Post-Game Talk: #43 | FLYERS 5 at Devils 3 | Sat., Jan. 13, 2018

[Curufinwe]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/sean-couturier-over-under-40-points.2387597/

Time to talk about our "defensive 3rd liner center" again.

That thread is only four months old.

 

[kudymen]

So they were not right enough for you? Then what does that make you, like really really really wrong?

Quoting for awesomeness.

 

[Foggy14]

His ice time isn't going down or up, it's staying right around 12 minutes.

He got 8:59 against New Jersey, with no special teams time. Of course, one game isn't really the issue.

Among all rookie forwards, Patrick's average of 12:00 minutes TOI/GP ranks 43rd in the League.

His power play time is somewhat better, but it's still 21st on a per game basis.

He's gotten virtually no PK time (21 seconds, total).

And all this on a mediocre team that has given time to older, mediocre players who, unlike Patrick, have nothing left to learn.

In my view, Hakstol is "developing" Patrick as though it's the pre-cap era. Burning an ELC year to play less than 42 other rookie forwards makes little sense. If Hak wasn't ready (for whatever reason) to let Patrick average at least 15 minutes a game (top 15 rookie forwards) Hextall might as well have sent him back to Brandon where he could play a ton, fully recover from the off-season surgery and save an ELC year for when he's 22.

 

[Hiesenberg]

He got 8:59 against New Jersey, with no special teams time. Of course, one game isn't really the issue.

Among all rookie forwards, Patrick's average of 12:00 minutes TOI/GP ranks 43rd in the League.

His power play time is somewhat better, but it's still 21st on a per game basis.

He's gotten virtually no PK time (21 seconds, total).

And all this on a mediocre team that has given time to older, mediocre players who, unlike Patrick, have nothing left to learn.

In my view, Hakstol is "developing" Patrick as though it's the pre-cap era. Burning an ELC year to play less than 42 other rookie forwards makes little sense. If Hak wasn't ready (for whatever reason) to let Patrick average at least 15 minutes a game (top 15 rookie forwards) Hextall might as well have sent him back to Brandon where he could play a ton, fully recover from the off-season surgery and save an ELC year for when he's 22.

For the better part of the year. Patrick was the 4th best C on this team. He's still arguably the 3rd best. Not sure how many minutes you want a 3rd line C to get.

 

[Foggy14]

For the better part of the year. Patrick was the 4th best C on this team. He's still arguably the 3rd best. Not sure how many minutes you want a 3rd line C to get.

I want him playing a lot more than the 43rd rookie forward in the League. Otherwise we're misusing a really valuable asset; an ELC season of a top prospect.

 

[Hiesenberg]

I want him playing a lot more than the 43rd rookie forward in the League. Otherwise we're misusing a really valuable asset; an ELC season of a top prospect.

Yea me too, but I'm not going to pretend that we should be playing Patrick 16 minutes a night, because up until about the Xmas break, Patrick was awful.

 

[Tripod]

Couturier is having an amazing year. a year that no one on record had ever thought he could have.


When he was criticized for his offense, not just by me, it was done for good reason.

Same here with Nolan Patrick. He is the guy I wanted, I think he will be a great center. Right now he sucks. It is ok to comment on a players current level of play. Stop harassing me and other posters for pointing out facts.

This is funny.

He was criticized for his offense by a few dense people who only would look at his season end total and ignored his PPG the last few years and that he was producing as a top 6 player at ES.

You chose to hang your hat on the "elite defensive 3rd line C" Couturier. You were wrong. Now that is pointing out facts.

 

[deadhead]

For the better part of the year. Patrick was the 4th best C on this team. He's still arguably the 3rd best. Not sure how many minutes you want a 3rd line C to get.

Or how hard you want to ride a potentially elite center when he's still recovering from surgery and isn't close to 100% (and lacks core strength because he hasn't been able to work out intensively for two years).

 

[Striiker]

Can I get a quote where someone said they want to "ride" Patrick, meaning play him a ton?

If it exists, I haven't seen it.

What I've seen is people saying to swap Raffl and Voracek to his line so they have someone with offensive ability as their C and he has wingers who look like they've played hockey before.

f*** it, toss Laughton in there if Patrick can't. Either of them is a significant upgrade on Filppula, who really has no defining characteristic right now other than being a line killer. For someone who is so obsessed with passing, he sure sucks at it.

