GDT: #58: Coyotes @ Stars (6pm AZ time)

[SR]

I don't always agree with AP, but when I do, I prefer it to be when we both tell the "everything sucks" crowd that they're wrong.

Hanzal + Samuelsson + Shinnimin + Visintin for Nail Yakupov and Petry.

... and you might need to trade Doan and fire Tippett to make it work, which is what DAL did last March / June.

Seguin trade was unique and the success he's having in DAL is unique. Super-skilled kid in a bad situation and a team desperate to remedy that situation to compete. BOS needed to save a few dollars and fix a large cultural / locker room problem. DAL needed a 1C and had a young core that made Seguin feel at home. Average age of their first line is 21, and the three of them have the keys to the castle, or, rather, the ranch in Texas. Going great for them so far, but that was by no means guaranteed.

Look before you leap, SR.

I am not saying we clean the cupboards, but I am saying if you're you going to pull off a trade it needs to be one thats going to help us in the long run.

Please tell me what these players currently on the roster have done to keep them current.

Korpikoski
Moss
Klinkhammer
Schlemko
Chipchura


Korpikoski has been non existent this whole year. I have not seen anything from him that screams he deserves a roster spot.

Moss is another passenger. A floater. Someone that is expected to score or at least contribute offensively. Which he has done nothing of that sort.

Klinkhammer, again another passenger. The kid has done nothing for this team beside log minutes doing nothing. He serves no purpose on this team. He doesnt hit, forecheck, cycle the puck or fill the checking line role of a 3rd liner. I really dont see what this guy does for this team aside put in the occasional goal every 20 games or so. Not to mention I believe hes on a 2 way contract. He should be splitting time with someone else in Portland.

Schlemko at times play "ok" defense, but hes more of a liability than anything. He trys to play the role of a offensive defensman but is awful at it. I cant tell you how many times I have seen him go for that awful pinch to keep the play alive in the nuetral zone that ends up with a 2-1 and inadvertanly ends up in the back of our net.

Chipchura, believe it or not is one of my favorites, but he too has done nothing in terms of effective grit. He doesnt hit, doesnt score, and rarely can you find him standing up for his team mates anymore.

When you have guys that are cheaper in Portland that couldnt be any worse than what we currently have is frustrating. Andy Meile, in his second year with the farm club is now 12th in scoring in franchise history. Bring him up, give him a chance with on the second line with V and Hanzal, it couldnt hurt.

Lessio I think deserves another shot. A bigger body that will get in the dirty areas and play with some emotion also wouldnt hurt. Not to mention he can provide a little jam on that third line that we currently lack.

I still dont get why Gormley hasnt been looked at all year, either. I would much rather dress Gormley over Schlemko. I would also like to see what Rundblad could do over a 15 game stretch. He wasnt drafter in the first round for no reason.

I just dont see this team progressing with what we currently ice. We need some true raw talent on the top 6. We are not the cheapest team by any means when it comes to cap. So why are we still looking at 3rd to 4th line players playing in the top 6? Aside from a few great games played by Phoenix this year, namely the Pittsburgh and Chicago game we cant afford to be ok with dropping games to Dallas, Calgary, Winnipeg ect.

I know LA has been on a hell of a slide, but look what they have done over the past few years in regards to their roster. Bringing in Carter, Richards, Stoll ect have paid dividends for that team offensively without breaking the bank.

I am not saying we need to go out and do that, but why not compile the crap we currently have and invest in something that will pay off rather than just get us by.

My example of the Seguin trade was merely a suggestion to show that Dallas gave up guys that brought in a kid that will thrive in Dallas for quite some time. Seguin would be the best forward on the team if he came to Phoenix. Who says we cant do something like that? We have been so used to what we have that I think its time for a change. A change that will change the dynamic of the team. Whitney wont do that, neither will jagr or some of the other players mentioned.

