Post-Game Talk: #41 | Blues 3 at FLYERS 6 | Sat., Jan. 6, 2018, 1:00 pm ET

[GapToothedWonder]

I don’t know why you feel the need to get so *****y about it. I explained why I thought he has value. Most games don’t involve 3 & 4 goal leads. Plus it was his first NHL game. At least he brings something to the table, unlike Lehtera, Weise, & Leier. And even though he didn’t play much, he directly led to the first goal & great start.

Contradicts everybody, whines when people "get shitty" about his opinion with their own opinions.

Extra irony/hilarity that the opinion is about bravery and toughness being important.

 

[whitstifier]

Hope Giroux gets to 28 goals for the 3rd time in his career

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Flyguy seemed to be the one whining about my difference of opinion. Saying he’d bookmark the post for later & then took a shot at my usual draft preferences. (Btw, I loved the Rinaldo pick, & I’d have loved the Goulborne pick if it weren’t Round 3.) It was a valid point — I seriously don’t know why he was so offended to make his snide comment.

 

[mja]

It’s clear the team got lambasted after getting physically owned & embarrassed by PIT, & the Goulborne call up was a message that has certainly been received so far. And if you think the players weren’t happy about the call up, I think you’re wrong.

Like I said, Keith Jones has said that when you look around the locker room or bench, “it matters” seeing guys with toughness who will have your back. It lets your team feel more confident playing hard & aggressive. But what would Jones know?

I have nothing against Goul, and only a slight bit against him getting called up right now. I'm hopeful he can be a useful contributor as a 12th/13th forward.

But you're even crazier than I thought if you think Goul getting called up sent some kind of message that sparked the Flyers to victory these last two games, games in which he played a grand total of 5 minutes and 23 seconds.

 

[Rebels57]

He only played 5 minutes. They'd be better off dressing 7 Dmen. Not that I would wanna see Hak manage that, but...

Remember when Hak used Lehtera on the PK over him? Lol

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I have nothing against Goul, and only a slight bit against him getting called up right now. I'm hopeful he can be a useful contributor as a 12th/13th forward.

But you're even crazier than I thought if you think Goul getting called up sent some kind of message that sparked the Flyers to victory these last two games, games in which he played a grand total of 5 minutes and 23 seconds.

Keith Jones & Chris Therien certainly agreed. I know you just think they’re mouthpieces, but sometimes they actually do offer insight, & they both had long NHL careers.

BTW, those saying I’m being “contrarian,” most of the posts in this thread before mine actually seemed to agree with me. Then the usual suspects came in to disagree. I’d say they’re the ones being “contrarian” here. In reality, there’s just a herd of posters who take offense if someone expresses an opinion they don’t share. Classic groupthink.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Flyguy seemed to be the one whining about my difference of opinion. Saying he’d bookmark the post for later & then took a shot at my usual draft preferences. (Btw, I loved the Rinaldo pick, & I’d have loved the Goulborne pick if it weren’t Round 3.) It was a valid point — I seriously don’t know why he was so offended to make his snide comment.

It sure doesn't come across that way.

 

[mja]

Keith Jones & Chris Therien certainly agreed. I know you just think they’re mouthpieces,

How do you "know" that, exactly?

but sometimes they actually do offer insight, & they both had long NHL careers.

Appeal to authority.

BTW, those saying I’m being “contrarian,” most of the posts in this thread before mine actually seemed to agree with me. Then the usual suspects came in to disagree. I’d say they’re the ones being “contrarian” here. In reality, there’s just a herd of posters who take offense if someone expresses an opinion they don’t share. Classic groupthink.

Alternate theory: there's a lot of people who just object whens someone says something stupid or crazy or both.

 

[Random Forest]

Keith Jones has talked before about how having guys like Goulborne in the lineup “matters.”

Oh, well if Keith Jones said it, then...

 

[FLYguy3911]

Flyguy seemed to be the one whining about my difference of opinion. Saying he’d bookmark the post for later & then took a shot at my usual draft preferences. (Btw, I loved the Rinaldo pick, & I’d have loved the Goulborne pick if it weren’t Round 3.) It was a valid point — I seriously don’t know why he was so offended to make his snide comment.

Offended? You don't see the parallels here?

Every June you complain that the Flyers don't take enough skill guys and here you are praising the play of Tyrell Goulbourne and previously Robert Hagg and the positive impact they have on the team. It doesn't make sense to me, but if you truly believe that, I just said I'll be sure to remind you of your viewpoint if/when you want to criticize the organization for not drafting skill guys.

Btw is loving the Rinaldo pick supposed to be a good thing? If picking Goulbourne the player was the right decision, what round do you draw the line?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

For every step this team takes it often takes one or more back. Rinse & repeat for long enough now. I’m going to guess this narrative will be put on the shelf once the Flyers inevitably go to their take a step back phase.

