Post-Game Talk: #41 | Blues 3 at FLYERS 6 | Sat., Jan. 6, 2018, 1:00 pm ET

[Ghosts Beer]

It's clearly an appeal to authority, which, by the way, there's nothing inherently wrong with, it's just that in this instance you're doing a particularly ****ty job of it. You can't go around making ****ty eye-roll-inducing arguments and then cite Keith Jones' bland pronouncements on a telecast (btw, your argument goes way beyond anything Jones said) along with some post hoc ergo propter hoc as your only real evidence. What happens when inevitably the Flyers play their next uninspired game? Did the Goul effect mysteriously wear off?

And who's completely dismissing it, anyway? I'm not. I'm perfectly comfortable with the notion that former players have insights about being a hockey player that I don't have. That said, that doesn't mean I blindly accept whatever they say, either. I've been watching hockey for over 3 decades. I'd like to think I've gleaned some knowledge in all of that time.

I've literally watched dozens of plugs skate for the Flyers who were there to bring "toughness". All of them had their presence on the roster justified in the same way you're justifying Goul's. Far too many of them proved to be a waste of a roster spot. Which isn't to say that none of them have been useful players, or that Goul won't be useful, but the idea that somehow Goul is going to be the difference between the entire team playing better and braver, as you put it, or not, is ridiculous on it's face.



Strawman. Are you planning on running through every conceivable fallacy in this thread?



Argumentum ad verecundiam. Is it still a buzzword if I use the Latin?



After considering their opinions seriously, I'm going to hold fast to my opinion that the team's better play in the last 2 games has literally not a damned thing to do with Goul's call-up.

You sure used “appeal to authority” as if there were something inherently wrong with it.

And now you’re committing a logical fallacy by dismissing my point as “shitty” simply because you disagree with it.

BTW, the point about lawyers & doctors was an analogy, not a “strawman.”

Also, I’m not arguing that Goul’s presence will last forever, or that the Flyers won’t have lousy games with him in the lineup. Edmonton had lousy games with Semenko. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a positive impact overall. Goul could get sent down next week, but I think Goul’s call up was part of a message to the team that they had lost their Flyers identity. A message that so far has been well received & kickstarted them to 2 of their best & most physical games of the year after the Pittsburgh embarrassment. Maybe it will be a short-lived wake-up call. But it was needed for a foundering team with no edge.

Saying the call-up “has literally not a damned thing” to do with their performance the last two games is overly dismissive & naive, IMO. I think you just don’t like Goulbourne-type players. And sure you need talent. But are you really missing anything with Lehtera, Weise, or Leier out of the lineup? And if someone else helps give your team its aggressiveness & identity back, isn’t he the better option than those bland, do-nothing players? At least short term?

 

[tucson83]

You sure used “appeal to authority” as if there were something inherently wrong with it.

And now you’re committing a logical fallacy by dismissing my point as “****ty” simply because you disagree with it.

BTW, the point about lawyers & doctors was an analogy, not a “strawman.”

Also, I’m not arguing that Goul’s presence will last forever, or that the Flyers won’t have lousy games with him in the lineup. Edmonton had lousy games with Semenko. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a positive impact overall. Goul could get sent down next week, but I think Goul’s call up was part of a message to the team that they had lost their Flyers identity. A message that so far has been well received & kickstarted them to 2 of their best & most physical games of the year after the Pittsburgh embarrassment. Maybe it will be a short-lived wake-up call. But it was needed for a foundering team with no edge.

Saying the call-up “has literally not a damned thing” to do with their performance the last two games is overly dismissive & naive, IMO. I think you just don’t like Goulbourne-type players. And sure you need talent. But are you really missing anything with Lehtera, Weise, or Leier out of the lineup? And if someone else helps give your team its aggressiveness & identity back, isn’t he the better option than those bland, do-nothing players? At least short term?

it's not going to fix the major problems with this team is that they dont have a complete roster and you have a coach that's putting players out of their roles, it's not a recipe for success plus you are riding elliot for more 10 games even if they make the playoffs elliot could be out of gas and they wont get past the first round and not playing the backup, that's not good either. if you believe this team is a cup contender, you are being unrealistic.

they are so many problems with this team, they are just not good enough and they dont have the coaching either.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

it's not going to fix the major problems with this team is that they dont have a complete roster and you have a coach that's putting players out of their roles, it's not a recipe for success plus you are riding elliot for more 10 games even if they make the playoffs elliot could be out of gas and they wont get past the first round and not playing the backup, that's not good either. if you believe this team is a cup contender, you are being unrealistic.

they are so many problems with this team, they are just not good enough and they dont have the coaching either.

Where on Earth did I say this team is a Cup contender? Now that’s a strawman. Never said they weren’t still very flawed, either.

All I said was they had lost their Flyers identity, & the Goul call up was part of a message delivered by Hextall that it wouldn’t be tolerated & they had to get their identity back. Calling up the toughest player in your system, who no one expected to get called up, tends to hammer home that message that the Flyers aren’t going to be pushovers. He very well may go back down soon, but they needed that jolt to reinforce the message. And I think saying the call up had absolutely nothing to do with their more aggressive, harder to play against, motivated performances the last two games is wrong. We’ll see how long the effect lasts.

 

[mja]

You sure used “appeal to authority” as if there were something inherently wrong with it.

And now you’re committing a logical fallacy by dismissing my point as “****ty” simply because you disagree with it.

I'm calling it shitty because it's shitty, and the only thing you're backing it up with is a weak appeal to authority (and the authority in this case isn't even saying the same thing you're saying) and a particularly weak bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

BTW, the point about lawyers & doctors was an analogy, not a “strawman.”

