Prospect Info: 58th Joni Ikonen

[Sam I Am]

Well when we see Collberg played at the Worlds, he showed the exact same thing if not more than Ikonen. And I'm sorry, but Collberg at our 1st development camp, was showing that he had an already NHL caliber shot. Collberg showed that he was skilled, good skater, and one of the hardest shot I've seen since I followed the Habs. And he was downright impressive in all the international competitions he played in.

Ikonen, who I LOVE and think highly of, has shown what even strength in this summer showcase? Ikonen has shown exactly the same skillset that Collberg showed at the same age. But the hope is that he will develop differently.

This board never agrees with anything. We are never 100% for or against something. But the only time it happened was with the Collberg pick. So let's not pretend that finally Collberg was not that big of a deal. He was. Just that his development stopped right after. That was the problem. So we will see what Ikonen is made of from now on. Hopefully with a different result. And I do think that's what will happen.

Agreed (now we are 2 for 2!).

Collberg was really much less impressive at his second WJC in 2013-14. Despite being one of the older forwards, Collberg was easily overshadowed on what was a very strong Swedish team. Overall, his draft +1 performance was cause for concern.

We'll see what Ikonen does this season--although his WJSS stint is certainly a good start. On the strength of it, he may well have secured a spot on Finland's national junior squad.

 

[Whitesnake]

Collberg never had the hands or the playmaking ability of Ikonen. Collberg was always a one dimensional player. Ikonen has far more options available to him due to his skillset.

To be honest, the only reason the comparison gets made is that they were both drafted by Montreal out of Frölunda. But even among habs draftees, the better comparison to Ikonen is Reway, IMO.

Well we will agree to disagree. Everybody who followed the WJC saw that Collberg was not unidimensional. And that if there is one guy who is TRULY one-dimensional, it is Reway.

 

[yianik]

Ikonen was a good pick.

Colberg was a good pick.

Lehkonen was a good pick.

DLR was a decent pick.

With where we generally select we are not going to get blue chippers with our 1st rounders and then we are generally into the mish mash of all the other rounds.

We need a pool of skill players ( always draft for the best skill and best upside every round ) from which hopefully you get a top 6 forward or top 4 D at least every other year. Not saying other qualities are not needed, but the skills must be there.

Overall you have your compliment of picks and you pick talent.

You don't draft players with that top upside then even if your picks come through you have players that you could otherwise get with 5th rounders from other teams. Or you will have a few of your guys not shine as much as you wanted and they will be able to fill the bottom lines ie DLR looking that way, but we will see, there is still hope there. That is a mugs game.

Then you develop them.

Then hopefully you have players some top 6/4D coming out the other side.

Bottom line for us is having a good sized pool of players with top half potential. Ikonen is one of those, hopefully he comes through in a few years.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Well we will agree to disagree. Everybody who followed the WJC saw that Collberg was not unidimensional. And that if there is one guy who is TRULY one-dimensional, it is Reway.

Reway isn't one dimensional offensively. In fact, I'd say he's the most gifted offensively in the system.

 

[HankyZetts]

Well we will agree to disagree. Everybody who followed the WJC saw that Collberg was not unidimensional. And that if there is one guy who is TRULY one-dimensional, it is Reway.

The big difference between Ikonen and Collberg? IQ and skating. Same with Reway. Although, imo both of them and especially Reway, have more pure talent than Collberg.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Well we will agree to disagree. Everybody who followed the WJC saw that Collberg was not unidimensional. And that if there is one guy who is TRULY one-dimensional, it is Reway.

Okay, so we established that Collberg had a really good shot. In your opinion, what other offensive attributes did he possess at Reway's or Ikonen's level or higher?

 

[Teufelsdreck]

I'm partial to players whose names end in 'konen'. More, please!

 

[jfm133]

Well when we see Collberg played at the Worlds, he showed the exact same thing if not more than Ikonen. And I'm sorry, but Collberg at our 1st development camp, was showing that he had an already NHL caliber shot. Collberg showed that he was skilled, good skater, and one of the hardest shot I've seen since I followed the Habs. And he was downright impressive in all the international competitions he played in.

