Post-Game Talk: #54 | Canadiens 3 at FLYERS 5 | Thu., Feb. 8, 2018, 7:00 pm ET

[FatTugboatFlahr]

Surprisingly he’s not worst. He’s still terrible & towards the bottom of the league in most of those categories but there’s about a handful worse. The names aren’t terribly shocking either Gudbranson, Orpik, etc. His PDO is still pretty high even league wide but it’s coming down obviously.

I shudder to think of his stats when his PDO levels off.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Unless you're an incredibly deep team, your 3rd defensemen should be toward the bottom.

It's not Hagg's fault we have two top defensemen, one second pair guy playing below his norm, and a bunch of mediocre veterans and rookies who are forced to play more minutes than they should (and that includes Sanheim who played protected minutes skewed toward O-zone starts).

MacDonald is the big disappointment, no one expected him to be an allstar candidate, but basic competence would be nice - stick a fork in him. He may be worse than Schultz last year.

If MacDonald is disappointing you, you had unrealistic expectations.

 

[Curufinwe]

Manning, even after his two week funk, is not having a bad season.

39g 6-4 10 (only 1 PP point), how many D-men score 20+ ES each year?
50.0% Corsi, 0.7% CorsiRel, E +/- 1.3
49.3% of his shots are on net, second only to Gudas at 55%
GF/60 2.2; GA/60 2.3.
Rough PK GA/60 at 12.2, but CorsiRel 0.7%

He may not be pretty but Manning is a legitimate third pair defenseman and could probably start for at least half the teams in the NHL.

None of those numbers are particularly impressive given his sheltered usage. He has the same number of ES points in the same number of games as MacDonald, who you just stuck a fork in (you also have Manning's goals and assists reversed.)

Take Manning away from Gudas to play with Hagg or MacDonald against better players and his Corsi would sink like a stone. His CF% without Gudas is 45.06%. And you don't even think Corsi is important when it comes to comparing Hagg and Sanheim - why is it somehow now important for ranking Manning?

Manning has the worst ES GF% on the team apart from Sanheim, and unlike Sanheim there isn't an unsustainably low on ice SV% to explain it.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Tripod]

Hagg has not got worse either... just his luck ran out:

October: 44.34 CF%, 58.02 CA/60 (.957 on ice sv%)
November: 47.75 CF%, 62.13 CA/60 (.952 on ice sv%)
December: 41.76 CF%, 64 CA/60 (.931 on ice sv%)
January-present: 48.28 CF%, 60.33 CA/60 (.914 on ice sv%)

Yet now people are talking about him hitting a wall etc... nah, just exactly what people said would happen is happening. His lucky horseshoe fell off and he is regressing towards a below average bottom pair Dman.

Anyway to know what his PDO was each month to go along with this.

I thinks it's great when PROOF is shown, like you posted. But it will be ignored by certain people as we expected.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Sounds about right from what I saw. Thanks for the info. Is there any way to figure out if that line was any better/worse once Patrick was replaced by Flip? Or how Patrick fared once he got demoted?

Simmonds' CF% was 33.33% with Filppula in 5:48 together, vs. 23.53% with Patrick in 7:19.

Voracek's CF% was 40% with Filppula in 5:45 together, vs. 27.78% with Patrick in 7:57.

 

[Curufinwe]

Anyway to know what his PDO was each month to go along with this.

I thinks it's great when PROOF is shown, like you posted. But it will be ignored by certain people as we expected.

If PDO is the same as Shooting Plus Save % then you can use the date ranges on the NHL site.

NHL.com - Stats

 

[hatcher]

Simmonds' CF% was 33.33% with Filppula in 5:48 together, vs. 23.53% with Patrick in 7:19.

Voracek's CF% was 40% with Filppula in 5:45 together, vs. 27.78% with Patrick in 7:57.

That whole line sucked the life out of the team. Terrible for your best to be that out of it. Never see that in other teams games. Points are hard to come by let alone try to give them away.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Nothing like posters who trash Corsi when it doesn't fit what they want it to fit, but gladly cite it when it shows what they want to see.

 

[Young Sandwich]

That whole line sucked the life out of the team. Terrible for your best to be that out of it. Never see that in other teams games. Points are hard to come by let alone try to give them away.

You've never seen another team's top players have a rough game? You're better than that Hatcher!

Patrick's line has been fantastic the last few weeks. They had a stinker last night. Shit happens. They still won the game so no harm no foul.

 

[Curufinwe]

Still not too late to send him to Brandon!

