Post-Game Talk: 5.5.13| Penguins Topple Islanders in Overtime

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MtlPenFan

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Apr 14, 2010
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What did Sid and Kunitz do even strength?

And I am not positive switching Kunitz and Iginla makes Crosby's line better. But it sure as hell will make Geno's line better. Whatever Sid's line may lose (which may be nothing) we will make up for by having Geno and Kunitz rolling on the 2nd line.

I don't care if it makes Sid's line better. I care if it makes the team better.

Sid's line hasn't been great 5 on 5 because he's not himself yet. He looked slow, tentative and weak along the boards in game two, but he looked much better yesterday, and will look even better tomorrow.

Geno annoys me because he has to be treated like a primadonna flake even though he necessarily isn't one.

He's talented enough to transcend linemates and matchups, but for whatever reason there are always caveats with him.

In other words, if a shaved ape on his left wing makes him a better player even though it makes zero sense, you have to dress a shaved ape and stick him on the left side.
 

KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
109,700
51,216
The question is not whether or not Dupers-Crosby-Iggy is better than Kunitz-Crosby-Dupers, but whether or not Dupers-Crosby-Iggy and Kunitz-Malkin-Neal is better than Kunitz-Crosby-Dupers and Iggy-Malkin-Neal.

Not for Dan Bylsma it isn't.
 

KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
109,700
51,216
Sid's line hasn't been great 5 on 5 because he's not himself yet. He looked slow, tentative and weak along the boards in game two, but he looked much better yesterday, and will look even better tomorrow.

Geno annoys me because he has to be treated like a primadonna flake even though he necessarily isn't one.

He's talented enough to transcend linemates and matchups, but for whatever reason there are always caveats with him.

In other words, if a shaved ape on his left wing makes him a better player even though it makes zero sense, you have to dress a shaved ape and stick him on the left side.

Read the Colligan article about uniting Crosby and Iginla: http://thehockeywriters.com/jarome-iginla-sidney-crosby-linemates/.

Here's the part about why Malkin doesn't mesh with Iginla:

'As Rossi alluded to, it takes a special player to mesh with Malkin.

I’m not convinced Jarome Iginla is that player.

We discussed Malkin’s quirks in this article on Brenden Morrow a few weeks ago. He’s unpredictable — like a mad scientist on the ice. He improvises. And he expects his linemates to read his mind.

Iginla is a more straightforward player. He wins battles in the corner and behind the net. He uses his big shot to score off the rush. The perfect complement to Sidney Crosby.'

People focus so much with 'mood' in the Jagr comparison that what they really miss is that the 'mad scientist' comparison is what makes more sense. How in the heck could Jagr make **** like Hrdina and Miller look incredible but never quite mesh with more 'talented' guys? How could Malkin make Talbot look like a vital cog in a cup run and Malone, who at best was up and down with Sid, into a mega dollar player that TB paid unreal dollars to get?

Because just as Hrdina and Miller could read Jagr's mind, guys like Malone and Talbot could read Geno's mind.

Sid and Malkin are different. Sid is north-south on a team full of north-south guys. For anyone who can sort of keep up with him, he'll make them look good. And, if they're talented enough and they work together enough, then they can dominate, in the regular season at least, as we've seen with Sid with Kunitz and Dupuis.

Every game for Malkin is more like a rorschach test . . . he needs a Malone and a Sykora or a Talbot and a Fedotenko, he needs both of them to get him, and he doesn't need them to be elite. But, the combination of roles is absolutely critical. One without the other, and you get how Malkin and Neal looked together with the revolving door of wingers the first half of the season.

That Dan Bylsma never has figured out the difference is why the Pens never will be the team they could be until either Bylsma or Malkin is gone.

Yes, he figured it out in 2009 . . . the desperation of a 2-0 series deficit to the Caps and the superfluous work of Feds and Sykora (not unlike it has been and will be with Iginla and Neal) forced that. Last year, Kunitz only got there after Sid went out again and there was question if he'd even return last year.

Aside from that, finding the right combination of wingers for Malkin is something that has fallen below Bylsma's thoughts as to what a great third line would be in terms of importance.

It is what it is . . . maybe we'll get lucky again when Neal returns.

EDIT: Here's the Colligan article on the Morrow acquisition and why he might work with Malkin: http://thehockeywriters.com/penguins-acquire-brenden-morrow/

'What always caught my attention during Morrow’s time in Dallas was his ability to excel alongside talented, creative players.