 

[Random Forest]

For the record, I think Keith Jones is a generally good analyst and that the hand wringing about Goulbourne has always been a bit excessive, but "Keith Jones said it" is not an argument. That's not how logically coherent arguments work.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

And if you think the players weren’t happy about the call up, I think you’re wrong.

One of the last opinions I would want would be a current player's. It's not their job to manage the roster. They shouldn't be expected to be proficient, nor to remain objective.

 

[Peacekeeper]

The game the news Ghoul was called up we had three fights (won all) and played more physical and with more intensity than we have all season.

Game two sparks our first goal and we looked physical and in the game again

Sure you might not think he's a good player and yada yada, but I'm not sure you understand roles and the ripple effect a high energy/tough sob has on your team.

If he can play low minutes, maybe learn to PK, his speed and toughness is valuable. The way he held his own in front of the net screening the goalie is all he has to do while our more skilled 4th handle the puck. Ended up with the blues committing a penalty

 

[Ghosts Beer]

So Jones & Therien have no extra insight into NHL locker rooms & psychology?

Completely dismissing their analysis as an “appeal to authority” is BS.

I guess next time you’re sick there’s no need to take advice from a doctor because it’s “an appeal to authority.” If you ever have a legal situation, I guess you should disregard an attorney ‘s input, because it would be an “appeal to authority.”

Appeal to authority is a buzzword people have caught onto without understanding its full meaning.

I’m not saying Jones & Therien MUST be right; I’m saying their opinions on NHL locker rooms & benches should at least be considered seriously given their experience in them.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Offended? You don't see the parallels here?

Every June you complain that the Flyers don't take enough skill guys and here you are praising the play of Tyrell Goulbourne and previously Robert Hagg and the positive impact they have on the team. It doesn't make sense to me, but if you truly believe that, I just said I'll be sure to remind you of your viewpoint if/when you want to criticize the organization for not drafting skill guys.

Btw is loving the Rinaldo pick supposed to be a good thing? If picking Goulbourne the player was the right decision, what round do you draw the line?

Maybe “snide” is the better term. I didn’t see the reason for that type of reaction.

As for the draft, it depends on the player & who else is out there.

For example, I wanted Max Jones in the first round, and he wasn’t a ppg player.

I didn’t understand the Frost pick at first, then I watched more video of him right after the draft & loved the pick. He wasn’t a PPG.

Now Goulborne, I simply don’t like taking a guy with limited upside in the 3rd round. I would’ve been fine with it in the 5th depending on who else was available, or, even better,6th or 7th. That said, I generally prefer swinging for the fences on less-scouted European players beginning in Round 4.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

So Jones & Therien have no extra insight into NHL locker rooms & psychology?

Completely dismissing their analysis as an “appeal to authority” is BS.

I guess next time you’re sick there’s no need to take advice from a doctor because it’s “an appeal to authority.” If you ever have a legal situation, I guess you should disregard an attorney ‘s input, because it would be an “appeal to authority.”

Appeal to authority is a buzzword people have caught onto without understanding its full meaning.

I’m not saying Jones & Therien MUST be right; I’m saying their opinions on NHL locker rooms & benches should at least be considered seriously given their experience in them.

You're talking about trained professionals who put in years of serious study and hard work. While hockey players are dilligent, skilled workers, they're generally chosen to move up the ranks for their abilities on the ice. That comparison really doesn't work at all.

The bigger issue is that they can only relate how the locker rooms they personally have been in work. That's such a tiny slice of the pie. Plus the game has changed quite a bit since Jones retired. We're pushing up against 20 years now. Many of the ways it's changed go perpendicular to the issue Goulborne addresses.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You're talking about trained professionals who put in years of serious study and hard work. While hockey players are dilligent, skilled workers, they're generally chosen to move up the ranks for their abilities on the ice. That comparison really doesn't work at all.

The bigger issue is that they can only relate how the locker rooms they personally have been in work. That's such a tiny slice of the pie. Plus the game has changed quite a bit since Jones retired. We're pushing up against 20 years now. Many of the ways it's changed go perpendicular to the issue Goulborne addresses.

I think you’re being overly dismissive of the insight Jones & Therien can provide about NHL locker rooms & players/organizations’ thought processes. They also have pretty close, regular access to the Flyers & their players, so I’m sure they have a decent sense of the current environment. Again, not saying they have to be right. But I don’t think their take, which they agreed on, should be tossed aside in the manner so many are doing.

