Post-Game Talk: #39 | Penguins 5 at FLYERS 1 | Tue., Jan. 2, 2018, 7:00 pm ET

[Beef Invictus]

Since when?

If a player is physically overwhelmed at the NHL level, as Leier appears to be at times, he's a liability

You should examine Rinaldo's career.


Goul's upside isn't much different.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Oh man. Give it a rest.

Dude must be the worst +12 of all time

Excellent jersey number for a Defenseman too. Both are about equal as far as measure of play.

 

[Delete99991]

You should examine Rinaldo's career.


Goul's upside isn't much different.

Neither is Leier's.

At least Goul fills an immediate need. This team has zero physical presence at forward, and I mean zero.

 

[kudymen]

I remember how useful his suspensions have been after bringing the coveted physical presence

 

[Striiker]

Oh man. Give it a rest.

Dude must be the worst +12 of all time

+/- is a completely useless stat.

The fact that it's even brought up shows how weak any arguments in Haggs favor are.

 

[AdamParrot]

Our biggest problems:

MacDonald
MANNING
Filppula
Lehterä
Weise
Hägg
Leier on the bench (he is great 4th liner)

And I really don't understand how someone can defend stupid Manning or non hockeyplayer Hägg, LOL. Are you blind, or?

 

[hatcher]

Energy is garbage if the player sucks. Example: Rinaldo.

Goul is an AHL bottom six player. He's going to get taken advantage of in the NHL.

No more then wires or leer.

 

[hatcher]

You hit when you don't have the puck, usually just after the player has passed it. What does that accomplish?


Look at Hagg. 2nd in the league in hits and absolutely awful. You know why he gets so many hits? Because he never has the puck. Then when he does get it, his peanut brain gives it right back (unless his partner saves him).

Look at the rest of the league hit leaders... very few of them are worth a damn.

I like a good hit as much as anyone, but when it comes to winning or losing hockey games, a player who only hits doesn't deserve a spot. If a player is a good hockey player AND hits, then great, I'm all for it... but that's not the case here so saying "well he hits!" is meaningless.

Hitting wears the teams down and that why there is more teams like the blues or Kings. Hitting is a huge part of the game that hurts dmen and as shown with our team when it gets hard hitting like pens started to do in the second period we folded and were knocked down lots.

 

[hatcher]

Oh man. Give it a rest.

Dude must be the worst +12 of all time

Hagg isn't perfect but he separates his man from the puck on the wall and will get better.

 

[Striiker]

Hitting wears the teams down and that why there is more teams like the blues or Kings. Hitting is a huge part of the game that hurts dmen and as shown with our team when it gets hard hitting like pens started to do in the second period we folded and were knocked down lots.

They "folded" after Elliott let in a bunch of weak goals. It had nothing to do with hitting.

If we have a player who can actually play hockey AND hit, then fine. But hitting by itself doesn't help the team win.

 

[Rebels57]

Oh man. Give it a rest.

Dude must be the worst +12 of all time

When his high PDO regresses to the norm, his plus/minus will regress right along with it.

 

[hatcher]

They "folded" after Elliott let in a bunch of weak goals. It had nothing to do with hitting.

If we have a player who can actually play hockey AND hit, then fine. But hitting by itself doesn't help the team win.

Leier brings nothing but goul will get in people's faces when they got our stars. Goul is on the pk learning and has the wheels to get break aways and had drawn the most pp for the phantoms. Only one fighting major to. Earned the right to play up on the big squad.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No more then wires or leer.

No, he's objectively worse at hockey.

 

[hatcher]

No not for the role.

 

[Striiker]

The "role" is helping the team win.

Leier is better at that.

 

[Curufinwe]

You should examine Rinaldo's career.


Goul's upside isn't much different.

Rinaldo was a penalty magnet, though. 95 minors in 223 games averaging 8:02 per game.

NHL.com - Stats

In the AHL, Goulbourne draws far more penalties than he commits.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Rinaldo was a penalty magnet, though. 95 minors in 223 games averaging 8:02 per game.

NHL.com - Stats

In the AHL, Goulbourne draws far more penalties than he commits.

In the span where Rinaldo drew more penalties than he took he was still a greater liability than he was a help.

 

[Delete99991]

+/- is useless, eh.

Literally saying that goals for and goals against are useless information.

I love this place

 

[FLYguy3911]

Jeff Schultz was +50 once.

 

[Delete99991]

Jeff Schultz was +50 once.

Yeah, on a loaded team that won 54 games.

Find me a bad player on a bad team that's a +12. There won't be many.

 

[Lindberg]

+/- is useless, eh.

Literally saying that goals for and goals against are useless information.

I love this place

Some people love to be all or nothing but I do think there is always some information to extract from +/- as a stat. The confirmation bias can be real here.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Don't have to think too hard. Dennis Seidenberg was on the street during training camp last year. Got signed and went +25 in 73 games last year. Got re-signed and he's been a healthy scratch much of the year.

Ironically Hagg and Dennis swapped +/- on that last goal.

 

[Delete99991]

Don't have to think too hard. Dennis Seidenberg was on the street during training camp last year. Got signed and went +25 in 73 games last year. Got re-signed and he's been a healthy scratch much of the year.

Ironically Hagg and Dennis swapped +/- on that last goal.

Well what you must be saying is that Seidenberg was lucky last year, or that Hagg has been lucky this year to be +12.

The other argument I hear - that of course he's a +12, he plays against the other team's weakest guys - seems silly. If he's that much better than those "weaker guys", then how bad is he really?

Anyway, the real issue here is the silly orgy of hatred directed at Hagg this year. He's played well for a rookie in my opinion.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Well what you must be saying is that Seidenberg was lucky last year, or that Hagg has been lucky this year to be +12.

107+ PDO as of last week is several notches into unsustainable unless he’s one of the biggest outliers in the history of sports. I don’t know for certain that he isn’t just as I don’t know for sure that the ISS isn’t plummeting toward my house. I know which way I would bet, though.

 

[FLYguy3911]

+/- isn't a good stat because it's not repeatable. To the Jeff Schultz example +50 one year, +6 the next, -2 the next, and soon enough out of the league.

There are two players that thrive in +/-. Guys that play on great teams and always have the territorial edge and guys that have unsustainable on ice shot and save percentages. And often those guys are the "safe" ones. The guys that can't collect minuses on the PP or 6v5, and can collect pluses on the PK and 5v6 situations. The greatest defenseman of this era is a career -33.

That TK goal is the perfect example of the flaw in the stat. 8 and 47 spend a minute chasing the puck in their own zone, puck eventually finds Couturier who flips to TK, goal. +1. If you played that situation out 100 times, that ends up as a goal for NYI a lot more than it does a goal for the Flyers.