Morrow had amazing chemistry with center Mike Ribeiro for a number of years before Ribeiro was traded to Washington last summer. At just under 180 pounds, Ribeiro is what you might call an ‘east-west player’ — someone who creates space for himself by weaving and cutting back and forth across the ice. East-west players can actually be some of the toughest to play with because you can’t predict where they’ll be from one second to the next.
Morrow might be the ideal left winger for Evgeni Malkin (HermanVonPetri/Flickr)

Morrow might be the ideal left winger for a spontaneous player like Malkin (HermanVonPetri/Flickr)

Sidney Crosby, a talented north-south type player, is methodical in his dominance. He tells his linemates to go to certain places on the ice and then he picks apart a defense like a surgeon.

Evgeni Malkin, on the other hand, is more in the mold of Ribeiro. His offensive brilliance is spontaneous and often has a flair for the dramatic. Malkin doesn’t want the puck where he is right now. He expects you to read his mind and know where he’s going to be. When you can’t, you’ll get the cold shoulder for the next three shifts.


There’s a reason dozens of wingers have come and gone from his line over the years. It takes a special type of player to not only survive, but excel alongside a Ribeiro or Malkin.'
 

Whakahere

Registered User
Jan 27, 2004
1,817
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Germany
Not for Dan Bylsma it isn't.

And this is what I don't get. Malkin is unpredictable and from the years watching him needs to develop chemistry for his line to work well. Putting him with players that understand him Like koon and neal and he is MVP. Scary as hell too.

Sid on the other hand seems to make everyone around him play better because his game is more predictable. Luckily for us he is just awesome at it. Iggy will just need to find open lanes and use his shot as crosby and duper are ready for back checking.

3 games in and if we stand pat with the same game tactics (looks that way as optional practice) then the change up better be smarter line combos.
 

Rocket of Russia

Needs more Tang
Mar 8, 2012
3,463
5
USA
Read the Colligan article about uniting Crosby and Iginla: http://thehockeywriters.com/jarome-iginla-sidney-crosby-linemates/.

Here's the part about why Malkin doesn't mesh with Iginla:

'As Rossi alluded to, it takes a special player to mesh with Malkin.

I’m not convinced Jarome Iginla is that player.

We discussed Malkin’s quirks in this article on Brenden Morrow a few weeks ago. He’s unpredictable — like a mad scientist on the ice. He improvises. And he expects his linemates to read his mind.

Iginla is a more straightforward player. He wins battles in the corner and behind the net. He uses his big shot to score off the rush. The perfect complement to Sidney Crosby.'

We've only said that for how long now? That should be a slogan: "So obvious, even HF boards saw it."
 

radapex

Registered User
Sep 21, 2012
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Sid and Malkin are different. Sid is north-south on a team full of north-south guys. For anyone who can sort of keep up with him, he'll make them look good. And, if they're talented enough and they work together enough, then they can dominate, in the regular season at least, as we've seen with Sid with Kunitz and Dupuis.

My major concern is still that I don't believe Iginla has the speed to even come close to keeping up with Crosby now. Obviously, that doesn't mean Malkin should be saddled with him either. It seems to be Bennett-Malkin-Neal had some good chemistry, so why not try

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Bennett-Malkin-Neal
Morrow-Jokinen-Iginla
Cooke-Sutter-Adams


Iginla today is a shadow of the Iginla that played with Crosby at the Olympics over 3 years ago.
 

Abashaw

Registered User
Jan 14, 2013
31
2
Even though this probably isn't true and iggys personality isn't like this but for some reason I have this funny feeling that iggy really wants to play on the same line as sid at which point he'll kick his compete level up a notch. Right now its like he's "settling" for malkin and just coasting around because of that.
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
14,397
6,439
Read the Colligan article about uniting Crosby and Iginla: http://thehockeywriters.com/jarome-iginla-sidney-crosby-linemates/.

Here's the part about why Malkin doesn't mesh with Iginla:

'As Rossi alluded to, it takes a special player to mesh with Malkin.

I’m not convinced Jarome Iginla is that player.

We discussed Malkin’s quirks in this article on Brenden Morrow a few weeks ago. He’s unpredictable — like a mad scientist on the ice. He improvises. And he expects his linemates to read his mind.

Iginla is a more straightforward player. He wins battles in the corner and behind the net. He uses his big shot to score off the rush. The perfect complement to Sidney Crosby.'

Since when?
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,579
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So serious question.

If certain things are so apparent to everyone, why not to Bylsma?

If teams are leaving a forward back and posting that forward and both defensemen in the passing lanes to disrupt his system, is he blind to it when everyone else sees it?

If Iginla looks awful on LW, and especially on Malkin's wing, is he blind to it?

Reasonable minds can disagree on things, so usually even if I do not agree with someone, I can at least see where they are coming from.

In this case? I am at a loss.

Someone at least try and explain what Bylsma is thinking to stick with what is not working.
 

Bengui

Registered User
Jul 24, 2009
5,194
0
So serious question.

If certain things are so apparent to everyone, why not to Bylsma?

If teams are leaving a forward back and posting that forward and both defensemen in the passing lanes to disrupt his system, is he blind to it when everyone else sees it?

