25 under 25 - HF Edition - #4

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Gotta be Hart here. The rest of the players are nothing but potential and his is the highest.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's Sanheim.

Sandheim stole a "d" from Simmons.

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

People are sleeping on Phil Myers in this thread

 

[Rebels57]

People are sleeping on Phil Myers in this thread

Would you have him over anyone voted for yet?

 

[TB87]

Sanheim has pretty great hockey IQ... I would say better than Myers for example.

Myers is basically a slightly less talented Sanheim who is more physical and a righty... he might even play a riskier game, pinch more and take more chance. But because he is physical people mistake that for being superior defensively.

Don't get me wrong, I think Myers (sans injuries) is a #4 in future at worst, but I have no clue how such a disparate general consensus in some sections of the Flyers fan-base has came about in regards to them. They are very similar players stylistically.

And they have ten months difference in age, played on the same team for parts of last season, on the same pairing at times, and Sanheim was the superior player at both ends... despite not being as physically mature.

What improvements would you like to see from Myers before he gets called-up to the Flyers?

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

Would you have him over anyone voted for yet?

Yes. But if I say his name, another massive debate will breakout.

 

[pit]

Sandheim stole a "d" from Simmons.

He heard someone on HFBoards was ragging him for his lack of D, so even though he disagreed he put one right in the middle of his name to make his point.

Luckily for him, Any Elmore had left two of them in the corner of the dressing room.

 

[Appleyard]

What improvements would you like to see from Myers before he gets called-up to the Flyers?

I think he is ready to play in the NHL now.

Consistency is maybe the biggest area to improve in. He can have really poor games even in the AHL where bad plays compound.

But tbh I would not want them to coach any of the aggression and that instinct to jump into plays out of him, as the net gains are great (like with Ghost for example... or Brent Burns. The reward outweighs the risk over bigger samples.)

Funny actually, I just thought that with Myers, Hogberg and Friedman they have three defensive prospects who really already have an NHL skillset and an ability level that would not be out of place in the NHL. All three just need to keep maturing and be more consistent.

 

[BernieParent]

People are sleeping on Phil Myers in this thread

Myers ability to stay healthy is my concern with him.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Myers ability to stay healthy is my concern with him.

Seems like the problem may be that people are sleeping on him - that's a lot of pressure on a body during REM cycle.

 

[BernieParent]

Seems like the problem may be that people are sleeping on him - that's a lot of pressure on a body during REM cycle.

Poor kid. First, photo evidence he can't afford air conditioning and now his inability to sleep unaccosted.

 

[FLYguy3911]

You guys are nuts with this vote.

 

[Stizzle]

You guys are nuts with this vote.

I tried to tell them. They don't listen.

 

[Rebels57]

You guys are nuts with this vote.

I tried to tell them. They don't listen.

Assuming both reach their potential, does that mean that you feel that peak Sanheim is more valuable to the Flyers than peak Hart?

 

[Magua]

Assuming both reach their potential

I would assume *ahem* that's their issue. You can't just make that assumption and dismiss the bird in hand, which is to say their floor. They might also think the value of a top pair defender, which they think Sanheim can and will be (and he's already shown he can be top 4), is greater and less replaceable than the value of a top 10 goalie or whatever.

To be honest, goalies are voodoo, but Hart has done unprecedented things. I don't know if I'd vote Hart #4, but I don't have as much an issue voting him #4. Sanheim's usage might not be maximized here (at all strengths), and that's something to consider also. Fire Hakstok.

 

[baudib1]

It's a pretty close call; obviously any of us would trade Sanheim before Hart but Sanheim is already a good NHL player. As far as proving he deserves second-pair minutes, he's already done that in my mind. When he played he was easily a top 10 skater on the team and no worse than the third-best defenseman on the team.

(Sanheim is also at the point where it's probably actively detrimental for him to play in the AHL where he has proven to be far too good for the league.)

Pretending he was worse than that is intellectually dishonest.

 

[Stizzle]

Assuming both reach their potential, does that mean that you feel that peak Sanheim is more valuable to the Flyers than peak Hart?

I probably posted 5 times in the Under 25 #2 thread about this. Refer to that.

It's a pretty close call; obviously any of us would trade Sanheim before Hart

This place is nuts.

 

[Rebels57]

I probably posted 5 times in the Under 25 #2 thread about this. Refer to that.



This place is nuts.

I just don't understand how any fan of the Flyers, whose goaltending carousel has been the laughing stock of the entire NHL for 30 years, would be confused as to why a potential solution for this 3 decade long problem would be held in higher esteem than a top 4 defensemen.

 

[Striiker]

I would assume *ahem* that's their issue. You can't just make that assumption and dismiss the bird in hand, which is to say their floor. They might also think the value of a top pair defender, which they think Sanheim can and will be (and he's already shown he can be top 4), is greater and less replaceable than the value of a top 10 goalie or whatever.

To be honest, goalies are voodoo, but Hart has done unprecedented things. I don't know if I'd vote Hart #4, but I don't have as much an issue voting him #4. Sanheim's usage might not be maximized here (at all strengths), and that's something to consider also. Fire Hakstok.

Meltdown incoming.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Assuming both reach their potential, does that mean that you feel that peak Sanheim is more valuable to the Flyers than peak Hart?

I just don't understand how any fan of the Flyers, whose goaltending carousel has been the laughing stock of the entire NHL for 30 years, would be confused as to why a potential solution for this 3 decade long problem would be held in higher esteem than a top 4 defensemen.