We need to pull the trigger on a bigger trade and see what happens after that. Because right now, we're going to be the same in terms of points. You cant expect to win the stanley cup with what we currently have.

 

[ck26]

I am not saying we clean the cupboards ...

I am not saying we need to go out and do that, but why not compile the crap we currently have and invest in something that will pay off rather than just get us by.

My example of the Seguin trade was merely a suggestion to show that Dallas gave up guys that brought in a kid that will thrive in Dallas for quite some time. Seguin would be the best forward on the team if he came to Phoenix. Who says we cant do something like that? We have been so used to what we have that I think its time for a change. A change that will change the dynamic of the team. Whitney wont do that, neither will jagr or some of the other players mentioned.

We need to pull the trigger on a bigger trade and see what happens after that. Because right now, we're going to be the same in terms of points. You cant expect to win the stanley cup with what we currently have.

Well, Seguin already got traded, and I don't think DAL will send him to us. We could call and ask, but I think we're probably wasting our time.

You can't just "compile crap" and get a player like that ... Dallas DID clean out the cupboards for Seguin. Not everything, DAL had a lot in the cupboards, but they gave up a lot. Loui Eriksson might be the best passenger in hockey, Reilly Smith has 42 points for BOS this year, Joe Morrow is 21 and doing well in the AHL (not quite Gormley, but he's good) and Matt Fraser still has a shot at the NHL.

Hanzal + Samuelsson + Shinnimin + Visintin for Yakupov + Petry is a comparable trade to what DAL and BOS did this summer.

You down?

 

[SR]

Well, Seguin already got traded, and I don't think DAL will send him to us. We could call and ask, but I think we're probably wasting our time.

Dallas cleaned out the cupboards for Seguin. Loui Eriksson might be the best passenger in hockey, Reilly Smith has 42 points for BOS this year, Joe Morrow is 21 and doing well in the AHL (not quite Gormley, but he's good) and Matt Fraser still has a shot at the NHL.

Hanzal + Samuelsson + Shinnimin + Visintin for Yakupov + Petry is a comparable trade to what DAL and BOS did this summer.

You down?

LOL, I see what you're saying my man, but I am not saying thats the exact trade that needs to be made. And Hanzal holds a lot more in terms of value than Eriksson.

I'm just saying, if we're going to make a trade, make a splash. Bring something home thats going to mean something. Something that will shake the core, much like that Dallas trade.

How do you honestly feel of our current roster?

 

[ck26]

LOL, I see what you're saying my man, but I am not saying thats the exact trade that needs to be made. And Hanzal holds a lot more in terms of value than Eriksson.

I'm just saying, if we're going to make a trade, make a splash. Bring something home thats going to mean something. Something that will shake the core, much like that Dallas trade.

What do you honestly feel of our current roster?

I don't think we're going to win the Cup this year. I think we can make the playoffs and if things go right we can win a round, but more than that would probably require some divine intervention.

I know it's not a perfect example (maybe Taylor Hall instead of Nail Yakupov?), but my point is that it's very easy to say, "zOMG blow up the roster and get a superstar" and it's a lot harder to say, "OK, we're going to need to move this guy, this guy, this guy, dump this veteran and fire the coach to change the team's identity."

I give WJF credit for at least wanting to fire Tippett, but even he doesn't ever have an answer to the question, "OK, so who do you want to replace Tim Kennedy with the Czechs?"

GMDM deals in reality, not hopeful speculation. If the trade isn't there, the trade isn't there. He has to weigh, "is that winger worth Max Domi or Brandon Gormley?" He doesn't get to bathe in the swimming pool of abstract like we get to.

DAL took a huge leap from March-August 2013, traded their captain, their best skater, two of their best prospects, fired their coach and fired their GM. They're a completely different team this year. They're still probably two good defenders away from being a very good team, but if Seguin would have flopped in DAL, they'd be in the running for Ekblad and McDavid.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

About Tippett, he didn't ruin OEL. He didn't ruin Rundblad. There is a reason why Rundblad is on his third team already. My gripe is with Maloney for not putting together a talented enough team. He should have held on to Turris until he got something better for him. Rundblad has shown both Ottawa and Phoenix who he is as a player.