Ikonen, who I LOVE and think highly of, has shown what even strength in this summer showcase? Ikonen has shown exactly the same skillset that Collberg showed at the same age. But the hope is that he will develop differently.

This board never agrees with anything. We are never 100% for or against something. But the only time it happened was with the Collberg pick. So let's not pretend that finally Collberg was not that big of a deal. He was. Just that his development stopped right after. That was the problem. So we will see what Ikonen is made of from now on. Hopefully with a different result. And I do think that's what will happen.

Totally agree, and I would add that Collberg developpment stopped at Frolunda. The same Frolunda that gave us a well developped Lekhonen. So was it because of Frolunda's program? I don't think so. Most of the outcome is on the player, not only because of his will to succeed, but just the margin of progression the player has after his draft. The thoughest thing to judge on a 17 years old kid, is where he is on his developpment curve. Some are drafted close to the ceiling, some still are still far from the top plateau.

 

[Whitesnake]

Reway isn't one dimensional offensively. In fact, I'd say he's the most gifted offensively in the system.

Not my point. Collberg wasn't all shot either. My point was about 2-way game. Which is something Reway doesn't have.

The big difference between Ikonen and Collberg? IQ and skating. Same with Reway. Although, imo both of them and especially Reway, have more pure talent than Collberg.

Ikonen is a better skater than Collberg but Collberg wasn't a slouch either. And I completely disagree about IQ. People are analysing TODAY what we are seeing TODAY. Makes no sense.

Okay, so we established that Collberg had a really good shot. In your opinion, what other offensive attributes did he possess at Reway's or Ikonen's level or higher?

Let THW tell you...And that is EXACTLY what we all thought when we got him. But seems that all is forgotten because now we have to be excited for a newer prospect. Makes no sense. Let's really hope Ikonen pans out 'cause I don't want to read in 4 years how he wasn't that good anyway....

http://thehockeywriters.com/sebasti...hl-2012-draft-prospect-profile-and-interview/

 

[Tyson]

Yeah I remember being fired up about Collberg. Ikonen has a long damn way to go to remotely get a sniff. Maybe Lehkonen's dad can coach him...

 

[NotProkofievian]

Not my point. Collberg wasn't all shot either. My point was about 2-way game. Which is something Reway doesn't have.

Collberg didn't make it not because he wasn't good enough defensively. He didn't make it because he couldn't contribute offensively. Like, at all. A big reason for that is the fact that he was fairly limited in what he could do offensively.

Ikonen is a better skater than Collberg but Collberg wasn't a slouch either. And I completely disagree about IQ. People are analysing TODAY what we are seeing TODAY. Makes no sense.

I mean, even today, after 5 years of development Collberg's skills don't stack up against Ikonen as an 18 year old.

Let THW tell you...And that is EXACTLY what we all thought when we got him. But seems that all is forgotten because now we have to be excited for a newer prospect. Makes no sense. Let's really hope Ikonen pans out 'cause I don't want to read in 4 years how he wasn't that good anyway....

http://thehockeywriters.com/sebasti...hl-2012-draft-prospect-profile-and-interview/

Okay, so the article basically agrees with what I'm saying: Collberg was a shooter first and foremost. In fact, this is the only ability that they directly talk about: his ability and confidence in ''finding the twine.'' They even say he creates more offense for himself than for his linemates. Which is exactly what I'm talking about. He was a player who needed to get good looks on net to be effective. The only time they mention puck skills are in breakaways or shoot out attempts.

I asked you what you thought Collberg was as good at when he was drafted as Ikonen or Reway. You gave me an article that didn't advance an argument that wasn't mine to begin with.

Ikonen has as good a shot, far better hands, better playmaking ability, and better skating. Therefore, my original comment that Ikonen has a bigger skillset remains undisputed.

 

[Whitesnake]

Collberg didn't make it not because he wasn't good enough defensively. He didn't make it because he couldn't contribute offensively. Like, at all. A big reason for that is the fact that he was fairly limited in what he could do offensively.

I mean, even today, after 5 years of development Collberg's skills don't stack up against Ikonen as an 18 year old.

