Prospect Info: 5th Overall Pick 2020: Who Do The Sens Draft - PART II

[Wallet Inspector]

It's unfortunately been a problematic issue.

Cowen
Zibanejad
Lazar
White
Ceci

Zibanejad was the only one to persevere thorough it but we dealt him away before he really took off.

White wasn't really rushed.

He spent 2 years in college then a decent amount in the AHL. And in his first full NHL season he DID put up 41 points.

 

[JD1]

Zibanejad was one of the most raw rookies I've seen play with Ottawa so this claim by you is actually quite bizarre.

1) Yes, he played mens hockey in Sweden, but he was by no means acclimatized to that level. He played in less than half the games that year and was one of the lowest scoring forwards on the team. Granted he was 18 years old at the time, but I wouldn't be using this point as a pro or a con towards the rushed debate.

2) Zibanejad put up 18 points in 29 AHL games split between 2012/13 - 2013/14, I don't see how these totals earn a call up. He was still quite raw and improving in the AHL.

Zibanejad showed improvements year by year, but the improvements were not quick enough in the eyes of management which I think was a factor in the eventual trade. I think more patience was required with Zibby. They've given much more patience to lesser touted prospects. Zibanejad obviously panned out in the end, but I think it's fair to say Ottawa didn't take the optimal route with him.

As for Colin White, I don't play the what if game. The fact is he struggled to show he belonged in the NHL last season. Whether this was due to injury/fitness/readiness or a combination is up for debate. Should he have been in the AHL last season? Hell yes. Do I think he can still be a middle six forward? Yes. I still have hope for Colin White but again I don't think he's been brought up optimally. As DJB mentioned, I prefer to have prospects marinate in the AHL unless they show they don't belong there like Batherson has done.

Zibanejad posted 20 points in 42 games in 12/13. Raw? Sure. Rushed, no not really. He was ready to play and he improved every year which is all you can hope for

If you feel guys should marinate in the AHL that's your preference

But stats wise and eye test wise he belonged in 12 13 and got better every year.

Relative to his peers at the time there's zero argument he was rushed and relative to how he's turnedout there's zero argument

There's also no disagreement on my end that some guys need plenty of AHL time....there's just no argument that applies to Zibanejad

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Zibanejad was one of the most raw rookies I've seen play with Ottawa so this claim by you is actually quite bizarre.

1) Yes, he played mens hockey in Sweden, but he was by no means acclimatized to that level. He played in less than half the games that year and was one of the lowest scoring forwards on the team. Granted he was 18 years old at the time, but I wouldn't be using this point as a pro or a con towards the rushed debate.

2) Zibanejad put up 18 points in 29 AHL games split between 2012/13 - 2013/14, I don't see how these totals earn a call up. He was still quite raw and improving in the AHL.

Zibanejad showed improvements year by year, but the improvements were not quick enough in the eyes of management which I think was a factor in the eventual trade. I think more patience was required with Zibby. They've given much more patience to lesser touted prospects. Zibanejad obviously panned out in the end, but I think it's fair to say Ottawa didn't take the optimal route with him.

As for Colin White, I don't play the what if game. The fact is he struggled to show he belonged in the NHL last season. Whether this was due to injury/fitness/readiness or a combination is up for debate. Should he have been in the AHL last season? Hell yes. Do I think he can still be a middle six forward? Yes. I still have hope for Colin White but again I don't think he's been brought up optimally. As DJB mentioned, I prefer to have prospects marinate in the AHL unless they show they don't belong there like Batherson has done.

He absolutely should not have been in the AHL last season after his great rookie year .

Also do you not remember fans were pissed when the Sens sent Zibanejad to the AHL that one season? There was literally a #FreeMika movement. You can say he was rushed a bit but clearly fans didn’t agree the the needed more seasoning at the time.

 

[DJB]

White wasn't really rushed.

He spent 2 years in college then a decent amount in the AHL. And in his first full NHL season he DID put up 41 points.

