Shocking take.
You don't understand the value of role players. We get it. No need to have at least one post on every page of every GDT saying the exact same thing.
GDT: 2023-24 season game 64 LA Kings vs New York Islanders @7:30pm 3/11/24
- Thread starter kingsboy11
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Shocking take.
You don't understand the value of role players. We get it. No need to have at least one post on every page of every GDT saying the exact same thing.
tny760
Registered User
- Mar 12, 2017
- 19,548
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let's be honest here, you have a propensity to do that too, as do i
AbsentMojo
F-ing get up and hunt! Cmon Todd!
Thats funny coming from you. I don't believe i've had that take before re Lewis and Lizotte. Im fine w roll players that contribute and are actually useful like Stoll was for the cup teams. My point is that the 4th line is a disaster something that hasnt been discussed before that I recall.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
For sure. When/if everyone is back, Turcotte is back in Ontario.
He'll probably stop with the 11/7, Moverare will sit and it will come down to if Grundstrom gets back in the lineup or not. Basically the opening night lineup except Arvidsson is in for Lewis/Grundstrom and Spence instead of Bjornfot.
I expect some injuries though with the heavier ice time distribution and the fact that other teams will start checking harder and more frequently as we get closer to the playoffs. Will be fortunate to get out of Edmonton on the 28th without someone hurt.
Definitely that 4th line took a hit when Lizotte got injured, and Grunsdstrom as well, before that they were one of the best.....
Again, 10 guys playing in the 3rd, not much of a choice.
Herby
Now I can die in peace
The Kings having an awesome fourth line a couple of years ago (Kaliyev- Lizotte- Lemieux) was nice while it lasted. You had an energy guy centering a goal-scorer and a guy with some toughness and they combined for 30 goals in 200 combined games and were one of the best fourth lines in the league.
Now it's back to the days of Nick Shore. With Lewis, JAD, Turcotte and Lizotte being offensive black holes for awhile now.
Have always hesrd it said that the nhl is not a developmental leauge. So were the young guys not developed in the ahl for their expected roles in the nhl? If this is the case then the consistent evident problems with the young guys play at the nhl level is an organizational failure.
Its also interested me as to why there is this great effort to seemingly stuff square pegs into round holes- see bjornfot (stay at home defensive defenseman NOW thier expected to be a rush scoring d man) and kaliyev natural scorer NOW youre to be a physical defensive checking forward.
Just two examples of the ass backward personell/develpmental/ useage methods of the kings.
Afew other favorites is the exclusive drafting of r handed d men- smallish scoring types on a d first team that has the same smallish speed scoring fwds. Arvidsson, moore, fiala. And of course we dint need no stinking goaltending on a defense first team.
JFC
Its also interested me as to why there is this great effort to seemingly stuff square pegs into round holes- see bjornfot (stay at home defensive defenseman NOW thier expected to be a rush scoring d man) and kaliyev natural scorer NOW youre to be a physical defensive checking forward.
Just two examples of the ass backward personell/develpmental/ useage methods of the kings.
Afew other favorites is the exclusive drafting of r handed d men- smallish scoring types on a d first team that has the same smallish speed scoring fwds. Arvidsson, moore, fiala. And of course we dint need no stinking goaltending on a defense first team.
JFC
AbsentMojo
F-ing get up and hunt! Cmon Todd!
I know its not at the top of list in terms of King's problems, but none of the lines are clicking and if you had a 4th line with an identity that could change momentum it would be very helpful. I think what Id like to see is some experimentation.. why not give A Thomas a look, he seems like a great 4th line type of guy chippy, hits, score occasional goal.. standing pat with Lewis, Lizo and X heading into the playoffs seems like its a downgrade from the weak one last season - which was some selection of JAD, Kupari, Lizo and Grundstrom.
kilowatt
the vibes are not immaculate
- Jan 1, 2009
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We will realistically be going 10/4 in the playoffs so a fourth line identity doesn’t even matter.
Byfield - Kopitar - Kempe
Moore - Danault - Fiala
Lizotte - Dubois - Laferriere
Lewis
Anderson - Doughty
Gavrikov - Roy
I’d be shocked to see any of the others get more than 10 minutes a game.
Byfield - Kopitar - Kempe
Moore - Danault - Fiala
Lizotte - Dubois - Laferriere
Lewis
Anderson - Doughty
Gavrikov - Roy
I’d be shocked to see any of the others get more than 10 minutes a game.
I rarely post in GDTs.
When I do, its usually in the first period then well after the game.
But oh yeah, I'll pile on on the other ones.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
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If you're going to criticize them for this, then you should at least acknowledge that they were probably the best 4th line in the league earlier in the season. And quite productive.
I like Lizotte, but he takes a beating, and as the season goes on his game starts to decline because of it.
They are key components to the best damn PK in the league. Offense is a bonus from them, the forechecking, defense and momentum swinging play is top notch. Its just not a concern at all, and replacing them with offensively minded kids who cough up the puck when not denting the glass isn't going to help anything.
AbsentMojo
F-ing get up and hunt! Cmon Todd!
I acknowledge that - it was clicking but so was the whole team. Also does that line as composed translate to the post season? You posted a nice graph on Lizo's annual decline.. which the team doesnt seem to realized. After seeing what EDM did to the 4th line last season playoffs (arguably also the result of EDM's 11/7) I think it shoudlve been addressed by now somehow or another.
That line was really impressive early before fading badly and being caved in on the regular. Lemieux burned out his welcome and that unit became problematic.
Offense is not what you need from those players.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
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- 15,080
Lizotte was injured. He was having back spasms. It was so bad he went 1 for 15 on face offs and had to sit out some games.