Want to get points out of Filppula without killing Voracek? Keep him off the ice until the opponent pulls the goalie.

 

[The Rage Kage]

Maybe jtowns attacks last week weren't as unjustified as I thought

 

[GirouxGiroux]

He got 8:59 against New Jersey, with no special teams time. Of course, one game isn't really the issue.

Among all rookie forwards, Patrick's average of 12:00 minutes TOI/GP ranks 43rd in the League.

His power play time is somewhat better, but it's still 21st on a per game basis.

He's gotten virtually no PK time (21 seconds, total).

Henrik Sedin didn't average 15 min/game until his fifth season in the NHL. Henrik was also a year older than Nolan as a rookie. The moron coach that chose to f*** up his development like that was Marc Crawford.

This isn't a video game. You don't give a player X amount of minutes and get X amount of development as a result. This season is not stunting Patrick's growth. I think it's bizarre to think playing 12 min/game in the NHL is somehow a waste. Patrick is 19. At least half of those other rookies are a full year older than him or more. Giroux was still in the Q at this point, and would be there another full season. But we're going to complain Patrick isn't getting enough NHL minutes?

The obsession with this stuff is crazy.

 

[Magua]

I'm getting roasted so hard lately. Jtown, Deadhead, and MR28. Plus, Magua is just generally a hurtful person.

FeelsBadMan

Aaaaaaand Tripod.

Maybe jtowns attacks last week werwnt as unjustified as I thought

Aaaaaaaand Rage Kage.

 

[Striiker]

Aaaaaaaand Rage Kage.

Soon it'll be quicker to list the people who haven't participated in the roast.

 

[macleish1974]

Hex and Hak are really tightening down the bolts and screws. The torque wrench must be at 500 lbs. It does not matter at this moment in time, whether Patrick has 10 minutes or 20 minutes. Does not matter whether Goulbourne has 2 minutes or 5 minutes or 10 minutes playing time. Does not matter whether Lehtera has 2 minutes or 20 minutes. The team is now constructed to win games and make the playoffs. That is the mandate. The really good news: Dale Weise is not playing. And until the wheels fall off this is our team until further notice.

 

[The Rage Kage]

Hex and Hak are really tightening down the bolts and screws. The torque wrench must be at 500 lbs. It does not matter at this moment in time, whether Patrick has 10 minutes or 20 minutes. Does not matter whether Goulbourne has 2 minutes or 5 minutes or 10 minutes playing time. Does not matter whether Lehtera has 2 minutes or 20 minutes. The team is now constructed to win games and make the playoffs. That is the mandate. The really good news: Dale Weise is not playing. And until the wheels fall off this is our team until further notice.

Our worst center is getting the close to the most 5v5 time and playing with two of our best possesion players. Our 2nd best left winger is playing in the AHL. Lehtera is still playing. Ghoul was brought up because he hits and apparently kills penalties, he hasnt done any of that in his total 15 minutes of icetime since being called up. That is just the forwards. You say this team has been constructed to make the playoffs, if thats true they have done a terrible job. The only reason they are even sniffing the playoffs is because Giroux, Couts, Voracek, and Ghost are playing out of their minds. Nothing Hexy or Hakstol have done has made it any easier.

 

[GirouxGiroux]

The only reason they are even sniffing the playoffs is because Giroux, Couts, Voracek, and Ghost are playing out of their minds.

True. They've really flourished in Hak's system.

 

[Striiker]

Hex and Hak are really tightening down the bolts and screws. The torque wrench must be at 500 lbs. It does not matter at this moment in time, whether Patrick has 10 minutes or 20 minutes. Does not matter whether Goulbourne has 2 minutes or 5 minutes or 10 minutes playing time. Does not matter whether Lehtera has 2 minutes or 20 minutes. The team is now constructed to win games and make the playoffs. That is the mandate. The really good news: Dale Weise is not playing. And until the wheels fall off this is our team until further notice.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... what?

All of those things matter very very much if the goal is to win games.

 

[Foggy14]

Henrik Sedin didn't average 15 min/game until his fifth season in the NHL. Henrik was also a year older than Nolan as a rookie. The moron coach that chose to **** up his development like that was Marc Crawford.

This isn't a video game. You don't give a player X amount of minutes and get X amount of development as a result. This season is not stunting Patrick's growth. I think it's bizarre to think playing 12 min/game in the NHL is somehow a waste. Patrick is 19. At least half of those other rookies are a full year older than him or more. Giroux was still in the Q at this point, and would be there another full season. But we're going to complain Patrick isn't getting enough NHL minutes?