If Iginla looks awful on LW, and especially on Malkin's wing, is he blind to it?

Reasonable minds can disagree on things, so usually even if I do not agree with someone, I can at least see where they are coming from.

In this case? I am at a loss.

Someone at least try and explain what Bylsma is thinking to stick with what is not working.

Because he thinks the players are underperforming/getting unlucky, and everything will come together once they "get to their game" ?
Everytime he says "we didn't get to our game", this is how I understand it : My game plan is great, but the execution was poor, so don't look at me.
 

Waffle Fries

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
18,086
2
My major concern is still that I don't believe Iginla has the speed to even come close to keeping up with Crosby now. Obviously, that doesn't mean Malkin should be saddled with him either. It seems to be Bennett-Malkin-Neal had some good chemistry, so why not try

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Bennett-Malkin-Neal
Morrow-Jokinen-Iginla
Cooke-Sutter-Adams


Iginla today is a shadow of the Iginla that played with Crosby at the Olympics over 3 years ago.

Well how about giving him a chance there first before deciding he's too slow for it to work?

Even though this probably isn't true and iggys personality isn't like this but for some reason I have this funny feeling that iggy really wants to play on the same line as sid at which point he'll kick his compete level up a notch. Right now its like he's "settling" for malkin and just coasting around because of that.

I feel that way as well. I know he said he came to play with 'the two best players in the world' but I honestly believe he came to play with Sid. Iggy absolutely lights up when he talks about him.

However, if Iggy does get to play with Sid and suddenly looks better, I don't think it will be because of an increase in compete level. It will be because they'll actually be a good fit as linemates.
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
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Nobody knows that answer, jaded. But it looks now the media is finally on him about it. Dan isn't as dumb as we think. Stubborn, maybe. The players need to step it up, too.

I'm interested to see what team comes to play. I'm not buying what Dan is selling though.
 

Abashaw

Registered User
Jan 14, 2013
31
2
I think DB is just stubborn and doesn't like change...he's like my dad...maybe thats why I can tolerate DB better than most on this board :laugh:
 

Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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Nobody knows that answer, jaded. But it looks now the media is finally on him about it. Dan isn't as dumb as we think. Stubborn, maybe. The players need to step it up, too.

I'm interested to see what team comes to play. I'm not buying what Dan is selling though.

Remember I said it here first.

4-1 win for the Pens tomorrow.

We have seen this story too. All credit to the Isles, they have played a brilliant game and worked circles around the Pens' players. But in the end they just aren't that great a team. How in the world do you give up almost 5 goals a game (4.77)? The Pens have been in this position before, a few times, where they can put the heel of their boot on the neck of a team, and almost always have responded. And if going down 2-0 in the last game was not a wake up call that they were going to under perform and go one and done again, nothing will be. I expect to see a different Pens team finally show up tomorrow.

And conversely the Isle's have been flying on emotion, they are due for a letdown, and for the first time expectation pressures are on that young team. They came back from late 2 goal deficits twice now. That can not keep up forever either. And despite doing the best I think that team is capable of, and the Pens playing some of their worst hockey of the year, they still are down 2-1.

Mark my words, 4-1 Pens. And remember you heard it here first.
 

roready

Brink, Truth, Life
Jul 10, 2012
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0
iligbpa
And this is why the media frustrates me.

Obviously they can't be like us message board a-holes and start calling players useless at a presser, but why hasn't ONE ****ing reporter brought up a simple question like "Dan, don't you think Vitale's speed and energy would provide a boost against a team like the Islanders?"

I haven't disliked a player on this team the way I dislike Glass in a long time.

How about a question for DB about Iginla and Sid playing together? The reporter would have to be cleaver and ask it without letting Dan get away with saying Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis are staying together because they work, so something like:

"Dan, While Sid was injured and not playing, Kunitz had some good chemistry with Malkin, do you think that Kunitz and Malkin might be better together than Malkin and Iginla, and Iginla might play well with Sid on Right Wing along with Dupuis on Sid's left wing, since Iginla and Sid did have some good chemistry during the Olympics?" OR they could just not mention the Olympics at the end if they don't want Dan saying the Olympics were three years ago.

We need a close to full proof question to push why Iginla would not be good with Crosby on a line.

Edit: Sorry, I meant clever not cleaver - I guess it was a Freudian slip (thinking about the cutting DB thread got me excited while writing this).
 
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Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
Sid's line hasn't been great 5 on 5 because he's not himself yet. He looked slow, tentative and weak along the boards in game two, but he looked much better yesterday, and will look even better tomorrow.

Geno annoys me because he has to be treated like a primadonna flake even though he necessarily isn't one.

He's talented enough to transcend linemates and matchups, but for whatever reason there are always caveats with him.