Okay, so the article basically agrees with what I'm saying: Collberg was a shooter first and foremost. In fact, this is the only ability that they directly talk about: his ability and confidence in ''finding the twine.'' They even say he creates more offense for himself than for his linemates. Which is exactly what I'm talking about. He was a player who needed to get good looks on net to be effective. The only time they mention puck skills are in breakaways or shoot out attempts.

I asked you what you thought Collberg was as good at when he was drafted as Ikonen or Reway. You gave me an article that didn't advance an argument that wasn't mine to begin with.

Ikonen has as good a shot, far better hands, better playmaking ability, and better skating. Therefore, my original comment that Ikonen has a bigger skillset remains undisputed.

Tell that to 2012 NotProkofievian who once thought that he couldn't believe his eyes that Collberg made it through the 1st round and that thought he would be a WONDERFUL counterpoint to Galchenyuk. And all this talk about his upside being very good. So I guess based on that, you probably thought Ikonen should have been a top 10 pick if he is SUCH and always was a superior player to Collberg....

And it's great how you disregard everything else in this article as if it never existed. Best shot in the draft they say. HIgh-end hockey instincts. Pro-caliber shot and SKATING. He has good puck skills (as if when they gave the example of breakaways, that meant that this was the only time he showed that....come on....). Great competitor, the bigger stage their is, the better he plays. Ànd that the ONLY concern they had, was the strength. Tell me you don't have that for Ikonen.

Anyway, I let you win. As you said, your opinion is undisputed. But you should talk to your old self though....he didn't seem to agree with you.

In the end though, the reality of what we ALL thought at the time was that, yep, Collberg was most likely a FINISHER with everything that was great about it. But in the end, when you compare the 2, Collberg had a better shot. Was just as good in the skating department. Had very good hands too. And when Ikonen beats Collberg is in his playmaking ability.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Tell that to 2012 NotProkofievian who once thought that he couldn't believe his eyes that Collberg made it through the 1st round and that thought he would be a WONDERFUL counterpoint to Galchenyuk. And all this talk about his upside being very good. So I guess based on that, you probably thought Ikonen should have been a top 10 pick if he is SUCH and always was a superior player to Collberg....

And it's great how you disregard everything else in this article as if it never existed. Best shot in the draft they say. HIgh-end hockey instincts. Pro-caliber shot and SKATING. He has good puck skills (as if when they gave the example of breakaways, that meant that this was the only time he showed that....come on....). Great competitor, the bigger stage their is, the better he plays. Ànd that the ONLY concern they had, was the strength. Tell me you don't have that for Ikonen.

Anyway, I let you win. As you said, your opinion is undisputed. But you should talk to your old self though....he didn't seem to agree with you.

In the end though, the reality of what we ALL thought at the time was that, yep, Collberg was most likely a FINISHER with everything that was great about it. But in the end, when you compare the 2, Collberg had a better shot. Was just as good in the skating department. Had very good hands too. And when Ikonen beats Collberg is in his playmaking ability. Which makes total sense as one what a finisher....the other is a playmaker. Which in the end would have been a perfect duo to be complementary.

In 2012 I didn't even have a bachelor's degree. Now I'm a good ways into my PhD. People learn things. In fact, the 2012 draft was majorly formative in how I evaluate prospects now because we were all so off. If you look at what was said to argue that our 2012 draft was incredible it's a lot of bull. The arguments for Thrower, Vail, Bozon, etc. were all just bad. So I don't make those arguments now.

And no: Ikonen's the better skater. He has far better hands as well (this is really not close). Moreover, what he does with his hands is very well integrated with his feet which allows him to make defenders look silly. He's also not primarily a playmaker. He's a sniper. He's just not as one dimensional as Collberg was. He actually can make plays.

 

[Whitesnake]

In 2012 I didn't even have a bachelor's degree. Now I'm a good ways into my PhD. People learn things. In fact, the 2012 draft was majorly formative in how I evaluate prospects now because we were all so off. If you look at what was said to argue that our 2012 draft was incredible it's a lot of bull. The arguments for Thrower, Vail, Bozon, etc. were all just bad. So I don't make those arguments now.