The obsession with this stuff is crazy.

GG, you're helping make my case.

When Sedin was a rookie there was no salary cap and no entry level contracts. Also, he played more as a rookie than Patrick, and was 25 spots higher on the list of rookie forwards (TOI/GP).

It may seem like an obsession, but in the cap era successful teams are usually getting a lot of value out of ELC contracts. Which would you rather have, Patrick's current 19 year old season on an ELC where he's 43rd in rookie time-on-ice, or an ELC season when he's age 22? You can't have both.

Of course the decision has been made by our "brain trust." We're burning that ELC season now. In my opinion, the combination of Patrick's injury recovery and our coach's "approach" to the utilization of (some) young players has made that decision open to reasonable question.

 

[GirouxGiroux]

Which would you rather have, Patrick's current 19 year old season on an ELC where he's 43rd in rookie time-on-ice, or an ELC season when he's age 22?

I'd rather have whatever helps him become a better player, and I don't think he'd be better off just dominating down in juniors. I think you're overstating the importance of him signing a new contract one year earlier.

Also, if you're purely concerned with the economics of it, his next contract probably goes up slightly if it's signed a year later. I think that's a pretty fair assumption, especially if he turns out to be as good as we hope. So it could ultimately be saving them money.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Patrick hasn’t been an NHL caliber center in 90% of the games he’s played.

I think they are handling him well.

He’s going to be good. Eventually. It’s not now. Right now he’s a 4C who you give PP2 time. He’s terrible. He’ll improve. But he’s no answer to the 2C hole this season.

 

[The Rage Kage]

Patrick hasn’t been an NHL caliber center in 90% of the games he’s played.

I think they are handling him well.

He’s going to be good. Eventually. It’s not now. Right now he’s a 4C who you give PP2 time. He’s terrible. He’ll improve. But he’s no answer to the 2C hole this season.

Thats simply not true. He sure hasnt been the best, but apart from maybe 5 games (10 if being harsh) he has been NHL caliber. Hes also been getting better as the year goes on.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Thats simply not true. He sure hasnt been the best, but apart from maybe 5 games (10 if being harsh) he has been NHL caliber. Hes also been getting better as the year goes on.

I respectfully disagree. His Corsi — and I take Corsi with a large grain of salt — was about league worst, not to mention his being behind the play constantly. He will be good. But he isn’t now.

 

[deadhead]

It may seem like an obsession, but in the cap era successful teams are usually getting a lot of value out of ELC contracts. Which would you rather have, Patrick's current 19 year old season on an ELC where he's 43rd in rookie time-on-ice, or an ELC season when he's age 22? You can't have both.
.

Outside of 1st rd picks (and Provorov and Konecny skipped one junior season, Patrick two), most "rookies" play at least one AHL season before they get to the NHL, many 2 or more (or the equivalent in college or SHL/KHL seasons). Teams playing a lot of rookies are playing mostly 22-24 year old rookies.

Next year the Flyers will have half their team 24 years old or younger:
Patrick (20), Konecny (22), Laughton (24), Lindblom (22), NAK (22), Frost (19)
Provorov (21), Sanheim (22), Morin (23), Myers (21), Hagg (23)
and Couts, Ghost and Weal will be 26.

That's not young enough for you?

 

[The Rage Kage]

Outside of 1st rd picks (and Provorov and Konecny skipped one junior season, Patrick two), most "rookies" play at least one AHL season before they get to the NHL, many 2 or more (or the equivalent in college or SHL/KHL seasons). Teams playing a lot of rookies are playing mostly 22-24 year old rookies.

Next year the Flyers will have half their team 24 years old or younger:
Patrick (20), Konecny (22), Laughton (24), Lindblom (22), NAK (22), Frost (19)
Provorov (21), Sanheim (22), Morin (23), Myers (21), Hagg (23)
and Couts, Ghost and Weal will be 26.

That's not young enough for you?

I appreciate your positivity for the future, but I don't see any way that all four of Hagg, Sanheim, Myers, and Morin are on the team next year.

 

[Foggy14]

That's not young enough for you?

The point concerned the management of Patrick's ELC and his development, not whether the team is "young enough."

If you want to argue, fine. But at least try to argue with something I said.