Because, as you have selectively ignored, they are at different stages of their careers. The 7 year age gap is quite significant. That's why you need to compare best on best. And when you compare best on best Henrik wins.
50 Years from now, NHL History books, Top 3 players mentioned (from this era)
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Because, as you have selectively ignored, they are at different stages of their careers. The 7 year age gap is quite significant. That's why you need to compare best on best. And when you compare best on best Henrik wins.
Old Gregg
I'm Old Gregg!!
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It means that just because Sedin has more assists, doesn't necessarily make him a better playmaker than Crosby. Look at their respective linemates during their best years. D. Sedin was a better goal scorer than any winger Crosby has played with since he's come into the league.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
But I'm including Sedin's prime, I'm not forgetting about it and only including Sedin's seasons of being past his prime. Actually, as a matter of fact, I'm actually doing Sedin a favor by using his 25-34 years as opposed to his total career, it would be even more lopsided if I used his entire career.
As a matter of fact, Sedin's peak season was when he was 29, which Sid isn't even at yet (he won't be 29 until the 16-17 season). So it seems kinda stupid to say that Sedin's best was better than Crosby's best when Sedin peaked at an age that Crosby isn't even at yet. I'd say it's not an unsafe bet to say that Crosby's best assist season will be in the next few seasons, that's right when Sedin peaked. The only way that Sedin beats Crosby in assists per game is if you compare a 26-31 year old Sedin to a 18-27 year old Crosby while not including any seasons where Crosby did not play in 70 games. The difference if you do that is minuscule as well, it's .840 assist/game for Crosby compared to .848 for Sedin. So you have to make a lot of number manipulations and compare a player in his prime to a developing player to prove your point.
So no, back to your original point, I don't think Sedin is clearly the 2nd best playmaker in this generation. You have to heavily play with stats and make baseless omissions (like saying you can't include shortened seasons because it inflates point totals, which I've already shown to be false; it inflates individual season paces, not career totals) to prove that he has the 2nd best assists/game ratio. Oh yeah, you also have to ignore linemates, which I think has a big factor that I have tried to avoid addressing (Sedin>anyone Crosby has had for any extended period of time as a linemate).
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If Thornton counts for this era then he will probably be at least an honorable mention. Maybe not the most glowing remembering but he will be. Hall of fame caliber talent that will be in the top 15 or 20 all time in points but never win a Cup.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
It'll be interesting to see how he's perceived in the future. I suspect his reputation improves dramatically... perhaps when Jagr retires and people realize Thornton and Iginla are a mile ahead of the next active player in points. Perhaps when he starts passing guys like Sundin, Lafleur, Modano and Hull. Perhaps it'll take till after his retirement, when people tend to ease up on stuff like holding players' lack of Cups against them.
I mean, realistically Ovechkin and Crosby appear to be the only players in a clear position to pass him eventually. That's pretty good.
Stupid Sexy Flanders
Registered User
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Giguere's performance in 03 will be in the history books, and I can't think of anything since then that's been greater. (Kings fan)
You realize players develop and peak at different ages, right? Crosby was one of the quickest developed players in NHL history. But that said, he peaked early on. Players that take longer to develop like Sedin have their peak years later.
You are assuming that because Sedin had his peak assist season at 29, Crosby will as well? You have Crosby topping 84 assists? Are you thinking before typing or do you seriously believe that?
And you haven't proven shortened seasons don't inflate point totals. Full seasons actually allow for cold stretches that happen to every player. If you omit them completely by a player doing the following
20 game hotstreak, refuses to play (X5)
That is not the same sample size as a full season
You don't have to manipulate anything. You simply have to look at a sample of the best years of the respected players when they play full seasons. This is fair to both as its comparing players who have played entire seasons, and it examines their best bodies of work. And that said Sedin is the better playmaker. But Crosby is pretty good as well.
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
What does this have to do with the topic of the thread? Are you arguing that Sedin will be remembered with Crosby and Ovechkin as one of the top 3 players of the era?
It all started from me saying Thornton should get some consideration as a top 3 player for the era as he is the best playmaker. I added a footnote about the other two that rounded out the top 3, and one poster took offense and has been arguing non-stop with me about it even though I keep proving he is wrong. I would like to drop it but he keeps at.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
84 assists in 06-07 is equivalent to 77 assists today (had 68 in 13-14, so not a massive jump), which I think is doable for Crosby now that he has an elite sniping linemate like Kessel.
And yes, you do have to manipulate stats to prove this. Disregarding seasons where Crosby didn't play entire seasons is manipulating stats. And even if you do everything you're doing and take out all of Crosby's shortened seasons and ignore games played and only include Sedin's 5 best seasons, Sedin's assists per game ratio is .008 better than Crosby's. That's not even 1 assist in 100 games, and again, that's completely ignoring linemates and not including seasons where Crosby was playing at his highest levels (2010-2013) and only including Sedin's best years. So yes, that is some major number manipulations. You're taking out Crosby's best seasons by arbitrarily saying that his career assist totals are inflated from shortened seasons (which I showed was false, btw) and comparing what's left to Sedin's 5 best seasons.