And no: Ikonen's the better skater. He has far better hands as well (this is really not close). Moreover, what he does with his hands is very well integrated with his feet which allows him to make defenders look silly. He's also not primarily a playmaker. He's a sniper. He's just not as one dimensional as Collberg was. He actually can make plays.

It has nothing with how bad we were at evaluating players. It has everything to do with what the draft is all about. By the way, I'm pretty sure that Timmins and Co drafted those guys in 2012. And were extremely happy about it. But they don't have Phd's....Whether I, you, or anybody else made arguments about the draft, scouts drafted them anyway. It doesn't matter what we think. It still happened whether we loved it or not. I don't want to dissapoint but I will predict that even with a PhD, you will still be wrong about players. And it's perfectly normal to be.

My point about 2012 was not to show that we don't have a right to change our minds. BUt it was to show that we should stop pretending that we knew all along how this or that guy would end up when we actually didn't. That's using hindsight in the worst way.

But if your main point is that you want to be right, well you are. You win. And I,ll leave it at that.

By the way, I took Ikonen in our mock draft. I had Ikonen in who I wanted the Habs to take. And I pick Ikonen in my simulated league. I love him. And do believe in him. It has nothing to do with the discussion.

Strange part in all of that is that yeah, you liked Ikonen at the draft...but weren't sure we should pick him in the 1st. While I had his name as a 1st round possibility.

 

[Wats]

Well we will agree to disagree. Everybody who followed the WJC saw that Collberg was not unidimensional. And that if there is one guy who is TRULY one-dimensional, it is Reway.

People were very high on Collberg, he was definitely considered more than just shot. Heck, there is a reason he still had trade value after not progressing. Not surprising that there's a 'he was not that good prospect' vibe now though.

No doubting Ikonen's ability, but I get the sense he needs to mature. He seems to be a little arrogant. Is it just me?

Thoughts on Lehkonen and his champion belt celly that he has carried form FEL to SHL to NHL?

 

[Lebowski]

I think if there's anything we should have learned form 2012 is that sometimes, players drop for a very good reason.

Collberg wasn't some hidden gem. He was a well known commodity at the time. And yet plenty of teams decided to pass on him to the point where he slipped to the 2nd round, even though he was perceived as top 10/top 15 pick at some point if I recall correctly. I guess you could make a parallel to this year's draft with Tolvanen and Kostin. Teams knew what these guys were all about, and still passed on them.

Even though we may have been a tad too overexcited with a high-upside prospect like Collberg back in 2012 to notice the red flags, it sure seems like scouts had their doubts early on. As for Ikonen, we'll have to wait and see. Personally, I've always been consistent in my approach of the draft, even though I'm not the one that spends the most time around here looking at prospects. You bet on talent, first and foremost. The Collberg pick was a good bet to take but it didn't pay off. Ikonen is a good bet to take as well.

 

[Naslund]

One of the biggest differences between Collberg and Ikonen is how serious and focus they seem to be. Collberg never gave me the impression that he was dedicated to getting better. In contrast, Ikonen is all business all the time. To me, this trait is going to contribute most to the different outcomes for these two players. I think Ikonen is overall more talented than Collberg, but his character (I hate using this word) is what will mainly allow him to surpass Collberg. Just my two cents.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Well we will agree to disagree. Everybody who followed the WJC saw that Collberg was not unidimensional. And that if there is one guy who is TRULY one-dimensional, it is Reway.

from what I saw. I saw some good 2 way play from him as well. He had a great back check on a Galchenyuk breakaway in the final. He didn't look one dimensional but he didn't really stand out enough in that WJCs anyway.

 

[Sam I Am]

Quite apart from the hat-trick, Ikonen made a play on the right hand board coming out of his zone in the first period. 360 spinorama with a pass to an open teammate to his left. Freaky skill to make that play. Not many players would ever dream of trying.

