Post-Game Talk: #60: Blue Jackets 1 at FLYERS 5, Tuesday, Feb. 18, 2020, 7:00 pm ET

[deadhead]

As usual, Striiker completely misses the point.
The focus of my comments was on DEFENSE, not overall play.

1) something changed the last ten games, there is a much stronger emphasis on defense, and avoiding bad defensive mistakes leading to HDCA.
2) the fact that the rest of the team is playing better doesn't negate good play by Hagg and Braun. Being the smallest giant is usually preferable to being the tallest midget.

Now the interesting question is how much is better defensive play by defensemen, and how much an emphasis on backchecking by forwards?
First 50 games:
xGA/60: ; HDCA/60:
NAK - 1.98; 7.11
JVR - 2.03; 8.52
Pitlick - 2.07; 9.07
Laughton - 2.30; 9.93
Farabee - 2.41; 11.60
Raffl - 2.42; 11.45
Frost - 2.54; 11.90

Couts - 2.17; 11.12
Voracek -2.17; 10.21
Giroux - 2.27; 10.60
Lindblom - 2.28; 10.68
Hayes - 2.33; 10.56
TK - 2.35; 11.63

Last 10 games:
Bunnaman - 1.49; 5.79
NAK - 1.57; 5.19
Raffl - 1.59; 5.25
Pitlick - 1.65; 10.38
Laughton - 1.75; 8.75
JVR - 1.82; 10.48

Couts - 1.47; 7.28
Voracek - 1.64; 8.04
Giroux - 1.75; 8.42
Farabee - 1.94; 7.11
TK - 2.11; 8.42
Hayes - 2.39; 9.45

The three guys who jump out are Bunnaman and NAK on the 4th line, 4th lines play defense, but these two rookies are excelling, and Farabee, who seems to have taken his game up a level the past few weeks.

The JVR - Laughton - Pitlick line was the best offensive line during this stretch, which explains why they didn't make the jump defensively, they're playing more aggressively, which is why top lines give up more HDCA.

G - Couts - Voracek - 3 goals
Farabee - Hayes - TK: 6 goals
JVR - Laughton - Pitlick: 8 goals

 

[1865]

Well the second Ghost is in the lineup I'll be thrilled to have Braun as a #6

Yep, you're not alone there.

 

[Curufinwe]

Hagg is a poor, sub NHL player. There isnt a single metric that speaks to anything other than that, except luck, and I'm not interested in a lucky team unless I'm playing one game. I'm not going to debate that. Its fruitless and goes nowhere because there is only one logical conclusion to be drawn.

All I was saying is that if he was out there for more than just a few long shifts, it would debunk AVs preference of a L and a R. But honestly, I dont care enough to look because it's an idiotic philosophy, especially when you have (had?) a player who has proven to excel when playing his offside. I get that it may be his thing, but being rigid in your stance and how you play people kn positions is really no different than Haks insistence on shooting from the point all the time. Coaches need to be flexible, and AV doesnt have a record of success that admonishes him from being so.

Hagg and Ghost played together frequently this season. Two lefties on the same pairing.

 

[Curufinwe]

Well the second Ghost is in the lineup I'll be thrilled to have Braun as a #6

Ugh, Braun sucks. Terrible trade, as we knew as soon as it happened.

Put me on record for saying this will turn out not so great, i'll eat crow otherwise.

Niskanen and Braun eat up a lot of our spare cap space we had and they cost our two best trade assets to do so. I do have a problem with these trades not moving the needle much and the players in question. I have just as much issue about opportunity cost here too. If these two moves comprise the bulk of our off-season moves to become competitive then that’s an extraordinarily sad attempt at doing so. In my eyes.

someone is going to suffer and if it's Ghost or Sanheim we're in serious trouble, since those are our two best defensemen.

For a team not on the verge of a Cup, I don't know why you make this trade. If we need a guy to help us for a long playoff run, then yes. Otherwise, it just looks like we are doing the Sharks a favor by taking on a contract so they can manage their cap.

He GM’s like his he cuts his hair.

A LHD would have been arguably better, giving the team the flexibility to put Ghost on the top pair, which is STILL probably the best version of the Flyers.

Jeez... thinking about the cost of Niskanen only makes this worst.

worse

What is this bozo doing? He's singlehandedly ruining everything Hextall built up and is legit destroying this franchise.

