Post-Game Talk: #54 Kings 3 at FLYERS 2 (SO), Thursday, Feb. 7, 7:00 pm ET

[baudib1]

Kinda like the Edmonton game. When you're trailing the whole game your fourth line isn't going to play much. Seems pretty obvious, but I get that people aren't used to obvious, logical stuff like this after watching Hakstol for years (he would have played Lehtera and Weise big minutes in the third).

 

[Magua]

I’d say that the shot was nice to end the game but that was all G. Ironically, that’s the player I want to have in that slot. A shooter.

Do you not see the irony of accrediting the passer for Voracek's goal (which was a pretty nice shot in its own right -- I don't know why that's like pulling teeth to say other than bias)? As if Jake doesn't provide those same great, open looks to others? You're lamenting a lack of a shooter over one of the best playmaking wingers in the league, all while saying the pass was the best play. Which is it?

He and simmer just kill drives which is tough to take in Gordon’s system as is.

Jake is one of 2 people on this team who can even create a drive singlehandedly. No one on the team is better on the boards keeping possession. This team would be gutted without his entries and puck control and playmaking. Simmer can't pass to save his life. Jake is so good a passer he tries too much at times. But that's also why he's a top line talent who is capable of point/game seasons.

Hopefully those "shooters" know how to snipe goalies clean from the NZ.

That would be nice but I just don’t see it. I think Jake should be a top 9 player but for over 2 mill less and scoring more.

You think Jake should be making ≤$6 mil? A winger who has averaged 71 points/82 games the last 7 years (on pace for just that this season), and who just had 85 points last year? All on a mediocre, sh*tty ES team, and with today's market and contract inflation? And he needs to "score" more? Talk about harping on a single weakness -- which every good player has, and at times more of them -- and ignoring a plethora of strengths. Why does he need to do so? The end game is a line/team scores, not a player.

"I think Jake should be a top 9 player but for over 2 mill less and scoring more" is a conversation ender of a statement that implicitly says, "I don't want to use logic when it comes to Voracek."

 

[DancingPanther]

Do you not see the irony of accrediting the passer for Voracek's goal (which was a pretty nice shot in its own right)? As if Jake doesn't provide those same great, open looks to others? You're lamenting a lack of a shooter over one of the best playmaking wingers in the league, all while saying the pass was the best play. Which is it?



Jake is one of 2 people on this team who can even create a drive singlehandedly. No one on the team is better on the boards keeping possession. This team would be gutted without his entries and puck control and playmaking. Simmer can't pass to save his life. Jake is so good a passer he tries too much at times. But that's also why he's a top line talent who is capable of point/game seasons.

Hopefully those "shooters" know how to snipe goalies clean from the NZ.



You think Jake should be making ≤$6 mil? A winger who has averaged 71 points/82 games the last 7 years, and who just had 85 points last year? All on a mediocre, sh*tty ES team, and with today's market and contract inflation? And he needs to "score" more? Talk about harping on a single weakness and ignoring a plethora of strengths. Why does he need to do so? The end game is a line/team scores, not a player.

"I think Jake should be a top 9 player but for over 2 mill less and scoring more" is a conversation ender of a statement that implicitly says, "I don't want to use logic when it comes to Voracek."

I would love for Giroux to score more and make 3 million dollars less.

In fact, I'd like everyone on the team to score twice as much for half the price.

Am I doing this right?

The Jake hate is, was, and always will be knuckleheaded

 

[baudib1]

William Nylander's two full seasons in the NHL look exactly like Voracek's worst seasons. Nylander's making $6M/per and he hasn't even hit UFA yet.

 

[Foggy14]

I don't think he got benched for not covering Ghost like he should have.

He got benched for his lazy ass backcheck. Seriously, he was standing straight up, not taking any strides as the puck was entering our zone.

Maybe, it's a Russian thing.

Its one think to make a mistake then bust your ass back to try and make up for it. But to make the mistake then not even try to backcheck is all about effort.

Seriously, I agree with that, but Misha was coming back as soon as Raffl turned it over and he had a good angle on Kempe who was about to take the pass from Walker.