 

[NotProkofievian]

It has nothing with how bad we were at evaluating players. It has everything to do with what the draft is all about. By the way, I'm pretty sure that Timmins and Co drafted those guys in 2012. And were extremely happy about it. But they don't have Phd's....Whether I, you, or anybody else made arguments about the draft, scouts drafted them anyway. It doesn't matter what we think. It still happened whether we loved it or not. I don't want to dissapoint but I will predict that even with a PhD, you will still be wrong about players. And it's perfectly normal to be.

My point about 2012 was not to show that we don't have a right to change our minds. BUt it was to show that we should stop pretending that we knew all along how this or that guy would end up when we actually didn't. That's using hindsight in the worst way.

But if your main point is that you want to be right, well you are. You win. And I,ll leave it at that.

Of course we'll always get things wrong. My point about mentioning where I am in my education is not to gloat, but rather to say that things have come a long way since 2012. The way we make decisions from year to year doesn't need to stay the same. When we get things wrong we should ask ourselves whether we could have done better. I think I would do a better job at the draft today than I would have in 2012, by a lot. I think that gets lost on these boards. I know you, for example, have suffered a lot of people attacking you saying you don't know what you're talking about, or that you're a knowitall (not naming names, but we know who). You'd be the first to admit that you don't know it all, as would everybody in the mock draft community: but we're all learning.

Watching Collberg and Lehkonen develop were pretty big learning experiences for me. Superficially they were very similar players. Smaller players, good but not great skaters, good but not great puck handlers, opportunistic scorers. Lehkonen had an ability that stood out to me when I watched him though: he was able to predict the course of action. At the time I wasn't really sure which player would go further. But seeing how and why the one failed while the other succeeded informs how I assess players now.

By the way, I took Ikonen in our mock draft. I had Ikonen in who I wanted the Habs to take. And I pick Ikonen in my simulated league. I love him. And do believe in him. It has nothing to do with the discussion.

Don't think I've forgotten. Or forgiven you.

Strange part in all of that is that yeah, you liked Ikonen at the draft...but weren't sure we should pick him in the 1st. While I had his name as a 1st round possibility.

In the posterity thread I moved him to our second pick but initially picked him in the first. In any case I'm just glad we got him. I seems like we agree on that most important bit.

 

[get25]

Not my point. Collberg wasn't all shot either. My point was about 2-way game. Which is something Reway doesn't have.



Ikonen is a better skater than Collberg but Collberg wasn't a slouch either. And I completely disagree about IQ. People are analysing TODAY what we are seeing TODAY. Makes no sense.



Let THW tell you...And that is EXACTLY what we all thought when we got him. But seems that all is forgotten because now we have to be excited for a newer prospect. Makes no sense. Let's really hope Ikonen pans out 'cause I don't want to read in 4 years how he wasn't that good anyway....

http://thehockeywriters.com/sebasti...hl-2012-draft-prospect-profile-and-interview/

I must admit that I did not expect the trade Vanek/Collberg but in hindsight he was pretty good about Collberg.

One of the very few draft picks he gave away. But he let go many from 2012 draft.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Can we please stop with the ikonen/Collberg comparisons. They are two completely different players who have absolutely no effect on each other. There is no correlation between Collberg's failures and Ikonen's development,

 

[Whitesnake]

Can we please stop with the ikonen/Collberg comparisons. They are two completely different players who have absolutely no effect on each other. There is no correlation between Collberg's failures and Ikonen's development,

People have such a bad memory. Collberg was incredibly well seen by most agencies, by most people, was impressive against his peers at the international level, he was steal at the time, tons of teams had him in the 1st round etc.

Where I agree with you is that one development is not an indication of another. I was just saying to be careful with our analysis and prediction. That's all. Was never saying that since Collberg turned that way, so will Ikonen. I proved that's not what I thought if I picked him everywhere I could.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

I have nothing to contribute to this dispute because I have never seen either Ikonen or Collberg. I just hope for a good outcome with at least some of the prospects.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

http://www.allaboutthehabs.ca/2017-top-30-habs-prospects-4/

A long, very technical analysis by Mitch Brown on Ikonen's various tools on offense. He's really got the potential to be the total package ( And I'm not talking about Lex Luger !) .