But like what was posted above, this isn't relevant to this thread. If you want to continue the discussion, go make a thread with this opinion and see other people's reactions. I can guarantee that they'll be echoing my statements.
Lolololololololol
You know, I'm not forcing you to reply. You can just ignore me if you want to drop it so bad.
But unless something happens (e.g. a Conn Smythe), he's still going to have the "Marcel Dionne" playoff non-performer tag. Rightly or wrongly, he is the first player who's name is going to come up when the term "playoff choker" is thrown out. He's made some progress in recent years, but I actually expect the view of his playoff resume to get worse after he retires, not better. It's not just that he doesn't have any Cups, its that he has a reputation for playing poorly in the playoffs.
Like Dionne, Thornton has some all time great stats (he won't end up top 10 all time like Dionne, but his 90 assist seasons put him in some incredibly elite company), so he won't be totally forgotten, but his playoff resume is always going to hold him back.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
Thorntons playoff resume and choker status is widely over exaggerated though. He just has the misfortune of not having another elite player along side him. When Thornton has had those series where he didn't produce, his wingers don't produce, and the Sharks have never had the depth to make up for the difference.
A lot of people don't realize this and just like the hop of the choker bandwagon without actually being fully aware of his situation.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
The guy isn't retired yet, ya know
He still has time to Andreychuk his way to a Cup. But assuming nothing changes, I think we'll see a big change in attitude around the time Thornton retires. Because after him on the era scoring list is going to be Jarome Iginla and his zero Cups. Followed by guys like Alfredsson, Marleau, the Sedins, and Doan. They'll all likely be overtaken by a Cupless Ovechkin who is undoubtedly top-3 in this generation.
People are going to have to get used to evaluating players in the context of a 30-team league, where Cups are the exception rather than the rule.
MXD
Original #4
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Henrik Sedin is not a better playmaker than Crosby. He has literally 2 seasons on Crosby's level of playmaking.
Non-playoff performer? It's a double edge sword. On one hand he was on the team that was up 3-0 and lost 4-3. On the other hand he has performed miracles like
He needs a few more of the latter in the next few playoffs.
2 seasons? He has like 2 seasons not at his level in the last while. And 2 or more beyond it.
He had one less assist last season despite being 34. He is still on his level even though he is largely passed his prime.
Or maybe Daniel is a mostly a product of Henrik. Really hard to tell as they have played with each other their entire careers together. And they are both very different than any others set of players. So even more difficult to conclude.
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
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Anyone who doesn't have Crosby and Ovechkin as two of their three is either a]a hater of whichever they left off the list or b]knows absolutely nothing about hockey and whose opinion should be forever ignored.
After those two, there's a few players who've made a case for being a top three player of this generation. I don't know if I'd include Lidstrom in this generation, as I always think of him as playing with guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg, etc. This generation, IMO, is basically from about the 2005 lockout and on.
After those two, there's a few players who've made a case for being a top three player of this generation. I don't know if I'd include Lidstrom in this generation, as I always think of him as playing with guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg, etc. This generation, IMO, is basically from about the 2005 lockout and on.
412 Others
5Cups beats 2Cups
so the desperation move that ovechkin fans use to downplay sid's superior offensive productivity is to compare the total career reg season points for the 2 players. (and completely ignore context) but if you use the exact same logic while factoring in the defensively tighter playoff games, which puts sid on top, that's flawed logic
apparently, for some, power play goals in garbage time against the southeast division will carry more weight than postseason production.
apparently, for some, power play goals in garbage time against the southeast division will carry more weight than postseason production.
WiscoBlues
Registered User
so the desperation move that ovechkin fans use to downplay sid's superior offensive productivity is to compare the total career reg season points for the 2 players. (and completely ignore context) but if you use the exact same logic while factoring in the defensively tighter playoff games, which puts sid on top, that's flawed logic
apparently, for some, power play goals in garbage time against the southeast division will carry more weight than postseason production.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but Crosby's playoff performance hasn't been all that spectacular in recent years (or at least up to the level you would expect from him).
when it's all said and done I think the top 3 will be:
Crosby
Ovechkin
McDavid
if we're sticking with guys that have actually proven something, I'd swap McDavid with Karlsson
I agree with this, but I don't think it applies to Thornton. He's not criticized for not having Cups, he's criticized for being bad in the playoffs.
Having said that, public opinion isn't always completely logical. If Thornton does win a Cup before he's done, I suspect it will largely erase his "choker" label, even if he's a mere passenger on the team.
As for the "choker" label being overblown, there's certainly an argument for that. Still, whether you believe it to be true or not (personally, I think his performance versus Anaheim in '09 was one of the worst I've ever seen by a star player), it's a major part of Thornton's story, and I don't think it's going to disappear into history. He's certainly had better playoffs since then, but he's never had an otherworldly playoffs to erase the stigma of some of his earlier efforts.
As noted, he's not done yet, so things could change, but I'm guessing history remembers him as a great regular season playmaker who under-performed in the playoffs.
We'll see though. Heck, sometimes historical opinions fluctuate, so we might see times where he's super-respected for the points and assists he put up during the dead puck era, and times where he's a go to example of a "choker."