 

[hatcher]

You've never seen another team's top players have a rough game? You're better than that Hatcher!

Patrick's line has been fantastic the last few weeks. They had a stinker last night. **** happens. They still won the game so no harm no foul.

Not that bad. SOme night you don't get the bounces but that sucked and the 3 would tell you that. Passing sucked,no compete but thankfully V got that one back to save the game. I'll give him that.

 

[hatcher]

You've never seen another team's top players have a rough game? You're better than that Hatcher!

Patrick's line has been fantastic the last few weeks. They had a stinker last night. **** happens. They still won the game so no harm no foul.

I go game to game and I watch the main players not the shit cause every team has them. G was sucking for awhile and said he needed to be better and f***in was. Now it is the whole 2nd lines turn to get it going after that shit show.

 

[Curufinwe]

Hagg might be the horrible defensive partner...

It's definitely a horrible decision to put the two worst possession dmen together for an extended period when there are other options.

Hagg-Gudas
Sanheim-MacDonald

 

[Tripod]

He may not be pretty but Manning is a legitimate third pair defenseman and could probably start for at least half the teams in the NHL.

Boy that is a ringing endorsement....lol.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Anyway to know what his PDO was each month to go along with this.

I thinks it's great when PROOF is shown, like you posted. But it will be ignored by certain people as we expected.

October- 112.0
November- 103.5
December- 102.0
January- 98.2
February- 91.7 (4 games)

 

[Curufinwe]

If Manning suddenly got benched for a few weeks, he'd use the same stats to show that it was a wise decision by Hakstol to make a change.

 

[Tripod]

October- 112.0
November- 103.5
December- 102.0
January- 98.2
February- 91.7 (4 games)

Thank you. The decline is stunning. On a positive note, February "sould" go up.

 

[deadhead]

I know what Corsi is, but it has to be used in context, it's not the be all and end all.
My point is simply that Manning doesn't have terrible stats, nor was he sheltered, and his PDO is 97.5.
MacDonald, Provorov and Hagg get the toughest matchups, Sanheim, Gudas and Ghost (though this will change) the easiest.

Manning is not a good player, but he's not trash, he's what w have had and most teams have on their 3rd pair.
When you get past the top 120 or so defensemen around the NHL, what's left isn't going to thrill most fans.

 

[deadhead]

If MacDonald is disappointing you, you had unrealistic expectations.

My expectations was a competent veteran 3rd pair defenseman, not someone who plays closer to a 7th D-man level.
MacDonald actually started the season pretty decently, but has been in a tail spin for the last month or so.

 

[Curufinwe]

Most teams don't have a prospect like Sanheim, and if they did, they wouldn't have him in the AHL closing in on his 22nd birthday in favor of a plug like Barf.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Thank you. The decline is stunning. On a positive note, February "sould" go up.

He's 100.6 since November. So pretty much league average for 42 games now. His saving grace, his +/- , is all because of a ridiculous first month of the season. And no coach eats up small sample size anomalies like Dave Hakstol.

 

[Curufinwe]

MacDonald actually started the season pretty decently, but has been in a tail spin for the last month or so.

By what metric? His SAT% (CF%) is much higher in 2018 than it was in 2017. SAT REL% went from -5 to -6; hardly a "tail spin".

NHL.com - Stats

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Beef Invictus]

My expectations was a competent veteran 3rd pair defenseman, not someone who plays closer to a 7th D-man level.
MacDonald actually started the season pretty decently, but has been in a tail spin for the last month or so.

He's been AHL/Bottom Pair level since last year. Your expectations were too high. That your boy Hakstol continues to rely on him is an indictment on Hakstol.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Nothing like posters who trash Corsi when it doesn't fit what they want it to fit, but gladly cite it when it shows what they want to see.

If you're referring to me, I was simply responding to Trout's question about if anyone knew what the Patrick line's Corsi was last night, and then his follow up question about if there was a way to see the difference in Corsi once Filppula took Patrick's spot.

I still think Corsi is a flawed stat that is useful with context but not nearly the magic, God-like rating that many treat it as.

When Weise and Read are in your top 5 in CF% last year, you know the stat isn't the end all be all.

And those who treat Corsi with God-like reverence tend to ignore that, and also ignore that Provorov has a below 50 Corsi (worse than Manning's) and a slightly negative Corsi Rel.

 

[boxcar65]

Eh, maybe Sanheim is just not as good as everyone thinks.

#bringbackMandog