As to Domi, Tippett has a pure offensive forward on his hands. Does he want him, or does he only want 2 way forwards? That decision will determine Domi's future with the Coyotes.

 

[SR]

I don't think we're going to win the Cup this year. I think we can make the playoffs and if things go right we can win a round, but more than that would probably require some divine intervention.

I know it's not a perfect example (maybe Taylor Hall instead of Nail Yakupov?), but my point is that it's very easy to say, "zOMG blow up the roster and get a superstar" and it's a lot harder to say, "OK, we're going to need to move this guy, this guy, this guy, dump this veteran and fire the coach to change the team's identity."

I give WJF credit for at least wanting to fire Tippett, but even he doesn't ever have an answer to the question, "OK, so who do you want to replace Tim Kennedy with the Czechs?"

GMDM deals in reality, not hopeful speculation. If the trade isn't there, the trade isn't there. He has to weigh, "is that winger worth Max Domi or Brandon Gormley?" He doesn't get to bathe in the swimming pool of abstract like we get to.

DAL took a huge leap from March-August 2013, traded their captain, their best skater, two of their best prospects, fired their coach and fired their GM. They're a completely different team this year. They're still probably two good defenders away from being a very good team, but if Seguin would have flopped in DAL, they'd be in the running for Ekblad and McDavid.

Solid points. However, I don't think the band aid routine this year will do us any good in terms of progressing as a team. Your history and knowledge of Dallas is far superior than man, hence why I can't conclude that seguin trade.

I am not saying blow the roster apart, but to off load some lousy players and try and upgrade. Even if we added a guy like Brouwer (rt) or Erat or a Matt read that's a step in the right direction, I don't know. This all very well could be out of frustration too, haha.

 

[PhoPhan]

Rundblad has shown both Ottawa and Phoenix who he is as a player.

This is an absurd thing to say about a 23-year-old European defenseman with 62 career games played in the NHL, especially one who has been traded twice. Some stability would likely help him.

As to Domi, Tippett has a pure offensive forward on his hands. Does he want him, or does he only want 2 way forwards? That decision will determine Domi's future with the Coyotes.

False choice. Boedker came into the league as a purely offensive player too (albeit with only a fraction of Domi's puck skills) and despite some obvious mishandling from Gretzky, Tippett has molded him into a terrific defensive forward who might also be the most dangerous offensive weapon currently on the team.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

This is an absurd thing to say about a 23-year-old European defenseman with 62 career games played in the NHL, especially one who has been traded twice. Some stability would likely help him.

Some defense would help him. Players get bounced around for a reason.

False choice. Boedker came into the league as a purely offensive player too (albeit with only a fraction of Domi's puck skills) and despite some obvious mishandling from Gretzky, Tippett has molded him into a terrific defensive forward who might also be the most dangerous offensive weapon currently on the team.

Domi is all of 5-8, 180lbs (dripping wet and in heels, IMO) It is unreasonable to expect a player of that size to be a 2 way forward like the bigger guys.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I recorded this game, scared to watch it.

 

[cobra427]

I don't think we're going to win the Cup this year. I think we can make the playoffs and if things go right we can win a round, but more than that would probably require some divine intervention.

I know it's not a perfect example (maybe Taylor Hall instead of Nail Yakupov?), but my point is that it's very easy to say, "zOMG blow up the roster and get a superstar" and it's a lot harder to say, "OK, we're going to need to move this guy, this guy, this guy, dump this veteran and fire the coach to change the team's identity."

I give WJF credit for at least wanting to fire Tippett, but even he doesn't ever have an answer to the question, "OK, so who do you want to replace Tim Kennedy with the Czechs?"