Again not personal, but any casual fan that sees the moves for Niskanen, Braun and potentially Hayes. Then gets excited believing it truly moves the team closer to true contention.

Is an idiot.

Wait till Fletcher signs Simmonds for 3 years $3M AAV to be the 4th-line RW

LOL if you think the winger version of Braun isn't coming here. We've got $4M in cap space and Maroon AND Simmonds are available.

 

[David St Hubbins]

Also, Hagg doesn’t get as much hate as MacDonald, despite actually being an even worse player. It’s probably because of their cap hits but that shouldn’t interfere with evaluations of a players ability.

These players get hate because they’re detriments who hurt the team, not because anyone who is the #6 will be hated. It just so happens that we’ve had terrible defensemen lately who deserve all the hate they get.

for me this is what always pissed me off:

 

[Curufinwe]

Still early to tell if buying out MacDonald and using that cap space on Braun improved the team.

 

[Rebels57]

I've been on this forum for a long time and the mindset has been to hate the #6 relentlessly, no matter who they are. I literally can't think of an exception. I just think we need to change our expectations on what these guys can realistically provide.

Sean O'Donnell in 2010-2011 was pretty well liked.

Carle - Pronger
Timonen - Coburn
Meszaros - O'Donnell

Unfortunately Pronger was limited to only 50 games, then 13 the following season, before retiring.

 

[Rebels57]

I fell asleep last night and didn't see much of the game but it has been notice that Hagg does overstay his time out there or gets caught often.

I am not defending Hagg playing by saying that I want him there I'm just saying I am not going to nit pick on the #6 defenseman that is currently playing when he is really the #8 (Ghost and Morin)

His average shift length is usually the longest among the D group. It's hard to change when your stuck in your zone. Especially in the 2nd period.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Ugh, Braun sucks. Terrible trade, as we knew as soon as it happened.

I mean to be fair I don't want to pay my #6 a 3.8M AAV. He has been a useful player this year, but he has still been the 3RD for the majority of the year.

Adding somebody of Braun's caphit and caliber is fine for this year but going forward we need to find a player of a similar caliber on a much cheaper deal.

 

[Striiker]

The Braun trade was still a bad trade. Doesn’t mean he’s a horrible completely useless player.

Oh and I was right in the post Curufinwe quoted:

someone is going to suffer and if it's Ghost or Sanheim we're in serious trouble

Ghost is suffering because of it. He forced Ghost to be buried on the 3rd pair with Hagg, instead of being used in the top 4 where he belongs.

 

[1865]

Sean O'Donnell in 2010-2011 was pretty well liked.

Carle - Pronger
Timonen - Coburn
Meszaros - O'Donnell

Unfortunately Pronger was limited to only 50 games, then 13 the following season, before retiring.

Great call. SOD was a real SOB.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I don't think I would hate Hagg as much as I do if he actually had to wait his turn to make the Show instead of having it handed to him while the better options out there had to wait. But alas, here we are and my hate knows no bounds.

 

[Striiker]

I hate guys who make winning harder and I love guys who make winning easier.

That's why I've aggressively defended Giroux, Voracek, Ghost, JVR, Sanheim, TK, Couturier, etc in recent years, while aggressively dumping on Hagg, Manning, Stewart, MacDonald, Lecavalier, Lehtera, etc. There's no mystery or bias... whatever is best for the team is what matters.

Oddly enough, this isn't as common of a mentality as you'd expect.

 

[deadhead]

Yeah, because some of us realize that dumping on players when there's no viable alternatives available is an exercise in futility.
Or I remember people telling me they should play Luby, Leier, Weal, etc. Where are they now? Where's Gufstafsson?

As soon as the players Hextall drafted started showing up, VdV, Leier, AMac, Vinnie etc. were gone.
Took all of two seasons to clear out all of these players.
Because it takes time between the draft and a player being ready to start in the NHL.

Hagg didn't beat out Ghost, Ghost played like crap this season then finally admitted his knee wasn't working and got surgery.
Hagg has played better his last nine games than Ghost all season, so either Hagg keeps it up or Ghost takes his job back.
That's the way it should be.

Right now people are whining about Frost in the LHV while Laughton is on a 40 ES point pace and Bunnaman ix playing excellent defense as the 4C. If Frost wants a job, go earn it, who cares if you're a 1st rd pick or the flavor of the month. The other two are keeping their day jobs until you take it.