Your analogy sucks ass. If you can't see the difference between this, and say, going to a doctor for medical expertise when you're sick, then I can't help you. I mean, there are plenty of shitty coaches, GMs, and broadcasters that were former players.

Also, I’m not arguing that Goul’s presence will last forever, or that the Flyers won’t have lousy games with him in the lineup. Edmonton had lousy games with Semenko. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a positive impact overall. Goul could get sent down next week, but I think Goul’s call up was part of a message to the team that they had lost their Flyers identity. A message that so far has been well received & kickstarted them to 2 of their best & most physical games of the year after the Pittsburgh embarrassment. Maybe it will be a short-lived wake-up call. But it was needed for a foundering team with no edge.

Saying the call-up “has literally not a damned thing” to do with their performance the last two games is overly dismissive & naive, IMO.

Yes, it was f***ing Dave Semenko who really made those Oiler teams click. And it was Goul's mere presence in the locker room and 5 minutes of relatively uneventful icetime that inspired Giroux to score 5 points in the last two games.

I think you just don’t like Goulbourne-type players. And sure you need talent. But are you really missing anything with Lehtera, Weise, or Leier out of the lineup? And if someone else helps give your team its aggressiveness & identity back, isn’t he the better option than those bland, do-nothing players? At least short term?

Man, you make so many assumptions. I have nothing against Goul at all. Think he might be able to be a positive contributor to the club in a 12th/13th forward role. I just have a problem with you arguing that he somehow inspired the team to play better the last 2 games in 5 minutes of f***ing ice-time.

 

[pit]

People who are griping about Goul are doing so in part because we have been told by the team that places are earned based on play. By what we observe night in and night out are players on this team who should not be holding a roster spot (Lehtera/Weise) while players who have been playing their guts out in the AHL (Lindblom/Martel/NAK) don't get recalled. So when you leave that dead weight on roster, fail to recall those who have earned it and then call up a player lower on the depth chart, there is going to be grousing above and beyond the merits of the player.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I'm calling it ****ty because it's ****ty, and the only thing you're backing it up with is a weak appeal to authority (and the authority in this case isn't even saying the same thing you're saying) and a particularly weak bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc.



Your analogy sucks ass. If you can't see the difference between this, and say, going to a doctor for medical expertise when you're sick, then I can't help you. I mean, there are plenty of ****ty coaches, GMs, and broadcasters that were former players.



Yes, it was ****ing Dave Semenko who really made those Oiler teams click. And it was Goul's mere presence in the locker room and 5 minutes of relatively uneventful icetime that inspired Giroux to score 5 points in the last two games.



Man, you make so many assumptions. I have nothing against Goul at all. Think he might be able to be a positive contributor to the club in a 12th/13th forward role. I just have a problem with you arguing that he somehow inspired the team to play better the last 2 games in 5 minutes of ****ing ice-time.

You mock my Jones & Therien references as “shitty” & weak:What do you have backing your opinion other than you think your opinion is better than mine? A few posters? I have posters who share my opinion, too.

And you want to talk about a Strawman, it’s you acting like my argument was that it was Semenko who “really made those Oilers teams click.” Disingenuous portrayal. All I said was his role was overall a positive one even though the Oilers still had some lousy games.

And with Goul it wasn’t about what he did with his with his minimal TOI, though he did well, setting a physical tone right away & leading to the first goal. It’s that Hextall was hammering home his message that the team had to regain its physical identity. Like I said above, calling up your system’s toughest player reinforces the point. If you think that has “literally nothing” to do with their improved aggressiveness & performance, & can’t even acknowledge it may be a slight reason, I think you’re being naive.

 

[deadhead]

How do you earn anything in 30 AHL games? That's not exactly paying "dues."
Martel got called up, skated fast, put up awful Corsi b/c you could breathe on him and knock him off the puck.
Lindblom started slow, has now heated up, and I expect him in Philly by the end of the month.
NAK was meh last year, playing much better this year, once Hextall is convinced that's not a fluke, he'll be up.
MV will get a cameo at some point

 

[Tripod]

We have given up 12 goals against the last 3 games....and scored 13. That's what has made up exciting.

 

[hatcher]

The team had completely lost its identity. They’ve gained it back following his call-up & the message it sent (which I’m sure was accompanied by a lashing out from Hextall/Hakstol after the Pittsburgh game about not playing like the Flyers & getting shoved around).

Keith Jones has talked before about how having guys like Goulborne in the lineup “matters.”

If you played hockey you would knows what that means. Lots of posters don't have a clue. Ghoul is so much better as a player and for the team and hopefully nobody ducks with that.

 

[kudymen]

I thought last GDT was top but goddamnit this PGT takes the cake too.

 

[pacehimself]

I had to skip through the bickering back and forth but I am happy they want to play tougher hockey. Not advocating for or against gouls call up, but it sent a message. I have been complaining throughout the season that this team lacked team toughness and fire. They would get pushed around and looked absolutely out of wack because of it. Calling him up sent a message that they need to step there game up and not get pushed around. I don’t mind the call up, it’s not like he is going to play big minutes and is replacing another “blah” player. This isn’t the season they are going “all in”, so if they feel other players in the ahl would benefit from a full season in the ahl then so be it. There will be more call ups towards the end of the season and others will get a shot

 

[pit]

How do you earn anything in 30 AHL games? That's not exactly paying "dues."

I'm just impressed that the Flyers spent draft picks on players who had never laced them up prior to playing for the Phantoms this season.