Then Ghost got a piece of Walker's stick and the puck slid sideways past Kempe. Misha stopped and turned to try to retrieve it, but Toffoli got it, fed it to Leipsic at our blue line and that's all she wrote.

Stopping and turning in reaction to the loose puck wasn't the right play, but it also wasn't a lazy play.

The lazy play was Raffl and Varone both going for a change after Raffl's turnover, while the Kings were moving up ice. Neither was charged with a minus on the play. Nice!

Raffl got the hook as well for the most part...they "split" the blame, no?

Raffl and Phil got two more shifts for 1:50 and 1:25, respectfully.

 

[baudib1]

I was somewhat open to the idea of bringing back Raffl but at this point it feels like bringing back Matt Read. Give me all of the kids please.

 

[Magua]

I would love for Giroux to score more and make 3 million dollars less.

In fact, I'd like everyone on the team to score twice as much for half the price.

Am I doing this right?

The Jake hate is, was, and always will be knuckleheaded

Speaking of Giroux.......another earlier claim was that "Voracek can't carry a line." Well, besides his long history of doing just that, that operates under the false notion that a single player can actually do so, instead of contributing towards driving a line and improving linemate play. There are a handful of players who can do everything in all 3 zones irrespective to linemate quality.

Right now, as @Stizzle can loudly attest, Giroux is getting savaged at 5v5 with his linemates: TK and JVR. We know all 3 are good players, and that doesn't mean Giroux isn't a beast. But players need help, and when multiple parts of a line are struggling or have their inherent flaws, things spiral. So, yes, Voracek had a poor start, but the idea he could simply lift up Patrick (who was struggling himself) and the rotating LW/RW of Lindblom, Raffl, Simmonds (with their own weaknesses or struggles), is such an oversimplification. And yet he did so even last season, when those same players were playing better. Harrumph.

 

[Tripod]

William Nylander's two full seasons in the NHL look exactly like Voracek's worst seasons. Nylander's making $6M/per and he hasn't even hit UFA yet.

Actually, after this year, Nylander's cap hit is 6,962,366. But your point remains.

 

[eramosat]

Fletcher barely has to do anything difficult to help out this team.

1) Solidify the goaltending position. Bad luck here more than anything scorched this season, and a gift has already fallen into his lap. Should be simple, and cap $$ friendly.
2) Get the coaches in place that you want. I hope this is in progress. You have to look no further than last season's sad sack Islanders, and the 180 degree turn-around that squad has made to see how clearly effective coaching can make a real difference.
3) Trim the deadwood. Well under-way.
4) Decide which bigger ticket pieces are most inefficient/lacking; how many Top 10 prospects you might be willing to spend from the vault; and make some moves. Entirely optional, beyond just dealing with the upcoming UFA/RFAs, there's not a single move I would insist on, just ideas. The other factors are fundamentally more important.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

~.934 at All Situations counting tonight over the last 9.

goddamn. that is insane.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

One of the weird things about the complaints that Voracek can't carry a line is that he grades phenomenally well in SB% (% of On-Ice Shots a player contributes toward).

We're talking 95th Percentile over the last 5 years on a guy whose most common complaint is that he doesn't shoot enough. For reference, some other Flyers: Giroux 94th, Couturier 61st, Konecny 73rd.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Speaking of Giroux.......another earlier claim was that "Voracek can't carry a line." Well, besides his long history of doing just that, that operates under the false notion that a single player can actually do so, instead of contributing towards driving a line and improving linemate play. There are a handful of players who can do everything in all 3 zones irrespective to linemate quality.

Right now, as @Stizzle can loudly attest, Giroux is getting savaged at 5v5 with his linemates: TK and JVR. We know all 3 are good players, and that doesn't mean Giroux isn't a beast. But players need help, and when multiple parts of a line are struggling or have their inherent flaws, things spiral. So, yes, Voracek had a poor start, but the idea he could simply lift up Patrick (who was struggling himself) and the rotating LW/RW of Lindblom, Raffl, Simmonds (with their own weaknesses or struggles), is such an oversimplification. And yet he did so even last season, when those same players were playing better. Harrumph.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

JVR was fined $5k for his highstick on Martinez.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I don't see Hart going back to the Phantoms before the AHL playoffs unless he really goes into the tank. He's playing well, the team plays well for him, and frankly the fans want to see him play and that plays a part in this as well.

its nice to have a coach who wont run him into the ground. Gordon has his flaws as a coach, but at least he is competent with handling the goalies.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

its nice to have a coach who wont run him into the ground. Gordon has his flaws as a coach, but at least he is competent with handling the goalies.