One thing about AV/Fletcher, everyone gets a shot, Farabee, Vorobyev, Rubtsov, Twarynski, Frost, Kase, NAK, Bunnaman, Stewart, Andreoff. Veteran or rookie, you have to produce.
If you get a shot or two and don't take advantage of it, it's your fault.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, because some of us realize that dumping on players when there's no viable alternatives available is an exercise in futility.
Or I remember people telling me they should play Luby, Leier, Weal, etc. Where are they now? Where's Gufstafsson?

As soon as the players Hextall drafted started showing up, VdV, Leier, AMac, Vinnie etc. were gone.
Took all of two seasons to clear out all of these players.
Because it takes time between the draft and a player being ready to start in the NHL.

Hagg didn't beat out Ghost, Ghost played like crap this season then finally admitted his knee wasn't working and got surgery.
Hagg has played better his last nine games than Ghost all season, so either Hagg keeps it up or Ghost takes his job back.
That's the way it should be.

Right now people are whining about Frost in the LHV while Laughton is on a 40 ES point pace and Bunnaman ix playing excellent defense as the 4C. If Frost wants a job, go earn it, who cares if you're a 1st rd pick or the flavor of the month. The other two are keeping their day jobs until you take it.

One thing about AV/Fletcher, everyone gets a shot, Farabee, Vorobyev, Rubtsov, Twarynski, Frost, Kase, NAK, Bunnaman, Stewart, Andreoff. Veteran or rookie, you have to produce.
If you get a shot or two and don't take advantage of it, it's your fault.

Gustafsson is a poor example because he wasn't just a viable alternative, he was flat-out better than several preferred members of that defense. That was a D corps sadly lacking in ability to move the puck up ice and he could do that.

 

[PDX Flyer]

I've been on this forum for a long time and the mindset has been to hate the #6 relentlessly, no matter who they are. I literally can't think of an exception. I just think we need to change our expectations on what these guys can realistically provide.

Sami Kapanen is the most beloved #6 defenseman of all time

 

[Beef Invictus]

I've been on this forum for a long time and the mindset has been to hate the #6 relentlessly, no matter who they are. I literally can't think of an exception. I just think we need to change our expectations on what these guys can realistically provide.

That's because this organization has a long-established hobby of clinging to garbage #5/6 players while ignoring better ones, or refusing to take those roster spots seriously. For years we have had bottom pairings or bottom pairing players that are among the absolute worst in the league

Once they stop doing that then the criticism of their choices will cease. It's that simple. Expecting them to at least meet league-average in those roles isn't unreasonable.

 

[kudymen]

#evilhive #whiteknight #appealtoauthority

did I miss something?

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I don't think I would hate Hagg as much as I do if he actually had to wait his turn to make the Show instead of having it handed to him while the better options out there had to wait. But alas, here we are and my hate knows no bounds.

I agree. This happens all around the league. Good coaches latch on to bad players. Doesn’t make it right but it seems to have been that way for a long time.

 

[deadhead]

Hagg started the season as #8, Morin blew out his knee, Ghost played on one knee.
Not exactly "holding on" to a bad player.

Friedman so far hasn't been able to get a shot at his job, given AV/Fletcher's propensity to play everyone at LHV, he must not have made a great impression so far.

 

[Magua]

Hagg was NEVER behind Morin. That’s just a total fabrication, and I’m not sure of the point.

 

[Striiker]

When will people learn that if you have to lie to make a point, you've already lost?

 

[deadhead]

Hagg was NEVER behind Morin. That’s just a total fabrication, and I’m not sure of the point.

If Morin had been healthy, he would have gotten a shot to beat out Hagg, there was no set order for the bottom group.
Hagg wasn't "given" anything, he and Morin would have battled for the #7 spot, and Morin was out of options.
When Morin went down, Hagg was the default #7.

It wasn't like AV/Fletcher had anything invested in Hagg, they didn't draft him.
So if they kept Hagg over Friedman, obviously they didn't like what they saw in Friedman.

TB has L Schenn as their #8 defenseman, and he's clearly worse than Hagg these days.
Why are bad players are the bottom of rosters?
Because if they were good players they'd either be higher up on the pecking order or too expensive to keep around for long.

 

[Cootsfanclub]

Flyers just proved themselves to be the better team all around

 

[Tripod]

Lol.....contradicts himself in his very next post.