Post-Game Talk: #38 | Flyers at Sharks | Friday, Dec. 30, 2016

[BringBackHakstol]

I'm definitely concerned that hak is not going to figure out this bottom 6. VDV and PEB are beyond proven to be feeble at this point. I always liked PEB but he really is not a good player

 

[TheKingPin]

The ultimate lineup optimization would be this imo:

Read - Schenn - Weise
Leier - Cousins - Lyubimov

Or

Read - Cousins - Schenn
Leier - Lyubimov - Weise

Neither will even happen though unfortunately. As it's going to take an injury to one of Bellemare or VandeVelde to come out of the lineup.

This would make for a competitive team. We have the pieces that could make things better but we aren't using them.

 

[OzFlyers]

I think we are on the way to a ten game losing streak now.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So it's looking like I wasn't wrong to be cool with keeping Gagner another year.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

So it's looking like I wasn't wrong to be cool with keeping Gagner another year.

I don't think it would have made a difference to be honest. He's in a better situation in Columbus than he was/would be here. He's playing in a third/fourth line role at ES & on their top PP unit there. Their bottom six is way better than ours & he wasn't seeing top PP unit time here either. The second PP unit has basically been a tire fire for almost five years now so really nobody has been able to do much there.

He's obviously riding a high shooting percentage right now that will even out as the year goes on but they still got bang for their buck regardless. Torts deserves some credit here. He has used Gagner in the best possible way to use a player like him. He gives him easy minutes in the bottom six with bigger guys who can get the puck like Hartnell while giving him a lot of PP time where he really makes a difference. He's not a bad player when he has time & space. He can make skilled plays in those situations but the way teams have used him in the past he was out of his weight class in most cases.

 

[OzFlyers]

So it's looking like I wasn't wrong to be cool with keeping Gagner another year.

I think Hextall felt that they needed a big grinding Hatcher type player which is why they signed Weise who has not lived up to expectations.

 

[dats81]

They have been using a top-heavy lineup all season. Now the top-6 have gone on a dry spell and they are shut out.

Paired with the always inconsistent defense they gonna lose a row of games until they get some lucky bounces again or a goalie goes incredibly hot again.

 

[Delete99991]

Leier getting ice over Konecny is such an egotistical, know-it-all move by Hakstol I'm almost glad they got shut out.

And playing A-Mac with Provorov is borderline criminal.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

I think Hextall felt that they needed a big grinding Hatcher type player which is why they signed Weise who has not lived up to expectations.

Yep, Weise is as much of a net front power forward type of guy as Gagner ever was.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

We aren't last in the league in goals allowed. That's at least something to hold on.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

There is zero chance we make the playoffs without Hextall modifying the D in some way. ZERO.

There are certain models that have flyers outside of playoffs, when looking at scoring chances % or high danger cf% it isn't all that surprising. One of them even has Toronto and Carolina above flyers.

 

[Curufinwe]

You'd think the Hak line got 17 minutes rather than 7 based on this thread.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Were basically losing ~15 goals a season because our bottom six sucks.

Having no-one on pace for over 30pts amongst the bottom six forwards production wise is pretty bad.


And when you examine it it sure seems like the centres causing it mainly... the winger numbers are not great, but they are not awful like the centres relative to good teams at those positions.

Remember a few years ago when we had all those 20 goal scorers?

 

[usahockey22flyers]

You'd think the Hak line got 17 minutes rather than 7 based on this thread.

Insane. Not sure what else people want out of PEB specifically

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Insane. Not sure what else people want out of PEB specifically

His scoring is awful & he isn't exactly a low event player either. He has 4 points while playing in all 38 games this year & hasn't been used exclusively as a 4C thoughout the year either as he's been a 3C at times as well. He's basically a replacement level player being given way more opportunities than his talent is & has suggested to this point.

Hak will continue to shuffle pieces around to fit him & VandeVelde into the lineup & in their roles. All while the Flyers will continue to assuredly have a bad bottom 6 & PK because of it.

 

[GKJ]

I'm definitely concerned that hak is not going to figure out this bottom 6. VDV and PEB are beyond proven to be feeble at this point. I always liked PEB but he really is not a good player

Bellemare is a better suited winger, especially given that's his natural position.

 

[Curufinwe]

Insane. Not sure what else people want out of PEB specifically

They want more points which is fair enough when he's being used as a 2c/3C, but he's not anymore. Last night's lineup with ES ice times.

Raffl(16:31)-Giroux(18:22)-Voracek(18:34)
Leier(11:10)-Schenn-(13:39)-Simmonds(13:55)
Cousins(10:58)-Couturier(13:58)-Weise(14:40)
VdV(7:04)-Bellemare(7:31)-Gordon(5:52)

I wouldn't have benched Konecny, I would have tried him at RW with Coots and dropped Weise to 4RW, but clearly the main issue last night was the zero goals generated by the top 9. Not a 4th line that barely got on the ice.

 

[Rebels57]

They want more points which is fair enough when he's being used as a 2c/3C, but he's not anymore. Last night's lineup with ES ice times.