A positive of being a goalie himself, perhaps.

 

[DancingPanther]

JVR was fined $5k for his highstick on Martinez.

That'll teach him

 

[DancingPanther]

Speaking of Giroux.......another earlier claim was that "Voracek can't carry a line." Well, besides his long history of doing just that, that operates under the false notion that a single player can actually do so, instead of contributing towards driving a line and improving linemate play. There are a handful of players who can do everything in all 3 zones irrespective to linemate quality.

Right now, as @Stizzle can loudly attest, Giroux is getting savaged at 5v5 with his linemates: TK and JVR. We know all 3 are good players, and that doesn't mean Giroux isn't a beast. But players need help, and when multiple parts of a line are struggling or have their inherent flaws, things spiral. So, yes, Voracek had a poor start, but the idea he could simply lift up Patrick (who was struggling himself) and the rotating LW/RW of Lindblom, Raffl, Simmonds (with their own weaknesses or struggles), is such an oversimplification. And yet he did so even last season, when those same players were playing better. Harrumph.

Precisely.

Giroux's impact on the game has taken a hit, really, since moving away from Coots. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

The 2 options imo are to bump up Jake to line 1 or to keep him on line 2 and bump Coots up and G to wing.

Jake and Coots are the 2 most integral top 6 pieces we have. Jakes ability to create shots is elite and Coots' possession metrics and almost supernatural ability to space the ice and be in the right position allows others the space and opportunity to thrive. I am not knocking on our other talented top 6 guys. For example, most integral (Jake + Coots) =\= most dynamic (G).

On a similar note #freeNolan from Simmonds. I think a line 2 promotion is in order. Get that kid some skill around him

 

[TheKingPin]

Do you not see the irony of accrediting the passer for Voracek's goal (which was a pretty nice shot in its own right -- I don't know why that's like pulling teeth to say other than bias)? As if Jake doesn't provide those same great, open looks to others? You're lamenting a lack of a shooter over one of the best playmaking wingers in the league, all while saying the pass was the best play. Which is it?



Jake is one of 2 people on this team who can even create a drive singlehandedly. No one on the team is better on the boards keeping possession. This team would be gutted without his entries and puck control and playmaking. Simmer can't pass to save his life. Jake is so good a passer he tries too much at times. But that's also why he's a top line talent who is capable of point/game seasons.

Hopefully those "shooters" know how to snipe goalies clean from the NZ.



You think Jake should be making ≤$6 mil? A winger who has averaged 71 points/82 games the last 7 years (on pace for just that this season), and who just had 85 points last year? All on a mediocre, sh*tty ES team, and with today's market and contract inflation? And he needs to "score" more? Talk about harping on a single weakness -- which every good player has, and at times more of them -- and ignoring a plethora of strengths. Why does he need to do so? The end game is a line/team scores, not a player.

"I think Jake should be a top 9 player but for over 2 mill less and scoring more" is a conversation ender of a statement that implicitly says, "I don't want to use logic when it comes to Voracek."

I actually said it was ironic. But jake does not get elevation on that shoot more times than not. More often than not that shot doesn’t go in. Then you are just left with the rest of that game and most other games with costly turnovers and forced passes. If Jake could shoot like that I would wouldn’t have a problem with him.

I don’t care if he can create by himself. This isn’t pick up hockey. You have to play as a team to win most games and all games against good teams.

For me to be ok with what he brings he’d be making less for sure. Or better to say, I would 100% pay a 1-2 million a year more for Panarin or the same or a bit more for Stone. Jakes a good player. He’s just not a great fit for our team.