Fair but I thought he needed more time in the AHL. He didn't look ready

 

[h2]

Zibanejad posted 20 points in 42 games in 12/13. Raw? Sure. Rushed, no not really. He was ready to play and he improved every year which is all you can hope for

If you feel guys should marinate in the AHL that's your preference

But stats wise and eye test wise he belonged in 12 13 and got better every year.

Relative to his peers at the time there's zero argument he was rushed and relative to how he's turnedout there's zero argument

There's also no disagreement on my end that some guys need plenty of AHL time....there's just no argument that applies to Zibanejad

I don't put much stock into using draft peers as a metric for games played in determination if a player is rushed or not. Every prospect is different, nor does it dispute the notion that Zibanejad is rushed if he's actually one of the most raw prospects I've ever seen. Why would you want a raw prospect like Zibby to have as many games played as Jonathan Huberdeau up to this point?

As for the last bold point, there is an argument that he shouldn't have been promoted from the AHL in the first place. I'm glad he panned out in NY, but I don't think he was developed optimally in Ottawa. I don't think that's a controversial opinion. I'm frustrated in general with how Zibanejad was handled here. I think we'll be regretting that move for a while.

 

[h2]

He absolutely should not have been in the AHL last season after his great rookie year .

Also do you not remember fans were pissed when the Sens sent Zibanejad to the AHL that one season? There was literally a #FreeMika movement. You can say he was rushed a bit but clearly fans didn’t agree the the needed more seasoning at the time.

Hey, if you think Colin White looked like an NHL player last year, that's your opinion. I think he looked absolutely awful. He did have a nice rookie year, but he was not that player last year. Again, I still have hope this was just a sophomore slump and we'll see a player more resembling what we saw in the rookie year.

Yes, I remember #FreeMika, and I thought it was a little over the top. There was similar outrage when Spezza didn't make the team with Jacques Martin at the helm. I think Spezza was a better player for it down the road. I'm all for having prospects spend at least a season down in the AHL unless they show they're clearly above that level.

 

[JD1]

I don't put much stock into using draft peers as a metric for games played in determination if a player is rushed or not. Every prospect is different, nor does it dispute the notion that Zibanejad is rushed if he's actually one of the most raw prospects I've ever seen. Why would you want a raw prospect like Zibby to have as many games played as Jonathan Huberdeau up to this point?

As for the last bold point, there is an argument that he shouldn't have been promoted from the AHL in the first place. I'm glad he panned out in NY, but I don't think he was developed optimally in Ottawa. I don't think that's a controversial opinion. I'm frustrated in general with how Zibanejad was handled here. I think we'll be regretting that move for a while.

Other than your personal feelings i don't think there is any metric you can point to to say he was rushed.

I agree the peer thing isn't what you'd use to assess readiness...i simply cited it because the pace at which he was brought forward was not uncommon. He's actually played more nhl games than Huberdeau

And yes we'll be regretting the trade for a long time

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Hey, if you think Colin White looked like an NHL player last year, that's your opinion. I think he looked absolutely awful. He did have a nice rookie year, but he was not that player last year. Again, I still have hope this was just a sophomore slump and we'll see a player more resembling what we saw in the rookie year.

Yes, I remember #FreeMika, and I thought it was a little over the top. There was similar outrage when Spezza didn't make the team with Jacques Martin at the helm. I think Spezza was a better player for it down the road. I'm all for having prospects spend at least a season down in the AHL unless they show they're clearly above that level.

I agree with you, I’m just saying it would be a bad look for people to say he was rushed if they also said the sens were stupid to send him down that season. Not saying that’s your opinions

I don’t think Colin white was good last year but no reason he needed to be sent down again IMO. I think he outgrew the AHL.

 

[h2]

Other than your personal feelings i don't think there is any metric you can point to to say he was rushed.

I agree the peer thing isn't what you'd use to assess readiness...i simply cited it because the pace at which he was brought forward was not uncommon. He's actually played more nhl games than Huberdeau

And yes we'll be regretting the trade for a long time

Outside of the mediocre AHL stats, I suppose you're right.

The debate is largely personal preference. I like the way Detroit has historically brought players up. It's the way we brought players up in the 00's as well (coincidentally our most succesful time as a franchise).