Could the goalie carousel have anything to do with the lack of defensemen this team has developed over the years? The thing is, if Sanheim ain't shit, Carter Hart probably ain't going to be shit either. Goalies are products of the teams in front of them, specifically the top 4. Look around the league. Any goalie that is worth a damn plays on a team with a strong top 4. I think many would agree Carey Price has probably been the best goalie (or one of the best) in the league during this decade. If you put slop in front of Carey Price like last year, you're going to get slop results. You could point to Lundqvist as well. Rinne has proven to be the franchise goalie for Nashville. You're nuts if you think he is more valuable than any of Josi, Subban, Ekholm, or Ellis. You put Saros in there, the train keeps on moving without Rinne.

I like Hart as much as the next person, but goalie development is weird. And despite the fabulous track record, he's not some transcendent talent with rare size and movement skills that allows me to set a high enough floor that I can overlook all of the risks that come with Junior goalies translating to the pro game (and the CHL's track record has not exactly been good). I know Hart had a season for the ages, but Sanheim also had a low-key historic season of his own in the same league at the same age with no supporting cast.

I think by saying Sanheim is just a top 4 defensemen, you're not really acknowledging his true talent level. I think he may have the most raw talent of anyone on this list. I acknowledge [lack of] usage may prevent him from reaching his ultimate upside, but Hakstol doesn't exactly have a stellar track record of managing goalies either (or younger players in general). If people don't think Sanheim is top 3, that's fair. But valuing a Junior goalie over him seems like fantasy land to me. Set the AHL on fire first.

 

[baudib1]

Could the goalie carousel have anything to do with the lack of defensemen this team has developed over the years? The thing is, if Sanheim ain't ****, Carter Hart probably ain't going to be **** either.

The Flyers had Pronger and Kimmo playing 30 minutes a night and got to the Finals with terrible goaltending. The Flyers have had terrible goaltending, period.

No one is saying Travis Sanheim is shit and that statement is an obvious fallacy. The success or failure of one has nothing to do with the other.

Travis Sanheim was a high pick and has played as well as anyone could have expected. Carter Hart has been a historically great juniors goalie. There's a big difference between the two.

 

[FLYguy3911]

The Flyers had Pronger and Kimmo playing 30 minutes a night and got to the Finals with terrible goaltending. The Flyers have had terrible goaltending, period.

You just proved my point. They got to the finals with a journeyman minor league goaltender. He posted a .948 SV% heading into the Finals in large part because of that defense. Below-average goaltending (i.e. not a journeyman minor league goalie) wins that series. Hell Chicago let Niemi walk after that series.

Part of the reason that core couldn't sustain their success, among other things, was because Coburn and Carle couldn't maintain their levels of play and they had no depth behind those guys. Sanheim and Myers project to be better than Coburn and Carle and the depth in the system is light years better than the early part of this decade.

No one is saying Travis Sanheim is **** and that statement is an obvious fallacy. The success or failure of one has nothing to do with the other.

You misinterpreted. I'm assuming people didn't vote Sanheim in this spot because of his limited NHL track record and that this spot was primarily voted on based upon perceived upside. I'm saying if Sanheim flops, Carter Hart's job gets a lot more difficult.

You're saying if Sanheim is not good, that has no impact on Carter Hart?!

Travis Sanheim was a high pick and has played as well as anyone could have expected. Carter Hart has been a historically great juniors goalie. There's a big difference between the two.

What is the big difference between the two other than that one already has had success as a professional and plays a position where it is easier to project successful NHL players?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

As I've said every time I bring this up, Hart has done nothing but impress. I don't want this to come across as ripping him as a prospect, because I'm not.

I would stop calling you nuts for voting him at 5 even if I wouldn't put him there, but no, I'm not going to put him above a high-end prospect who essentially already hit at the NHL level and frankly I don't understand the mindset. Leave that for the exceptions like Summer 2017 Nolan Patrick.

Let's talk about the unprecedented things Carter Hart did. How much value do those actually hold? Now obviously the quality of play is the key, but that's not what we're talking about when we throw around unprecedented. We're talking about winning CHL Goalie of the Year Awards and last year's numbers. I would encourage you to look at the list of the formers and try to give me any meaning at all from it. I also would not hold up hockey media's opinion as proof that the sky is blue, but I know not everyone will agree there. As far as the latter, he allowed 65 Goals on 1233 Shots last year for Everett. That's undeniably excellent by any measure, but the difference between unprecedented and "just" an all-time great season is ~12 Goals spread out over the entire year. That's way too far into my tolerance for variance for me to call him the exception to every rule.

I know how this will be met, but he's not even the undeniably consensus #1 Goalie Prospect right now, let alone a once a generation type of guy. He's got some more steps to make at an incredibly volatile position. Let him take them in stride first. In some ways, this reminds me of voting for Morin last year because he still had

 

[Striiker]

I don't know why people are arguing Hart vs Sanheim when the real travesty is Laughton not being in the top 3.

 

[baudib1]

You misinterpreted. I'm assuming people didn't vote Sanheim in this spot because of his limited NHL track record and that this spot was primarily voted on based upon perceived upside. I'm saying if Sanheim flops, Carter Hart's job gets a lot more difficult.

You're saying if Sanheim is not good, that has no impact on Carter Hart?!



What is the big difference between the two other than that one already has had success as a professional and plays a position where it is easier to project successful NHL players?

1. Sanheim isn't going to flop, he's already a successful NHL player.
2. Even if he did flop, it doesn't really impact Carter Hart.

You're talking about great defense masking the performance of a mediocre goalie or something like that, which gives the illusion of having a better goalie than you do. In reality the two things (defense, goaltending) are intertwined but it doesn't change the value of the goalie. Like if Carey Price is 12 goals a year better than an average goalie, he's +12 regardless of his defense. If his defense is +20 goals better than the next team, the team allows 32 fewer goals, but that doesn't change Carey Price's value.