms like "low on ice iq", or "low offensive iq". But generally dumb people tend to be dumb players. Seriously, if you went and gave IQ tests to top 6'ers with great tools and bottom 6'ers with great tools, you'd notice some very stark and consistent themes.

I'm posting on an anonymous internet message board though, so I can get away with saying it.

 

[MS]

Not really. Horvat will be a fantastic 3rd liner. McCann has a bit more upside right now. Imo the year after the draft is the most important. So I cant really compare until next year.

You are sorely under-rating Horvat's offensive ability.

 

[Canucks LB]

You are sorely under-rating Horvat's offensive ability.

This is the big debate, Will horvat show he can be a #2 guy in the NHL.

I don't see it, but others do. Will be an interesting development to watch over the years.

 

[Ventana*]

Nichushkin easily. Nichushkin would have been top 3 in that draft had he not been a Russian.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

1)JV
2)Horvat
3)Shinkaruk
4)McCann
5)Gaunce

 

[Pip]

I mean dumb in general. It's politically incorrect to say, so people use euphemisms like "low on ice iq", or "low offensive iq". But generally dumb people tend to be dumb players. Seriously, if you went and gave IQ tests to top 6'ers with great tools and bottom 6'ers with great tools, you'd notice some very stark and consistent themes.

I'm posting on an anonymous internet message board though, so I can get away with saying it.

I think you're way off here.

 

[MS]

This is the big debate, Will horvat show he can be a #2 guy in the NHL.

I don't see it, but others do. Will be an interesting development to watch over the years.

I have zero doubt that Horvat will be a quality top-6 NHL forward. And I'm generally considered one of the most negative people here in projecting prospects.

 

[Iridescent*]

I think you're way off here.

Here's to hoping

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

You are sorely under-rating Horvat's offensive ability.

What offensive ability? he plays on a stacked team, getting first line time and struggles to crack a point per game when he has high skill teammates generating chances.

Id be shocked if he ever cracks 50 points.

Judging players on playoff play is how we got Patrick White...

 

[Tiranis]

What offensive ability? he plays on a stacked team, getting first line time and struggles to crack a point per game when he has high skill teammates generating chances

Uhh... he had 1.4PPG while not playing with Domi and taking on defensive minutes. In his draft year he played on the 2nd line, taking on the defensive assignments — again without Domi.

To top that off, there were no "high skill teammates generating changes". I don't even know what player you're talking about. This is way more descriptive of McCann.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Virtanen doesn't have Nichushkin's skill, ...

Over-used saying.

 

[MS]

What offensive ability? he plays on a stacked team, getting first line time and struggles to crack a point per game when he has high skill teammates generating chances.

Id be shocked if he ever cracks 50 points.

Judging players on playoff play is how we got Patrick White...

He scored 1.4 points/game.

Guy is a horse with high-level skills who plays the sort of game that will seamlessly move up levels.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Uhh... he had 1.4PPG while not playing with Domi and taking on defensive minutes. In his draft year he played on the 2nd line, taking on the defensive assignments — again without Domi.

To top that off, there were no "high skill teammates generating changes". I don't even know what player you're talking about. This is way more descriptive of McCann.

I knew Horvat's game was underrated but some of these comments take it to a new level. The kid had 16 goals in 21 playoff games as a 17 year old, that was while taking on key defensive assignments at the same time. I see him as a 25 goal scorer in the NHL with some decent IQ and passing as well.

 

[CanaFan]

What offensive ability? he plays on a stacked team, getting first line time and struggles to crack a point per game when he has high skill teammates generating chances.

Id be shocked if he ever cracks 50 points.

Judging players on playoff play is how we got Patrick White...

As a general rule if you don't know anything about a player it's usually better to admit it or at least go look it up on hockeydb rather than making it all up and hoping that no one on the board notices.

Here, I'll even get you started:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=145053


Edit: on second thought are you _sure_ you didn't google RYAN Horvat from Guelph by mistake? Maybe that is the source of your dizzying lack of being correct about anything?

 

[LeftCoast]

What offensive ability? he plays on a stacked team, getting first line time and struggles to crack a point per game when he has high skill teammates generating chances.

Id be shocked if he ever cracks 50 points.

Judging players on playoff play is how we got Patrick White...

Holy making **** up batman!

As several others have pointed out, Horvat played 2nd line, 2nd unit PP and took all of the key defensive match ups and still produced at over a 90pt pace on the season, then upped is production for the playoffs. Did you forget to look at games played? His 74 points were in 54 games. The games he missed he was centering a line for Team Canada at the WJC.

Patrick White played high school hockey.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I made a mistake on the ppg. But im a firm believer in the murders row effect. You see a guy playing tough minutes against opposing team scorers, I see a guy not playing tough minutes against opposing teams best defenders.

His even strength production is better than expected as well.

Perhaps i have underrated him, but i still see him as a longshot to be an impact second liner.

 

[CanaFan]

I made a mistake on the ppg. But im a firm believer in the murders row effect. You see a guy playing tough minutes against opposing team scorers, I see a guy not playing tough minutes against opposing teams best defenders.

His even strength production is better than expected as well.

Perhaps i have underrated him, but i still see him as a longshot to be an impact second liner.

Respect for owning up to the mistake, happy to move on.

You're not totally wrong about the effect of not facing top shut down lines but it still can detract from offensive chances esp for the centre (Horvat) who is mainly tasked with defensive play first and offensive play second. Meaning he doesn't get to cheat the zone, plays high and retreats first when the puck turns over in the o-zone, etc. He also gets a higher % of D zone starts vs o-zone starts compared to a scoring line player.

It is certainly untrue to say a defensive role doesn't impact his offensive chances, though the degree is open to some debate. All things considered Horvat's 1.4 PPG is quite a positive sign, regardless of your skepticism.