GMDM deals in reality, not hopeful speculation. If the trade isn't there, the trade isn't there. He has to weigh, "is that winger worth Max Domi or Brandon Gormley?" He doesn't get to bathe in the swimming pool of abstract like we get to.

DAL took a huge leap from March-August 2013, traded their captain, their best skater, two of their best prospects, fired their coach and fired their GM. They're a completely different team this year. They're still probably two good defenders away from being a very good team, but if Seguin would have flopped in DAL, they'd be in the running for Ekblad and McDavid.

Taking away key pieces has risk. We no longer have AA, Rozy, and Klesla of 2 years ago. That has hurt our D even though we thought we were deep. Gordon leaving has hurt also. Whitney leaving hurt us. Yandle, Hanzel, Verby, and OEL are core pieces. I don't want to move a core piece to try and get better, too much risk. Signing a UFA like ribs or trading other assets is a safer strategy. If Smith keeps playing well, if we play hard consistently, and DM can add a little help at the TDL, I think we have a chance to make and do well in the playoffs.

Look at the goal tending for the ducks, hawks, and blues. All are suspect. Even though all 3 teams have more offensive fire power then we do, they can all fall do to poor goal tending or facing a hot goalie.

 

[PhoPhan]

Some defense would help him. Players get bounced around for a reason.

That's sort of a tautology, and at any rate, there are plenty of exceptions. Keith Ballard was traded twice before he got to Phoenix and he's played for three other teams since, but he's had a pretty productive career. Also keep in mind that Rundblad has been traded for Vladimir Tarasenko and Kyle Turris, so the teams moving him have gotten a pretty sweet return. That he's been traded twice means pretty much nothing.

Domi is all of 5-8, 180lbs (dripping wet and in heels, IMO) It is unreasonable to expect a player of that size to be a 2 way forward like the bigger guys.

Height is pretty meaningless for a forward, and he's stocky enough to be effective with the right coaching. Martin St. Louis is obviously an exceptional player, but there are more than a handful of little guys who are effective in their own zone. Definitely not a ton, but I also don't think anyone is expecting Domi to be a Selke candidate. If he can be as defensively competent as, say, Mike Ribeiro, I think he'll be fine under Tippett.

 

[ck26]

Taking away key pieces has risk ... Gordon leaving has hurt also. Whitney leaving hurt us.

Yeah, Father Time is a real mother****er, but don't confuse "it hurt the team when he left" with "it'll fix what's wrong by getting him back." 2012 Ray Whitney is dead and gone, and besides, given all the changes you mentioned, it's not like he'd be rejoining the team he left anyway.

Yandle, Hanzel, Verby, and OEL are core pieces.

Not saying you're wrong, and I'm still compiling evidence that I will present to make an argument at some point in the future, but I'm not sold that Vrbata belongs in this group. Recent talk about giving him $12m+ this summer makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up for all the wrong reasons.

I don't want to move a core piece to try and get better, too much risk. Signing a UFA like ribs or trading other assets is a safer strategy.

Signing UFA's is like buying on eBay ... you only win the item / player if you're willing to pay more for it than anyone else on the planet. You don't lose young players or draft picks, but a bad contract is a huge albatross that can drag a franchise down.

Replacement level NHL players cost $600k and look a lot like Tim Kennedy and David Schlemko. If you have a full roster of them, you'll have a $14m payroll and you'll win about 10 games a year. The success or failure of your team is how many more wins you muster for each dollar you spend on a contract beyond that first $600k.

If you're paying $8m over replacement-level (over Kennedy) and getting Sidney Crosby, he'll singlehandedly add 8 wins to your team total for the season. If you're paying David Clarkson, the $4.5m over replacement will add about 1 win. Winning the President's Trophy / making the playoffs is all about finding replacement-level players who fit your team concept and can do a job for cheap, and then getting big returns by spending big money the right way. Signing UFA's is a high-risk way to the playoffs, because you only get a player if you're willing to spend more than anyone, and there are lots of stupid GM's out there, like the one who signed David Clarkson for $30m.