 

[h2]

I agree with you, I’m just saying it would be a bad look for people to say he was rushed if they also said the sens were stupid to send him down that season. Not saying that’s your opinions

I don’t think Colin white was good last year but no reason he needed to be sent down again IMO. I think he outgrew the AHL.

Here's to a successful rebound in year 3 for White.

Back to the thread topic: Give me one of Perfetti/Raymond/Sanderson at #5 please.

 

[JD1]

Outside of the mediocre AHL stats, I suppose you're right.

The debate is largely personal preference. I like the way Detroit has historically brought players up. It's the way we brought players up in the 00's as well (coincidentally our most succesful time as a franchise).

I commented originally based simply on my memory of his rookie season and whether he was ready...versus rushed

In 2013, we had 11 forwards with 250 minutes of even strength ice time

Zibanejad was

T2 for even strength points
5th in CF%
2nd in SF%
1st in Gf %
2nd in xGF %
2nd in SCF%
5th in HDCF%

He was sheltered and led the team by a wide margin in offensive zone starts, but that's not uncommon for a rookie centre

His faceoff win percentage wasn't good, but neither are his career numbers

That was also the year Spezza went down early and Zibanejad's play was one of the reasons we made the playoffs

As I said earlier there's really no metric you can hang onto that says he was rushed.

I am even inclined to think that his early success coupled with his maturity might have led him to think "hey this is easy"

I think he was moved because he wasn't living and training like a pro. And that's been an unfortunate trade

 

[BondraTime]

Here's to a successful rebound in year 3 for White.

Back to the thread topic: Give me one of Perfetti/Raymond/Sanderson at #5 please.

Same three I’m hoping for, same order

 

[h2]

I commented originally based simply on my memory of his rookie season and whether he was ready...versus rushed

In 2013, we had 11 forwards with 250 minutes of even strength ice time

Zibanejad was

T2 for even strength points
5th in CF%
2nd in SF%
1st in Gf %
2nd in xGF %
2nd in SCF%
5th in HDCF%

He was sheltered and led the team by a wide margin in offensive zone starts, but that's not uncommon for a rookie centre

His faceoff win percentage wasn't good, but neither are his career numbers

That was also the year Spezza went down early and Zibanejad's play was one of the reasons we made the playoffs

As I said earlier there's really no metric you can hang onto that says he was rushed.

I am even inclined to think that his early success coupled with his maturity might have led him to think "hey this is easy"

I think he was moved because he wasn't living and training like a pro. And that's been an unfortunate trade

I will admit you got me to come around on this topic in regards to Zibanejad. I still think he could have been managed in a better way than what actually happened, and there's been cases in the past decade of improper prospect handling, but what's done is done.

I'm going to be all over management on these forums if we draft Quinton Byfield at #3 and play him in the NHL next year, especially if he shows nothing that warrants NHL play before the season starts.

 

[JD1]

I will admit you got me to come around on this topic in regards to Zibanejad. I still think he could have been managed in a better way than what actually happened, and there's been cases in the past decade of improper prospect handling, but what's done is done.

I'm going to be all over management on these forums if we draft Quinton Byfield at #3 and play him in the NHL next year, especially if he shows nothing that warrants NHL play before the season starts.

Byfield is an interesting one. I watch very little junior hockey. I used to go to 20 games a year but those days are long gone.

So i can't really comment based on seeing him. That said, he's been training with Roberts and he's certainly going to have the size and frame to play NHL along with the speed. His problem may well be that it's not ideal to be in the NHL but it's less ideal to be in junior. I don't know how much can be learned playing against guys where you have an on average 50 pound advantage. There's certainly a risk there that you develop habits that work because of that size advantage.

 

[TheDebater]

It's unfortunately been a problematic issue.

Cowen
Zibanejad
Lazar
White
Ceci

Zibanejad was the only one to persevere thorough it but we dealt him away before he really took off.

Sure, but on the flip side, you can probably make an even longer list of prospects that we did not rush to the NHL.

Now that I think about it, the issue was rushing 1st round prospects because most of our 2nd round and beyond picks were definitely given more than enough time on the AHL or junior.