And given the timing of the call up, right after getting embarrassed by Pittsburgh, & that no one had Goul on the radar as the next call up & he was an ECHLer for half of last season, I tend to agree Hextall was sending a message with the move. Like someone else said above, the next game they had 3 fights & were far more physical & aggressive. I don’t think it was a coincidence; & I think it was probably part of Hextall going ballistic behind closed doors.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

It’s clear the team got lambasted after getting physically owned & embarrassed by PIT, & the Goulborne call up was a message that has certainly been received so far. And if you think the players weren’t happy about the call up, I think you’re wrong.

Like I said, Keith Jones has said that when you look around the locker room or bench, “it matters” seeing guys with toughness who will have your back. It lets your team feel more confident playing hard & aggressive. But what would Jones know?

well, I also think to a man they were embarrassed in the Pittsburgh game. Maybe they needed get their asses kicked to get them playing the right way. Sure there are some things they need to clean up but the last 2 games were a pretty good overall response to that game. I think that was more of a factor then anything. IMO

 

[deadhead]

Goul actually played under control, I think his minutes were limited b/c he really hasn't had a chance to practice with the team and was probably "winging it." Not that he's going to get more than 10 minutes with the team on the 4th line, and is unlikely to PK for a while.

He's fast, physical and likes to hit, and hits cleanly. Yes, that does fire up a team, and the fact he'll fight anyone provides protection for an undersized team that has been rag dolled at times. If Leier gets back on that line he can be more aggressive knowing his back is covered.

In many ways Goul is what we wished Rinaldo was, a pain in the ass ball of fire who intimidates people, without the stupid psycho penalties that hurt the team.

No, he's not going to carry this team, but he can be a spark plug when needed.

 

[explosive skating]

Only two pages after this kind of performance ? WTF

 

[RANKKA]

Only two pages after this kind of performance ? WTF

most of it is in GDT, this came late

 

[tucson83]

You're talking about trained professionals who put in years of serious study and hard work. While hockey players are dilligent, skilled workers, they're generally chosen to move up the ranks for their abilities on the ice. That comparison really doesn't work at all.

The bigger issue is that they can only relate how the locker rooms they personally have been in work. That's such a tiny slice of the pie. Plus the game has changed quite a bit since Jones retired. We're pushing up against 20 years now. Many of the ways it's changed go perpendicular to the issue Goulborne addresses.

jones, clement, they are still living the days of they need enforcers to win games and not talent which is not the way it is now. they need talent all over the roster to win, they just dont have it and the goalies we are playing against are crap, they are ones we play against that are good and stopping pucks, we will turn back to our losing ways. that's what a bad team is inconsistent.

 

[Breeze 44]

soooo......... The Flyers looked good right..
Going to have sit Elliot soon for a game don't you think??
Couts... crazy huh....

 

[mja]

So Jones & Therien have no extra insight into NHL locker rooms & psychology?

Completely dismissing their analysis as an “appeal to authority” is BS.

It's clearly an appeal to authority, which, by the way, there's nothing inherently wrong with, it's just that in this instance you're doing a particularly shitty job of it. You can't go around making shitty eye-roll-inducing arguments and then cite Keith Jones' bland pronouncements on a telecast (btw, your argument goes way beyond anything Jones said) along with some post hoc ergo propter hoc as your only real evidence. What happens when inevitably the Flyers play their next uninspired game? Did the Goul effect mysteriously wear off?

And who's completely dismissing it, anyway? I'm not. I'm perfectly comfortable with the notion that former players have insights about being a hockey player that I don't have. That said, that doesn't mean I blindly accept whatever they say, either. I've been watching hockey for over 3 decades. I'd like to think I've gleaned some knowledge in all of that time.

I've literally watched dozens of plugs skate for the Flyers who were there to bring "toughness". All of them had their presence on the roster justified in the same way you're justifying Goul's. Far too many of them proved to be a waste of a roster spot. Which isn't to say that none of them have been useful players, or that Goul won't be useful, but the idea that somehow Goul is going to be the difference between the entire team playing better and braver, as you put it, or not, is ridiculous on it's face.

I guess next time you’re sick there’s no need to take advice from a doctor because it’s “an appeal to authority.” If you ever have a legal situation, I guess you should disregard an attorney ‘s input, because it would be an “appeal to authority.”

Strawman. Are you planning on running through every conceivable fallacy in this thread?

Appeal to authority is a buzzword people have caught onto without understanding its full meaning.

Argumentum ad verecundiam. Is it still a buzzword if I use the Latin?

I’m not saying Jones & Therien MUST be right; I’m saying their opinions on NHL locker rooms & benches should at least be considered seriously given their experience in them.

After considering their opinions seriously, I'm going to hold fast to my opinion that the team's better play in the last 2 games has literally not a damned thing to do with Goul's call-up.