My argument earlier about keeping Klinkhammer instead of trading him for Whitney is based on that I think he can do a job for $600k, while his replacement (either re-signing Whitney or replacing Whitney with another UFA) is probably going to cost a good bit more than $600k. Given how big a priority adding scoring this summer is, I want Gormley's ELC, Domi's ELC and Murphy's ELC all on the roster full-time next season, which will free up all the Klesla / Morris / Moss cash and give DM all the flexibility possible to acquire that scoring.

Respect that you don't want to move guys off that shortlist, but I just don't want anyone thinking that Klinkhammer + Rundblad + 2nd would have landed a Tyler Seguin-level player last summer. You've gotta give to get. DAL did, and they may yet regret it (Reilly Smith is a Good!), and a guy like Hanzal seems like a guy who has the size / great contract / all-around game to be the big piece another team would want for a Seguin / Hall / Yakupov / Huberdeau-type player.

 

[cobra427]

Yeah, Father Time is a real mother****er, but don't confuse "it hurt the team when he left" with "it'll fix what's wrong by getting him back." 2012 Ray Whitney is dead and gone, and besides, given all the changes you mentioned, it's not like he'd be rejoining the team he left anyway.Not saying you're wrong, and I'm still compiling evidence that I will present to make an argument at some point in the future, but I'm not sold that Vrbata belongs in this group. Recent talk about giving him $12m+ this summer makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up for all the wrong reasons.Signing UFA's is like buying on eBay ... you only win the item / player if you're willing to pay more for it than anyone else on the planet. You don't lose young players or draft picks, but a bad contract is a huge albatross that can drag a franchise down.

Replacement level NHL players cost $600k and look a lot like Tim Kennedy and David Schlemko. If you have a full roster of them, you'll have a $14m payroll and you'll win about 10 games a year. The success or failure of your team is how many more wins you muster for each dollar you spend on a contract beyond that first $600k.

If you're paying $8m over replacement-level (over Kennedy) and getting Sidney Crosby, he'll singlehandedly add 8 wins to your team total for the season. If you're paying David Clarkson, the $4.5m over replacement will add about 1 win. Winning the President's Trophy / making the playoffs is all about finding replacement-level players who fit your team concept and can do a job for cheap, and then getting big returns by spending big money the right way. Signing UFA's is a high-risk way to the playoffs, because you only get a player if you're willing to spend more than anyone, and there are lots of stupid GM's out there, like the one who signed David Clarkson for $30m.

My argument earlier about keeping Klinkhammer instead of trading him for Whitney is based on that I think he can do a job for $600k, while his replacement (either re-signing Whitney or replacing Whitney with another UFA) is probably going to cost a good bit more than $600k. Given how big a priority adding scoring this summer is, I want Gormley's ELC, Domi's ELC and Murphy's ELC all on the roster full-time next season, which will free up all the Klesla / Morris / Moss cash and give DM all the flexibility possible to acquire that scoring.

Respect that you don't want to move guys off that shortlist, but I just don't want anyone thinking that Klinkhammer + Rundblad + 2nd would have landed a Tyler Seguin-level player last summer. You've gotta give to get. DAL did, and they may yet regret it (Reilly Smith is a Good!), and a guy like Hanzal seems like a guy who has the size / great contract / all-around game to be the big piece another team would want for a Seguin / Hall / Yakupov / Huberdeau-type player.

I agree with most of your comments. I don't think Whitney is any more then maybe a temporary solution just like any other rental. Dallas likely won't trade him to help us and guys like Molson are too expensive.

Verby will get 5+ for 4 years from Coyotes or somebody else, IMHO. Dallas was a mess and that is the reason why they made the big trade. We are not a mess which is why we don't need a major shake up (trade Hanzel)......