 

[deadhead]

Looks like hagg is out. The rest are better. And a good coach knows how to Adjust to his talent not force players to play differently. Like forcing a square peg in a round hole

You're still limited by the set of skills your players possess and how they fit together.
Pittsburgh moved out half their roster, first to upgrade, then to fit Sullivan's style of coaching.

Couts is our best player, period, and post-all star Provorov is #2.
Couts has shown the last four years he's effective with anyone on his wings, scores more with better scorers, but the almost the exact same advanced metrics over that period.
Provorov, when he's playing the way he has the last few nights, could have Manning on his right side and it would be a good pairing!

The rest either have limitations or are too inexperienced to carry that weight.

Giroux is great at LW with Couts, where he doesn't have to carry a line.
JVR and Voracek are offensive players, but neither digs for the puck or goes balls to the wall on defense.
Simmonds is a top 6 talent around the net and a 4th line talent at center ice trying to skate with the puck or pass it.
Laughton needs a center to set him up and CYA so he can aggressively forecheck.

Sanheim is improving, but he should be on the left side with a veteran RHD.
Ghost is a great PP QB where he has space, but 5x5 his size and lack of top level straight line speed can leave him exposed without a good partner.
Gudas needs a LHD who can skate with the puck and let him focus on hitting people and shooting from the point.
Hagg is a younger, dumber version of Gudas.

 

[kudymen]

A guy who would play a younger, dumber version of Hagg on the top pairing sounds like some big time thinker

 

[Striiker]

It's amazing how hard some "fans" hate our best players.

Giroux, Konecny, Voracek, Ghost, Sanheim, etc etc etc for years and years.

I don't get it.

The complaints about all of them have always been so incredibly weak, if not completely fabricated. What's the point?

 

[Starat327]

It's amazing how hard some "fans" hate our best players.

Giroux, Konecny, Voracek, Ghost, Sanheim, etc etc etc for years and years.

I don't get it.

The complaints about all of them have always been so incredibly weak, if not completely fabricated. What's the point?

I'd explain, but I hit the character limit on the post and don't want to re type it. Just know it was long and very detailed and said absolutely nothing.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Voracek bad. Trade Voracek.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You're still limited by the set of skills your players possess and how they fit together.
Pittsburgh moved out half their roster, first to upgrade, then to fit Sullivan's style of coaching.

Couts is our best player, period, and post-all star Provorov is #2.
Couts has shown the last four years he's effective with anyone on his wings, scores more with better scorers, but the almost the exact same advanced metrics over that period.
Provorov, when he's playing the way he has the last few nights, could have Manning on his right side and it would be a good pairing!

The rest either have limitations or are too inexperienced to carry that weight.

Giroux is great at LW with Couts, where he doesn't have to carry a line.
JVR and Voracek are offensive players, but neither digs for the puck or goes balls to the wall on defense.
Simmonds is a top 6 talent around the net and a 4th line talent at center ice trying to skate with the puck or pass it.
Laughton needs a center to set him up and CYA so he can aggressively forecheck.

Sanheim is improving, but he should be on the left side with a veteran RHD.
Ghost is a great PP QB where he has space, but 5x5 his size and lack of top level straight line speed can leave him exposed without a good partner.
Gudas needs a LHD who can skate with the puck and let him focus on hitting people and shooting from the point.
Hagg is a younger, dumber version of Gudas.

Your whole "Sullivan isn't that good it was the roster" narrative really collapses when one remembers that Sullivan guided the team through roster-shattering injuries.

It really must bother you that Sullivan ate Hakstol alive.

 

[deadhead]

It's amazing how hard some "fans" hate our best players.

Giroux, Konecny, Voracek, Ghost, Sanheim, etc etc etc for years and years.

I don't get it.

The complaints about all of them have always been so incredibly weak, if not completely fabricated. What's the point?

So why are we getting outshot and out scoring chanced every game?
Since our current players are so great.
I mean Gordon may not be a rocket scientist, but these elite veterans should be able to execute even a simple scheme.

Without Hart and Stolarz playing lights out, we'd have a worse record than under Hakstol, something similar to Chicago under Q last year when Crawford got injured.

Or maybe our curent talent, as a group, just isn't as good as some people think?