 

[JungleBeat]

No amount of development time was going to help Lazar, Ceci and Cowen. They just weren’t cut out to be good NHL players.

 

[SAK11]

No amount of development time was going to help Lazar, Ceci and Cowen. They just weren’t cut out to be good NHL players.

That’s my thought, too. People will always point to rushing a prospect when a young player doesn’t pan out but lack of hockey IQ was a way bigger reason for the failure of those 3 guys.

 

[DJB]

Here's to a successful rebound in year 3 for White.

Back to the thread topic: Give me one of Perfetti/Raymond/Sanderson at #5 please.

Not a Drysdale guy?

 

[h2]

Not a Drysdale guy?

I’d be fine with either Drysdale or Rossi at five, but I’d be ecstatic with any of the aforementioned three at five (Perfetti, Raymond, Sanderson). I think Sanderson would bring an element to our D that we don’t currently have.

 

[R2010]

No amount of development time was going to help Lazar, Ceci and Cowen. They just weren’t cut out to be good NHL players.

I disagree. I think all three would have benefitted but particularly Lazar. Ceci had a low hockey IQ and Cowen got caught up in injuries which limited what he was good at and accentuated what he was bad at. I find it very hard to believe that Lazar could not have become a 4th liner who was reliable with the sens if he had been managed properly.

In terms of Zibanejad and the rushing discussion - lets put it this way he barely played in his Draft and Draft+1 seasons. He had a lot of catching up to do to get the same number of reps as many of the players drafted around him. He also struggle with injuries when he came over. I suspect if he had played in the OHL (as an example) he would have turned the corner in his game consistency wise earlier. Hell even if he played the full D+1 year in the AHL instead of SHL (where he was used less than promised) he would have benefitted I suspect. Zibby's issue was always getting his body ready and mentally preparing for the grind day-in day-out. Playing less than optimal minutes in like 50 shl games over two years probably didn't help that.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Just because many early picks end up in the NHL immediately doesn't necessarily mean they should, or its the best decision for them developmentally. The CHL NHL agreement does mess with some of them that are ready for the the next step, but one before the NHL

 

[QuietOnTheFront]

In Cowen's defense, he had a solid rookie campaign and gave off the impression that he was ready for m0re...

Personally when we drafted Cowen it seemed like a slam dunk pick, big stay at home type D and Memorial cup winner. The first time I saw red flags surrounding him was his first WJC in 2009/10. The games seemed to be way faster than he was able to keep up with, and he quickly saw himself relegated to bottom pairing minutes. Always seemed slow reading the play from that point on, playing very aloof.

 

[JungleBeat]

Personally when we drafted Cowen it seemed like a slam dunk pick, big stay at home type D and Memorial cup winner. The first time I saw red flags surrounding him was his first WJC in 2009/10. The games seemed to be way faster than he was able to keep up with, and he quickly saw himself relegated to bottom pairing minutes. Always seemed slow reading the play from that point on, playing very aloof.

Yeah, the NHL was different back then in regards to drafting. You had guys like Schenn and Gudbransson going high. The game changed and left Cowen behind, that world junior performance was ugly. He’s lucky that he had Gonchar as his partner during his rookie year, he just didn’t have the skills to be an NHL player.

 

[Agent Zub]

No amount of development time was going to help Lazar, Ceci and Cowen. They just weren’t cut out to be good NHL players.

I don't agree simply because they all actually looked quite good as rookies. It was throwing them to the wolves that made them lose their confidence and instincts. I'm not saying that they would have made it as stars or anything. But they should have been NHL regulars for their roles.

For Cowen you can blame injuries i guess. But I swear Lazar and Ceci got dumber every year.

 

[GCK]

I don't agree simply because they all actually looked quite good as rookies. It was throwing them to the wolves that made them lose their confidence and instincts. I'm not saying that they would have made it as stars or anything. But they should have been NHL regulars for their roles.

For Cowen you can blame injuries i guess. But I swear Lazar and Ceci got dumber every year.

Lazar and Ceci never had hockey sense. They both hit their ceilings. Terrible picks.