Raffl(16:31)-Giroux(18:22)-Voracek(18:34)
Leier(11:10)-Schenn-(13:39)-Simmonds(13:55)
Cousins(10:58)-Couturier(13:58)-Weise(14:40)
VdV(7:04)-Bellemare(7:31)-Gordon(5:52)

I wouldn't have benched Konecny, I would have tried him at RW with Coots and dropped Weise to 4RW, but clearly the main issue last night was the zero goals generated by the top 9. Not a 4th line that barely got on the ice.

I agree with your idea on Konecny. The top 9 not scoring wasnt the ONLY issue though. MacDonald costing us 2 goals (with help from MDZ on the 1st) and the puck dying on his stick in the offensive zone every single time was also a factor.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

People want him to stop ****ing up. That's the issue with all our bad players. They all make horrible **** ups. They never have quiet games.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

They want more points which is fair enough when he's being used as a 2c/3C, but he's not anymore. Last night's lineup with ES ice times.

Raffl(16:31)-Giroux(18:22)-Voracek(18:34)
Leier(11:10)-Schenn-(13:39)-Simmonds(13:55)
Cousins(10:58)-Couturier(13:58)-Weise(14:40)
VdV(7:04)-Bellemare(7:31)-Gordon(5:52)

I wouldn't have benched Konecny, I would have tried him at RW with Coots and dropped Weise to 4RW, but clearly the main issue last night was the zero goals generated by the top 9. Not a 4th line that barely got on the ice.

His consistent refusal to drop the Wonder Twins has a ripple effect on the lineup, though, and that's where the problem with them comes in. We all know they are a limited black hole of a pair offensively, they're not world-beaters defensively, and when he slots them in game after game without end, better players have to sit, players who have the potential - only slightly better than the pair of them, but better - to score. These problems are exaggerated by all of us, of course, and that's because we are frustrated that we don't have better players yet. There is that old expression "You can only beat the team that is in front of you" - for us, it's "You can only b**** about the players in front of you." When they are gone, we will find someone else to b**** about because that's the nature of passionate, hot-blooded people following something passionately. But that doesn't mean that they aren't a detriment to us now, because they are.

 

[PK16]

I don't know how you can watch that goal and think it is mainly on Giroux.

Everyone should 'shuffle' over in effect. Provorov had his man, Giroux was going to the trailer like a center should, AMac should have gone to the man on the other side, or at least got into the lane between!

Giroux's only fault was he did not realise AMac's folly early enough, so when he tried to make up for the initial play came up short, as he did not have enough time to get there then.


It is pretty infuriating in any sport when you have to go twice the distance you should to someone who is not technically 'your' man on the play when if everyone had shuffled across like they should it is two people going a similar distance instead of one going the distance for both.

I agree with this analysis. It looks to me that this is primarily AMac's fault, as he gets caught pinching and is out of position to cover. With that being said, G is at fault as well and looks to me like he realizes it such that if he continues skating at the same speed, he may have been in position to take the pass or at least discourage Pavelski from making the pass.

From my experience, the center or any other forward for that matter, is not necessarily so scripted in their defensive role such that a responsibility like worrying about covering the trailer, outweighs trying to make a play that you are in the best position to attempt to make. IMO, G has the potential to make a play here and try to fix AMac's mess and the effort is not all that great. In either case AMac is the one puts G and the team into this scenario.

 

[Rebels57]

His consistent refusal to drop the Wonder Twins has a ripple effect on the lineup, though, and that's where the problem with them comes in. We all know they are a limited black hole of a pair offensively, they're not world-beaters defensively, and when he slots them in game after game without end, better players have to sit, players who have the potential - only slightly better than the pair of them, but better - to score. These problems are exaggerated by all of us, of course, and that's because we are frustrated that we don't have better players yet. There is that old expression "You can only beat the team that is in front of you" - for us, it's "You can only b**** about the players in front of you." When they are gone, we will find someone else to b**** about because that's the nature of passionate, hot-blooded people following something passionately. But that doesn't mean that they aren't a detriment to us now, because they are.

Exactly.

There is not one shred of evidence or semblance of logic for VandeVelde playing over Lyubimov, for instance. He kills him in the eye test and he surpasses him in every advanced stat. In fact, Lube is 6th in the team in both G/60 and SA/60. Our PK sucks with VdV on it so him being in the lineup for that reason is a joke. Lube would be an upgrade to VdV at both ES and PK and it obvious to everyone but the head coach. That is concerning..and it is just one player decision in a list of many.

Konecny scratched for Gordon and MacDonald playing more than Ghost is the cherry on top of Hakstocks Famous **** Cake.

 

[Bob Clarke Fan Club]

Secret's out, stay out of the box and play well in the neutral zone and you can beat the Flyers.

 

[TCTC]

They aren't a detriment. When we're blaming 4th liners for not scoring a goal against the Sharks, we're just looking for easy scapegoats.
The inability of the top players to score a goal at ES is the real problem. We're a good offensive team, when our PP gets us going. When it doesn't, we see games like last night.

 

[SuchySays]

Poor Vlasic wishes Ghost could hit the net.