In other words, if a shaved ape on his left wing makes him a better player even though it makes zero sense, you have to dress a shaved ape and stick him on the left side.

That's cool and all, but you have to consider the ridiculous number of wingers that have been played on his line while Crosby's linemates have been nearly constant. That certainly has an effect on his play and developing chemistry. James Neal has been his main constant and look how that turned out. The dude does need a special type of linemate, but it's not like he's THAT hard to play with. It's just that we've had **** options until this season.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,285
28,264
Yeah... chemistry is kind of important.

Even if the coach has said in the past that he doesn't believe in it.

Besides ideally having a very good puck retriever/grinder with some hands and a sniper (and what center wouldn't love that?), I don't completely buy the "special kind of winger" that Malkin "needs." He plays better with consistent linemates. That's really all there is to it.
 

IcedCapp

Registered User
Aug 7, 2009
35,933
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I hope Jiggy can/will back me up on this, but:

The Iginla you're seeing now is NOT Iginla. And I'm not saying this as a person who is unwilling to believe a former star and future HoFer is declining, I'm saying this as someone who watched him a lot JUST THIS SEASON. He wasn't this slow with Calgary. I guarantee you that 100% of his "slowness" is related to "thinking-itis." The best, most-sure way to slow down an athlete is to get them to think. He's not just playing, and it's causing him problems. Part of that is Geno, part of that is scheme, part of that is position. This is the biggest problem with the shortened season. I do think he'd be better with Sid than Geno.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,543
22,061
Pittsburgh
Sid's line hasn't been great 5 on 5 because he's not himself yet. He looked slow, tentative and weak along the boards in game two, but he looked much better yesterday, and will look even better tomorrow.

Geno annoys me because he has to be treated like a primadonna flake even though he necessarily isn't one.

He's talented enough to transcend linemates and matchups, but for whatever reason there are always caveats with him.

In other words, if a shaved ape on his left wing makes him a better player even though it makes zero sense, you have to dress a shaved ape and stick him on the left side.

Geno is what he is. He needs the right guys with him. Sid can work with most anybody who can play a north south game. I am of the opinion that we should always try to set Geno up to succeed first, because Sid will make whatever is left work. At least with our current roster.

At this point, Kunitz would be glued to Geno's left wing just as strongly as Neal is glued to his right when he's healthy. Dupuis - Sid - Iginla would still be a great line. Hell, early this year when we had Kunitz - Sid - Dupuis and ____ - Geno - Neal, I wish we would have thrown Kunitz down and let the spare parts rotate with Sid instead.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,543
22,061
Pittsburgh
I hope Jiggy can/will back me up on this, but:

The Iginla you're seeing now is NOT Iginla. And I'm not saying this as a person who is unwilling to believe a former star and future HoFer is declining, I'm saying this as someone who watched him a lot JUST THIS SEASON. He wasn't this slow with Calgary. I guarantee you that 100% of his "slowness" is related to "thinking-itis." The best, most-sure way to slow down an athlete is to get them to think. He's not just playing, and it's causing him problems. Part of that is Geno, part of that is scheme, part of that is position. This is the biggest problem with the shortened season. I do think he'd be better with Sid than Geno.

I absolutely agree. Tell him his job is simple. Go back to RW, find open shooting positions, and help cycle the puck. Play the game just as simply as you did with Olli Jokinen as your center. Just be ready for passes at all times.
 

Snapshotgoal

Registered User
Feb 17, 2013
387
0
Tampa FL
Remember I said it here first.

4-1 win for the Pens tomorrow.

We have seen this story too. All credit to the Isles, they have played a brilliant game and worked circles around the Pens' players. But in the end they just aren't that great a team. How in the world do you give up almost 5 goals a game (4.77)? The Pens have been in this position before, a few times, where they can put the heel of their boot on the neck of a team, and almost always have responded. And if going down 2-0 in the last game was not a wake up call that they were going to under perform and go one and done again, nothing will be. I expect to see a different Pens team finally show up tomorrow.

And conversely the Isle's have been flying on emotion, they are due for a letdown, and for the first time expectation pressures are on that young team. They came back from late 2 goal deficits twice now. That can not keep up forever either. And despite doing the best I think that team is capable of, and the Pens playing some of their worst hockey of the year, they still are down 2-1.

Mark my words, 4-1 Pens. And remember you heard it here first.

The Islanders won't lose tomorrow. The Islanders have been playing like this all year. I think it's going to a blowout victory. Isles 6 Pens 1
 

IcedCapp

Registered User
Aug 7, 2009
35,933
11,544
The Islanders won't lose tomorrow. The Islanders have been playing like this all year. I think it's going to a blowout victory. Isles 6 Pens 1

I agree. Penguins don't stand a chance. I'd prefer they not even take the ice, save their energy for game 5, hope they can claw their way to a win then.
 
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