So I guess that proves what I've said about him all along. He's a great 4th line center and PK'er when healthy. But he gets too banged up during the season to maintain his play.
He starts the season as a Toyota Corolla; reliable, gets the job done, surprises you what a good car it is, but he ends the season as a broken down Ford Pinto.
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SaltyElkHunter
Grocery Shopping in the woods
I feel like it’s gonna be like this the rest of the year.
Yeahhh we beat the shit out of pretender… these guys suck we just got butt f***ed by a contender!
Yeahhh we beat the shit out of pretender… these guys suck we just got butt f***ed by a contender!
Grundstrom only shows up every 10 games
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
I actually like JAD more than most
buuuuut all of these arguments about 'won't actually hurt you' collapse on themselves when he's getting middle six time and Kaliyev is getting a handful of defensive minutes on the bottom line. Remember Clarke's first game where he ONLY palyed with the 4th line and got ZERO offensive zone starts? "ah yeah he needs to work on his defense" well everyone but the coaching staff seems to know he's not ME Vlasic, but here we are.
Like yes, we're not stupid, we get that Kaliyev has to have a baseline defensive ability, but if you're using him as ONLY a stopper and NOT on the PP or with skilled offensive players and ozone starts, it seems dishonest to criticize him as a liability while letting 'low event' guys like JAD skate simply because they're not doing anything at all...i'd argue a guy like that skating 2nd/3rd line IS actively hurting you with his dogshit pts/60, that's a waste of ozone starts. Not HIS fault of course--its' just stupid usage--just like it's stupid usage of Kaliyev. I don't see why both things can't be true.
Hell guys like JAD and Lewis with brick hands do well in limited minutes because they equalize the game by mucking the puck around and bouncing it everywhere, airing out the skill guys. But a guy who needs high touches? What do you think he's gonna do when his hands are cold from sitting on the bench for 10 minutes, and low confidence because the staff is electroshocking him every time he doesn't cover someone else's check?
Its a VERY flimsy argument to suggest Lewis on the 1st line 'doesn't hurt you.'
buuuuut all of these arguments about 'won't actually hurt you' collapse on themselves when he's getting middle six time and Kaliyev is getting a handful of defensive minutes on the bottom line. Remember Clarke's first game where he ONLY palyed with the 4th line and got ZERO offensive zone starts? "ah yeah he needs to work on his defense" well everyone but the coaching staff seems to know he's not ME Vlasic, but here we are.
Like yes, we're not stupid, we get that Kaliyev has to have a baseline defensive ability, but if you're using him as ONLY a stopper and NOT on the PP or with skilled offensive players and ozone starts, it seems dishonest to criticize him as a liability while letting 'low event' guys like JAD skate simply because they're not doing anything at all...i'd argue a guy like that skating 2nd/3rd line IS actively hurting you with his dogshit pts/60, that's a waste of ozone starts. Not HIS fault of course--its' just stupid usage--just like it's stupid usage of Kaliyev. I don't see why both things can't be true.
Hell guys like JAD and Lewis with brick hands do well in limited minutes because they equalize the game by mucking the puck around and bouncing it everywhere, airing out the skill guys. But a guy who needs high touches? What do you think he's gonna do when his hands are cold from sitting on the bench for 10 minutes, and low confidence because the staff is electroshocking him every time he doesn't cover someone else's check?
Its a VERY flimsy argument to suggest Lewis on the 1st line 'doesn't hurt you.'
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AbsentMojo
F-ing get up and hunt! Cmon Todd!
I think the key component was changing from the triangle + 1 to the diamond. Lewis is out there what maybe 1/3 to 1/2 max of the PK? I concede he is a very solid PK guy... but everything else about him is mid... also how much fall off would there be if QB took his spot? I'd say none, and QB would probably be better. So no, I dont see much value in Lewis at all. My point here is if you have a 4th line without an identity and isnt doing much of anything positive, then try something new.
Herby
Now I can die in peace
Having an offensively capable fourth line helps make up for not having any game-breaking offensive players, which is the situation the Kings are in.
I do agree with you, in an ideal world you want to have enough scoring in the Top 9 where the fourth line isn't counted on for offense and can be filled with effective non-scoring players. But as this team is currently constructed they are going to need to get a couple of goals from the 4th line to beat any of the teams they are likely to play in Round 1.
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
The troubles with a depth roster.
Kings are most effective rolling 4 solid lines, keeping everyone fresh, especially with the vets they have. But that's not happening, and it significantly shallows out the roster.
They don't have the high-end firepower to have a stellar PP1 and loaded top line--there's no McDavid, mackinnon, Pettersson here. Byfield is coming into his own--but he's not there yet and may not be, and his current/next challenge is to deal with the newfound checking, teams are clearly keying in on him now. So who's our gamebreaker? Fiala? Hah, he's got a playoff rep to shake. Doughty? He'll have moments but he'll also have his hand full with defensive assignments. Sure, the idea is everyone pitches in, but that's why this roster hurts soooo badly losing one guy--ARvidsson is out and everything goes to shit. Kempe is out, cool, now we have one effective line and 2 low-scoring third lines. And for a defensive team, our goaltending is a prayer.
Not being able to roll 4 lines is the biggest reason we're a first round out. It's gonna be another 22 minutes for Kopitar, 30 minutes for doughty, deep in the 1st round trouncing when their legs can't keep up and 'the kids aren't ready' because we didn't let them be.
Yea thats why Lizotte shouldnt be double shifting as the 4c and first line winger. He was also double shifted as a 3rd line winger. We all saw him get caved playing up in the lineup in the playoffs. Its not right.
Lewis has playing on all lines also.
They are fine role players and penalty killers but you cant be serious defending the decision to put them in scoring roles.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
